Ribbon mics - clueless

[The Tasmanian]

Ive done many albums using a RCA 44 on lead (male) vocals - and still get amazing compliments from the big guys on how much they love the vocal sounds.
And I have used a Coles quite a few times on female vocals (once for a big UK single)

The thing I do like about ribbons is you can tailor the top end boost for each song - for eg: the same singer can have different sibilance because of two different keys that particular songs are in - so one can add the correct eq whilst tracking and react to the key and how the singer is projecting the sound of his/or her voice.
Mic pre's make such a difference though when using a ribbon - the better the pre - the less top end you have to add, and the less HPF needed.
Your balls are on the line when you commit to a ribbon on vocals instead of reaching for a Neumann or the like.... you've got to deliver something special or sink... keeps you on your toes!

[ChrisW]

I think the point everyone is making is that Ribbons do take EQ very well if required.

Exactly.
With the engineers I come up against, I never hear comments about ribbons being dull or too dark, but I hear lots of comments about how you can eq ribbons, often by extreme amounts and the resulting sound is never bad.
When I'm recording drums with my engineer partner, we tend to eq a little on the way in, and eq to taste again in the final mix.

[mylesgm]

I've never pulled off the ribbon on voice unless its specifically for an effected sound, maybe its the signal chains I've tried or the voices I've tried it on but just never sits with me. Use them for lots of other things though and the mono ribbon drum overhead is almost de rigueur for my indie folk/rock work.

[Ben M]

Just experimenting inside my bwain ie. haven't tried this in other words.
What if I place a piece of foam (acoustic or other) covering the back of a ribbon mic (I have Coles, AEA and a couple unbadged ribbons) and attached the foam with 2 rubber bands for example. Anyone tried this for vocals?
I might give it a try a see what happens.

[Chris H]

Having the foam too close like when attaching with a rubber band could cause resonance and other problems. If the idea is to stop too much room sound entering the rear lobe then a gobo or something like the SE filter placed 12 inches back would be a better Idea.
Or one better, get a multy pattern ribbon like the Altec 639A :
http://lloydmicrophoneclassics.com/39.html
or the STC 4033:
http://lloydmicrophoneclassics.com/9.html

They have a ribbon and dynamic capsule and are great for a full vocal sound in the crooner, think Bing Crosby style and for some female voices.
Ribbon is fig 8
The Dynamic is omny
Combined is Cardioid

[mylesgm]

I reckon that you could make it work Ben but I would choose a thin but dense felt or something similar rather than foam. Try it and report back.

Having the foam too close like when attaching with a rubber band could cause resonance and other problems.
Ribbon is fig 8
The Dynamic is omny
Combined is Cardioid

Can this actually be done with two separate mics and if so how? flip phase or something?

[Chris H]

I'm no techie but i reckon it could be done for shure! Grab a ribbon and a dynamic, gaffa them together or arrange something more aesthetically appealing.........
Here is the schemo and description from a great mic site to wander around:
http://www.coutant.org/stc4033/index.html

wiring.gif

The schematic drawing shows an inductance L1, which in association with the capacitance C1, progressively attenuates the contribution of the ribbon element to the combined output. The effect of this at the higher frequencies is to confine the output of the combination to that of the moving-coil element alone. The operation of the three·position switch at the rear of the case can be seen from the schematic. In position C (Cardioid) both elements arc connected, their outputs being in series. In the position P (Pressure) the ribbon element is short-circuited, and in the position R (Ribbon) the moving-coil element is short-circuited.

[Ben M]

I reckon that you could make it work Ben but I would choose a thin but dense felt or something similar rather than foam. Try it and report back.

Ok yeah... some felt I'll give it a go.

Having the foam too close like when attaching with a rubber band could cause resonance and other problems.
Ribbon is fig 8
The Dynamic is omny
Combined is Cardioid

Can this actually be done with two separate mics and if so how? flip phase or something?

You just need to get the diaphragms aligned really well. Is that what you mean Myles? Sorry but I do 2 mics on vox quite a bit (SM7 and U87 in omni together). No phase flip. I end up using one, the other or both together. And together is usually to best sound

[seancook]

i've got an altec 639b
and whilst i find it an extremely useful and cool mic, the combining patterns has never been particularly flattering to my ears, some wierd comb filtering and very particular high midrange which is good for intelligibility of vocals in a 1940's radio vibe, but not very flattering to any vocal i've tried it on.

as such i pretty much always leave it in straight figure eight, but maybe i'm missing out

As i understand it the stc mic is more or less the same thing but for the uk market.

my 0.2c

[mylesgm]

I reckon that you could make it work Ben but I would choose a thin but dense felt or something similar rather than foam. Try it and report back.

Ok yeah... some felt I'll give it a go.

Can this actually be done with two separate mics and if so how? flip phase or something?

You just need to get the diaphragms aligned really well. Is that what you mean Myles? Sorry but I do 2 mics on vox quite a bit (SM7 and U87 in omni together). No phase flip. I end up using one, the other or both together. And together is usually to best sound

What I was interested in doing was combining the two capsules to create a cardioid polar pattern. This would help the ribbon capsule to reject more of the room sound and provide (hopefully) a proximity effect which is an excellent tool for creating close sounding tracks. I'll have a more detailed look at the schematic (thanks chris) and see if there are some hints there.

[Ben M]

Sorry about that. That was my misunderstanding.

[Chris H]

Here is a link to the innards of the 4033
http://www.saturn-sound.com/images/stc% ... inside.jpg

even in ribbon pattern only the rear pickup is attenuated in these mics because of all the guts behind the ribbon element.

The 2 mics on vox can be VERY handy. When I have done this it has been with a Bayer Soundstar Dynamic and a Rode NT5 or a Neuman KM85. To eq the vox all you do is adjust the level of one in relation to the other for the desired result. The NT5 at a distance of around one foot can be a great sounding vocal mic for female and this really surprised me. Needs to be in a good big room though. Throw the Beyer or any dynamic mic of your choice and its a very usable and versatile setup. I will have to try this with my AKG D19, that and the KM85 would be the killer combo I think.

[rightintheface]

I do the lofi/hifi combo on vox and it tends to work really well. A LDC or SM7 style mic coupled with something lofi like an akai DM13, Beyer M55 etc etc. Provides some natural distortion that can help a Vox track really cut. There's an interview with Nick Valentine on Pensado's Place where he talks about this technique with QOTSA, where he used a Salt shaker for the lofi mic. It's a good technique to play with and can keep things interesting