Pumping on the Limiter

[DwaneHollands]

Hi Guys,

I've got a work in progress song that I'm writing.

http://www.hollands.com.au/R21Studios/A ... c_002e.mp3

Trying to get the big guitar sound in the chorus. Because I'm trying to get that 'drop a tonne of lead in the chorus' effect, I've got the guitars up pretty high. (I know probably too high for some people).

I've got a limiter on the master channel in Reaper to keep everything below 0.1db. But it's pumping a bit.

Should I be using a side chain of some sort to prevent that pumping effect? The limiter (plugin) I'm using doesn't appear to have one. And should I use a low cut on the side chain (once I find a limiter that has a side chain). What do people generally use for a sidechain signal, the kick drum?

Thanks for any help.

P.S. The french horn in the chorus is only for a guide vocal track to illustrate to the singer what she'll be singing.

[heathen]

What happens when you turn the limiter off? Where are the peak and RMS levels sitting? You really want your RMS levels around -18 to-16 dbfs and your peak levels around -5dbfs, before you worry about limiters. You want to make sure the mix sounds good without the limiter, if you turn the limiter off and the mix falls to pieces you really need to go back to the mix and work on each track and it's placement in the mix.

Each and every song has a loudness potential with regard to final limiting go past that and you're going to hear all sorts of nasty stuff. Which settings sound best on the limiter also? Going to -0.1 is usually not needed either really, you can limit and raise the output to any level with a brickwall limiter, say you just raise output gain to -2.0, once the track is processed/rendered with the limiter you can just turn the track up to -0.1 or whatever level you want.

Play with the limiter, even being a plugin it probably still has a sweet spot, somtimes processing and just turning up channel gain can sound better than using a plugin or hardware comp/limiter/eq/whatevers gain makeup. The gain makeup on the Smart C2 is very average sounding for instance, where the gain makeup on the Pendulum limiter is superb. Not everything boosts level equally, some things are way better than others.

All this being said try a faster release time on the limiter.

[Gian]

I played this on my iMac.

In the intro/verse part the main guitar riff (IMO) is placed too far left such that I was distracted by it.
This did not occur during the chorus; the chorus sounded more balanced.

[mark rachelle]

too much low energy on the synth in the chorus alson it might be nice to put a high string up an octave with the horn synth to get a better arrangement and less clutter

you need to make some room for the extra gtrs so try dumping some low mids on the horn synth

drums are over compressed and the snare needs a few more db in the 3 to 6 k region to cut through

loose the limiter
its making things sound over cooked

forget engineering the record, make music / arrangement first

[chribble]

In my opinion the guitar sounds very dry and the drums very wet in comparison

ofcourse this will sound different with vocals but the drum buss is already pretty hammered. and yeah i'd ease of the panning and take a broad q to that synth and perhaps wet that up

[DwaneHollands]

What happens when you turn the limiter off? Where are the peak and RMS levels sitting? You really want your RMS levels around -18 to-16 dbfs and your peak levels around -5dbfs, before you worry about limiters.
All this being said try a faster release time on the limiter.

OK, I've been running way over that. I might have to bring everything down a heap first to get it into the -5bdfs peak.

[DwaneHollands]

I played this on my iMac.

In the intro/verse part the main guitar riff (IMO) is placed too far left such that I was distracted by it.
This did not occur during the chorus; the chorus sounded more balanced.

hmm, you're right. Just played it on my iMac just then. I must have bumped the pan slider. I'll check that!

Thanks for listening BTW!

[DwaneHollands]

too much low energy on the synth in the chorus alson it might be nice to put a high string up an octave with the horn synth to get a better arrangement and less clutter

Yeah, that's only a guide for the vocalist so she can learn the melody. I've kinda ignored that. But I hear ya about pulling out some lows on that.

drums are over compressed and the snare needs a few more db in the 3 to 6 k region to cut through

Yeah, I think the overheads are really squashed, I'll check that and back it off. The kick sounds a little doughy aswell. Thanks for the tip about the 3-6k bump on the snare. I'll check that out. Was kinda relying on the direct snare and the overhead snare sound to blend for the ambience. But I'll check that out once I back the comp off.

loose the limiter, its making things sound over cooked

Yeah, I think because I was running over on my peak meters that I was using the limiter to bring them under -0.1. Hitting red on a bunch of meters. Tell me off, so I know to practice better mixing habits!

forget engineering the record, make music / arrangement first

I suppose I was wanting to see if I could get that big guitar sound so it carried the song. My original vision is to (as always with me) add lots of orchestration to this to dress it up and separate it from the norm a bit. So I'll need to make sure those instruments aren't too low heavy to keep enough room for the big guitars and bass.

The original plan for this is to be used as a backing track for a rap group. 2 guy rappers and 1 girl singer. ha! They're performing saturday week, and we're still writing lyrics, so it should be interesting! (and I'm leaving friday to go to brisbane for a few days so I won't even see it....if we can complete it on time!)

[DwaneHollands]

In my opinion the guitar sounds very dry and the drums very wet in comparison. ofcourse this will sound different with vocals but the drum buss is already pretty hammered. and yeah i'd ease of the panning and take a broad q to that synth and perhaps wet that up

Yeah I think because I squashed the overheads too much to get that ambience up it's made the drums very wet. I'll see how it sounds once I ease that off a bit.

[heathen]

Yeah tell you off allright for bad levels geez Dwayne!!!

One of the biggest mistakes most people starting out make is wrong levels, which screw everything up. Turn your monitors up to a decent level and you won't be pushing thing into the red all the time. Turn your monitors way up.

When tracking, your peak levels don't need to be high at all, say -10 abouts, this is where you can get into trouble, track too loud then turn everything down is NOT the way to go, practice getting the levels right before even pressing record and you'll have less trouble with nasty shit like clipping and limiter splats.

Gain structure is everything, takes time but it's worth doing and checking. Calibrating your monitors is the best way to go, plenty of info on this in gs mastering section.

[DwaneHollands]

Yeah tell you off allright for bad levels geez Dwayne!!!

One of the biggest mistakes most people starting out make is wrong levels, which screw everything up. Turn your monitors up to a decent level and you won't be pushing thing into the red all the time. Turn your monitors way up.

When tracking, your peak levels don't need to be high at all, say -10 abouts, this is where you can get into trouble, track too loud then turn everything down is NOT the way to go, practice getting the levels right before even pressing record and you'll have less trouble with nasty shit like clipping and limiter splats.

Gain structure is everything, takes time but it's worth doing and checking. Calibrating your monitors is the best way to go, plenty of info on this in gs mastering section.

Awesome advice Heath! I've been researching this on GS with the K System. Fascinating stuff. So I'm thinking of running the K-20 system. Just a quick question or two?

So I've downloaded the -20 Pink Noise from Bob Katz's digido site. I'm to import that into my DAW (reaper).

1. Run it at unity gain in the DAW.
2. Only have one monitor speaker switched on, while I play back the pink noise.
3. Run my mBOX2 monitor level at maximum.
3. Measure it with an SPL meter with C weighting with SLOW response.
4. Adjust my be!@#$%^& Monitor Volume on the speaker until it registers 83db.
5. Repeat for the other speaker.

Then whenever I have my monitor level on my MBOX set at maximum, I'm working in K-20? Have I understood that correctly?

I'm not sure if this is dodgy or not but I can't track down an SPL meter locally. I bought a cheap app on the iphone 'supposedly' more accurate than a radio shack meter. Will that be ok?

Cheers!

[Chinagraf]

Hey Dwayne, I think you're making it overcomplicated for yourself. That K system thing is an effort to standardise litening levels for music the way levels are standardized for cinema movies. It never will work because you can't control the level the listener has it at like you can in a cinema. Music is completely different and this is where Bob Katz is looking through rose coloured glasses.
You need to listen at a variety of levels and be aware of the Fletcher Munson curve and how it affects what you hear at what level. Just record things with an average of around -10 like Heath suggests. Make all your instrument balance decisions with the moitoring whisper quiet. Mix at a general level where you can still hold a conversation. Turn it up louuuuddd now and then to check for nasties that overload the system.
I think the main point Heath is making is don't record to disk too hot and don't have your main stereo buss mega hot.

[heathen]

Exactly, I agree the k system is overcomplicated though the k 14 is probably a better allrounder type approach for music (hell call it "The Dwaneman 14" might as well) , as Andy suggests pick a few different levels, also if you mark them out you can get more consistent results. Let's call it a rough calibration.

Do get to know the Fletcher-Munson curve too as suggested, very important.

All this just takes a bit of practice and patience.

You know what I'm getting at though, it does make sense.

[heathen]

You don't want to fatigue your ears either though. Being comfy mixing and listening is important too.

[DwaneHollands]

Hi Heath/Andy,

I like the part where Bob says that when you're mixing with K-20 (or Dwaneman 20 as I like to refer to it. ha ha) you're liberated from meter reading while mixing. Other comments were that it helps to prevent you from over compressing stuff.

I'm gonna try and do it. I suppose it's good to try a standard that someone else is using. I'll see if I can mark off the DM-14 and DM-12 on my little MBOX2. So I have 'some' standard to work with.

I guess it's something to aim for...

[DwaneHollands]

Oh yeah I started to research the Fletcher-Munson loudness study. If I understand it correctly it has the phon standard set at 1Khz and after they measured peoples perception of other frequencies to match the loudness of the 1Khz tone, they plotted the graph.

To summarise, it's easier to hear the balance of bass at louder volumes - ideally around 90db. (however, room accoustics will obviously affect that and cause problems if not ideal). However, you don't necessarily need loud volumes to check the balance of higher frequencies.

I really love mixing loud...but I'm going to have to fix that I think. Like you said Andy, get the balance of instruments whisper quiet. I'm going to have to discipline myself to do that!

[DwaneHollands]

OK I did the 83db thing with the pink noise and the left and right speakers...

But I had to turn my monitor speaker's down... I was previous running the monitor speakers at half level....then I had to turn them down another quarter...

Hmmm, I don't think it's any better to mix with. I think you idea Heath of having the monitors up loud will most likely force me not to compress so much and run 'cooler' levels in the DAW.

Probably keep me turning the levels down as if I'm at full volume on these monitors, it would blow my head off!

Again, I need to be turning right down like Andy said to check balance.

83db is pretty quiet. But the Fletcher-Munson scale says that 90db is about right for checking bass etc. Perhaps I'll calibrate and have the 90db, 83db etc etc.

[DwaneHollands]

To Clarify I meant have the monitor speakers at max and when the mbox is giving 100% volume it would be super loud. But I'd put markers on the MBOX's monitor knob for difference SPL levels that I've calibrated with pink noise.
(previous post was a little vague and sounded contradictory)

[heathen]

Yeah my main point was tracking lower levels and mixing with running lower channel levels so you're not clipping the stereo buss or any plugins on individual channels either.

A lot of people use clipping to good effect on some things, but it's best avoided unless you're looking for a particular sound. When you're summing tracks together on the stereo buss they all add up in level, so my main point was getting levels right while still tracking and trying to keep the stereo buss levels within a certain range on mixdown.

-18rms and -4 or -5 peak was just a rough guideline too. Regarding compresion with all of this too I would'nt say I find myself compressing lots less but I do use a lot less make up gain from the comp when working this way, I find myself using comps for the gain control and punch factor and not using them to make things way louder such as the squish and boost loud approach.

[DwaneHollands]

Hey Heath,

Sorry I missed your post!

I just turned up my monitors to max and have been mixing like for the moment. Turning down (nothing calibrated as such) to check levels etc.

That other song has been put on back burner. But this song is the one I've mixed having my monitors up louder. Haven't had any clipping meters (particularly on the master buss). So that's different!

I did put a limiter on this but with not much makeup gain. Tried not to squish it too much.

I wonder:
http://www.hollands.com.au/R21Studios/A ... _final.mp3

This is for a live concert for a hip-hop duo with a female singer. Rap comes in after the drums come in.

As always comments...

[heathen]

Quite a bit better, were'nt the big comp/limit splats like in the other track, was much cleaner and bigger sounding. I had a listen on my good monitors, main things which annoyed me were there is a lot of congestion when the orchestral part builds up before the drums, too much upper low mids sounded like to me. Synths were sort of too loud compared to the drums and a bit dominating, that limiter is'nt doing you any favours........yet.

What reverb are you using? That was the main thing annoying me, very metallic, maybe try using shorter decay times on the reverb so it does'nt build up too much over everything, it really can muddle things up when verb times are too long.

If you can run/afford Altiverb I reckon it's one of the best plugins available or it was, but yeah it's got some superb patches in it and really sounds fantastic to me.

Anyway much better clipping and dynamics wise, balance, fx, and freq content are just something that takes time to perfect.

I'm a fussy bastard hey? :)

[DwaneHollands]

Quite a bit better, were'nt the big comp/limit splats like in the other track, was much cleaner and bigger sounding. I had a listen on my good monitors, main things which annoyed me were there is a lot of congestion when the orchestral part builds up before the drums, too much upper low mids sounded like to me. Synths were sort of too loud compared to the drums and a bit dominating, that limiter is'nt doing you any favours........yet.

What reverb are you using? That was the main thing annoying me, very metallic, maybe try using shorter decay times on the reverb so it does'nt build up too much over everything, it really can muddle things up when verb times are too long.

If you can run/afford Altiverb I reckon it's one of the best plugins available or it was, but yeah it's got some superb patches in it and really sounds fantastic to me.

Anyway much better clipping and dynamics wise, balance, fx, and freq content are just something that takes time to perfect.

I'm a fussy bastard hey? :)

Thanks for your comments Heath. Always appreciated! Yeah I was using the Free Bricasti M7 impulse Responses with Free LAConvolver convolution plugin. However, it doesn't allow me to adjust decay times! Yes, It's a bit frustrating as I was trying to put them 'in the room' but the decay times were too long.

Yeah I hear the Altiverb gets mentioned a lot. I know it's all the rage on the Garritan forum. I might need to bite the bullet.

i think it's the double bass and the timpani which is probably muddy-ing up the low end too. (again trying to put them back in a room - but not being able to adjust the decay times)

Thanks for listening Heath!

[chrisjw]

Yeah I was using the Free Bricasti M7 impulse Responses with Free LAConvolver convolution plugin. However, it doesn't allow me to adjust decay times! Yes, It's a bit frustrating as I was trying to put them 'in the room' but the decay times were too long.

If you want to shorten the decay without forking out for Altiverb just edit the impuse file by fading out the end to suit the decay required.

Cheers

[a.beck]

Does anyone else hear a lot of phase weirdness going on in this track? It makes my head feel inside-out.

[DwaneHollands]

Yeah I was using the Free Bricasti M7 impulse Responses with Free LAConvolver convolution plugin. However, it doesn't allow me to adjust decay times! Yes, It's a bit frustrating as I was trying to put them 'in the room' but the decay times were too long.

If you want to shorten the decay without forking out for Altiverb just edit the impuse file by fading out the end to suit the decay required.

Cheers

Thanks Chris! Excellent point! Will try that out!

(I was mucking around with sonicbirth plugin tool to try and create a decay system. Talk about over complicated!)

[DwaneHollands]

Does anyone else hear a lot of phase weirdness going on in this track? It makes my head feel inside-out.

Yeah, I'm guessing you're referring to the first track. (metal guitars etc).

I was using a trick I learnt to try and get a wide sound. Duplicate the track. Pan one left, other right. Reverse the polarity of one.

Instant wideness. But it has a major flaw. When it sums to mono, they cancel each other out. So very impractical. I'll leave that one behind I think.

Got my JCM 800 2 x 12 combo into my project studio the other night. Together with the JMP-1 preamp. I haven't mic'd an amp for ages. (usually just amplitube 2). My room's pretty rotten sounding, and just used a calibration mic I got with the IK multimedia ARC system. Straight into the MBOX2 preamp.

Just some quick dirty testing. The result was pretty smeared. I eq'd it heaps to remove some sibilance and to clean it up, and then threw some Neve impulse responses that I downloaded recently. There was a stereo widener on there aswell.

But I ended up panning the live guitar right and the amplitube 2 guitars left. The guitars are very, very load in this snippet. Drums aren't fixed yet. Bass is a little too soft too.

anyway, no more phase reversal junk in this.
http://www.hollands.com.au/R21Studios/A ... ic2b_2.mp3

[heathen]

Jcm 800 niiiiiice! What are you micing the amp with? I'm not that great at tracking electric guits either, can take a lot of time and patience to get it right.

I've found most stereo wideners suck, they really bugger things up, just pan them way out. To get a bit of extra wideness you could try copying the guitar tracks to other tracks then adding fx to the copied ones and dropping the level of them till they are sort of subliminally adding to the main ones. Could get messy and phasey quickly but you can try all sorts of stuff like this till either something works or it's dinner time and time to quit for the day and think about new ideas.

Reamping too is a great tool, gives you the time to get everything right after the perfect take is done.

[NYMo]

Hi there.

Dwayne...instead of duplicating the guitar, do an overdub and then pan them hard left hard right...and don't use the phase !
Sometimes I use 4 overdubs at different pan widths (in choruses)

Hope that helps.

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[heathen]

Even better idea!

[DwaneHollands]

Jcm 800 niiiiiice! What are you micing the amp with? I'm not that great at tracking electric guits either, can take a lot of time and patience to get it right.

I've found most stereo wideners suck, they really bugger things up, just pan them way out. To get a bit of extra wideness you could try copying the guitar tracks to other tracks then adding fx to the copied ones and dropping the level of them till they are sort of subliminally adding to the main ones. Could get messy and phasey quickly but you can try all sorts of stuff like this till either something works or it's dinner time and time to quit for the day and think about new ideas.

Reamping too is a great tool, gives you the time to get everything right after the perfect take is done.

Yeah man. the JCM 800 is nice. Love that amp. Had it for 10 years plus. Got it second hand from Cash Convertors. Love the bottom end on it. It's very silky and transparent. Not woofy and fluffy. It gives me the definition i love!

The 2 x 12 has quite a hard dry sound aswell. Really Like that.

I just used the Calibration microphone that came with IK Multimedia's ARC (room compensation) plugin. Just whacked it in front of the 2 x 12. About 10cm in front of the left speaker cone. Not in the centre, off set about 5 cm and above the centre about 5 cm. (was as low as my mic stand would go. lol)

I didn't spend any time positioning. Just started recording. Did some pretty extreme EQing. ha ha.

I'll have to try that technique of using a FX on one of the channels to widen things. THanks heath!