Turtlerock Forum

Hi all, i have a pretty cool tracking session coming up within the next 8 weeks and i'd like to pick some brains about getting the best possible outcome for the session.

I'll give a rundown on the studio eg: console,DAW,Mic selection etc and then give my plan and then let you lot pick it apart.

Console is a Sony MXP3000, DAW is PT-LE, Outboard equipment - Focusrite Liquid, Lexicon Reverb Unit (I'm not 100% what model) A roland effects module (again not 100% sure, i will re-edit soon) and two other compressors/gates. (Sorry guys i do know the names but i have a major swine flu episode happening inside my body, well its not swine flu but it sucks all the same)

Mic choices are Rode NT2A`s, Shure SM57's, Rode K2, AKG C414's, Audio Technica AE3000's, NT55's, Audix I5's, BeyerDynamic (I think its a M69) and a few others im not sure of.

As for the gig im tracking, its a 6 piece jazz outfit, one that i have put together myself, one i might add that has some of the cream of the crop of australian individual jazz solo artists one of which is Andy Firth. The session will be comprised of 4 covers and one once in a lifetime improv track that i am working on getting the basics together for now. The instruments will be drums,piano,upright bass,guitar,sax/clarinet/trumpet and "fingers crossed" a mini moog synth. Failing the mini moog he has a baby fatty. The session is designed to show the progression of Jazz from the pure early styles of "Jelly Roll" and "Acker Bilk" to the progressionist styles of "John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Dave Brubaker" through to the early fusion of "Herbie Hancock, John Mclaughlin and Chic Corea" and on to the Poppy Commercialism of the legendary "George Benson".

Ok so i should mention i am tracking this in the sony room at "three letter word" sydney, the room is less than ideal for this session i realise, BUT, i can make it work with a little thought and work.

My plan is this.

The Kit : this will be mic'd in a minimal setup of an AB pair of C414s above the kit and a AB pair of NT55's to the rear. My pros and cons of this setup are as such : Pro- The 414s will get that total frequency response that i need of the kit, they are great mics when used in this fashion and have the low end i need to capture the kick without miking it up. Cons: As there will be a lot going on and there will be a very broad range of frequencies getting thrown around the room, spill is my main fear factor. Therefore my question on this one is , should i have a 57 or an I5 as spot mics on the snare and a beta 52 on the kick just in case? I have my own CAD drum mics, should i use those as well? Arrrgh! Stress!

The Upright Bass : I plan to have two mics on this one. One for the neck and one for the sound hole end (yes they have two sound holes but i figure one mic approx 4 inches above the bridge will get the sound i need) The mics would be a NT2A in cardioid for the lower end and an AT AE3000 for the top also in cardioid. Again spill is the factor but i think with proper room positioning i will get the best result i can. Pros: With the right room position and polar pattern selection i will eliminate as much room noise as possible without losing frequency response. Cons: If i don't consider the position enough spill will be present and i may lose the dynamics of this instrument. Question is - After room positioning and the reflection factor is accounted for should i consider a different polar pattern or even mic choice? Arrrgh! Stress!

The Piano : Well i dont really have much leeway in regards to the position of this instrument. Unfortunately it will be jammed in the corner with a close mic setup on it. The mic will be a K2 on this although i may setup an extra NT2A just outside so i can capture the developed sound a little more. Pros: The sound levels from this will be enough not to worry too much about spill. Cons: the main worry is not letting the sound develop enough to get correct gain structure and frequency response. Mic choice is the big one here i think. Question - Should i setup two mics to be sure? Is the fact that the piano cannot really be anywhere but the corner going to be a major factor? Mic choice? Arrrgh! Stress

The Guitar : Well i guess i got lucky here, There is an isolation booth that's normally used for vocal tracking so im going to mic up the cabinet in there with a paired side by side AB mono rig. One NT2A in cardioid and one SM57. I figure a combo of dynamic and condensor should get the result i need. Pros: Having the cabinet isolated really gives me leeway in regards to room noise/spill in the live room, i can also manipulate the iso booths acoustics by setting up a little noise trapping material to deal with the glass surfaces of the door and viewing window. Cons: The iso booth has two hard surface glass areas. One standard door and a 3 metre window. Reflection is the worry here. And if the amp somehow catches fire we wont know until the sprinklers come on and a lot of cursing ensues. Question: The iso booth is approx 3200 in length and about 1800 wide by 2800 high. I plan to decouple the cabinet to eliminate the possibility of standing wave problems, BUT, as there are the two hard reflective surfaces should i face the cab away from the door and approx 500mm away from the door OR at the opposite end and totally baffle the door end off? The booth is TOTALLY dead when these surfaces are covered. Also are the Mic choices correct? I have used this setup before and got good results. My main worry is that the final track will not have the "room" that the other instruments have. Also the artist may not want the cab to be isolated. ARRGH! Stress!

The Wind/Brass : I am going to have two setups to capture these instruments. I will have a dedicated NT2A for the main tracking mic. Because there are three different types of sounds that will be delivered i figure one mic to capture the two artists at the source and the additional room mics will get the sound i need. Pros : Because of the dynamics of these instruments i should have no problems capturing the sounds i need. Cons : Gain structure is a constant factor with these instruments. Room spill. Placement of mics and location of intruments/artists. Question - Mic choice? Should i have slight incoming compression?(With regards to that one, personally i'd rather ride the gain pot than mess with the clean signal) Arrrrgh! Stomach Ulcers!

The Moog/Synth: Phewwww. At least i can just DI this bloody thing. But making room for old matey if he does bring the "proper" mini moog and not the baby fatty will be a nightmare. Plus i'm not sure exactly what connectors i would need to track it. I need to research this more i think.
Pros: When the session gets to Herbie Hancocks "Watermelon Man" i will get the exact sound i want. Cons : Im not sure if this guy is really on the level and full of shite. The moog is heavy and wide. If it dies mid session i'm up shit creek. Arrrgh! Major stomach ulceration occuring daily!

Ok so yeah thats the session. Did i mention i will also be doing a live stereo buss dump that i will mix on the fly? Well thats happening as well. Every day that i wake up lately im in constant fear that this session will go to shit in a second if i don't plan it to the max. The fact that i am paying for professional musos to come in is the only thing i'm not stressing about as i know they will be all one takers. I should also mention that i am using this session not only as something to have on my portfolio but as my Major creative project for the diploma which i'm due to finish in 13 weeks. STRESSSSSSSSS! :cry: :lol: :oops: :oops: :oops: :roll:

please feel free to deconstruct, ridicule or prompt me in anyway.

Mick

A quick response.

The best jazz albums were recorded with a MINIUM of mics and sound great because of it.

One mic for the kit (2 if absolutely if required) one on each of the other instruments and a stereo room mics ( if needed as well)

Recording jazz is very different to recording rock. It's about the interplay between the players and how it sounds as a entity.

If you use all those mics the way you describe sorting out the phase alone would be a headache in it's self.


Make sure the room you record sounds great and the players sound balanced before you set up a mic and you will get a good recording :D

Maybe try the Glyn Johns method for micing the drums - 4 mics max and with careful placement, can sound the shit!!
Not sure what '3 lettered room' you are in but the room is important for this method to be most effective.

Might be easier and more effective to hire a small concert hall and just use ambient mics with spot mics if needed.

walding wrote:A quick response.

The best jazz albums were recorded with a MINIUM of mics and sound great because of it.

One mic for the kit (2 if absolutely if required) one on each of the other instruments and a stereo room mics ( if needed as well)

Recording jazz is very different to recording rock. It's about the interplay between the players and how it sounds as a entity.

If you use all those mics the way you describe sorting out the phase alone would be a headache in it's self.


Make sure the room you record sounds great and the players sound balanced before you set up a mic and you will get a good recording :D

Hi mate, thanks for your response.



To give it in a nutshell, the room sucks.

its not a room thats really conducive to sound development and in the terms of recording what i want to record there really isnt much that i can do other than close mic and add "room" later in the mix stage.

I do have two session plans for this which i might add i failed to include in that massive epic before.

One is the close mic setup - see above, the other is to just overhead the kit and setup a mid-side room pair using two NT2A's with one on figure 8 and the other on cardioid with one dynamic on each instrument.

I had considered the phasing on the mics but not enough it seems.

I would rather go with a room mic setup but i am afraid i wont capture the individual instrument tones to the full extent that i could.

its doing my head in

TimS wrote:Maybe try the Glyn Johns method for micing the drums - 4 mics max and with careful placement, can sound the shit!!
Not sure what '3 lettered room' you are in but the room is important for this method to be most effective.

umm its the sony room at ess a ee. bad room. well its ok ay i guess for most things but not really the best for this session.

Kurt wrote:Might be easier and more effective to hire a small concert hall and just use ambient mics with spot mics if needed.

Mate i asked my super if i could do this but apparently they don't trust me enough to believe that when i submit it i did it all myself. I can see their side of things there but seriously, if i'm spending my own f***ing money, money that really should go elsewhere, on a session for my final units in the first year of a degree im paying top dollar for then i should be able to submit what i want, recorded where and when i want. As long as its on time that should be it in my eyes.

I have the opportunity to use a LS9 32 with a limited selection of mics in a brilliant home that is perfect for such a session but it aint happening.

see why the ulcers are getting bigger by the day?

[Edited by Admin]

Mickstape wrote:

TimS wrote:Maybe try the Glyn Johns method for micing the drums - 4 mics max and with careful placement, can sound the shit!!
Not sure what '3 lettered room' you are in but the room is important for this method to be most effective.

umm its the sony room at ess a ee. bad room. well its ok ay i guess for most things but not really the best for this session.

Kurt wrote:Might be easier and more effective to hire a small concert hall and just use ambient mics with spot mics if needed.

Mate i asked my super if i could do this but apparently they don't trust me enough to believe that when i submit it i did it all myself. I can see their side of things there but seriously, if i'm spending my own f***ing money, money that really should go elsewhere, on a session for my final units in the first year of a degree im paying top dollar for then i should be able to submit what i want, recorded where and when i want. As long as its on time that should be it in my eyes. (Mark Bassett may be able to clarify why i can't do this.)

I have the opportunity to use a LS9 32 with a limited selection of mics in a brilliant home that is perfect for such a session but it aint happening.

see why the ulcers are getting bigger by the day?

maybe get someone to video the session and prove that you did do it properly elsewhere!!
Might not be worth the hassle I know, but if the ess ayy eee room is shite, then going elsewhere will have a +ve impact on the quality of the recording..
Shame you're limited in your options by ess ayy eee :-{

Do they not have a performance hall or something on campus? Where do those studying live sound learn/practice?

In agreement with some others here.
If it's that important a session the mic selection and positioning has to be amazing, and the room has to be no less than good.
Add in spill from electronic instruments and you are paving the way toward big headaches!!

I really only know about drums, but I would use minimal mics and the best quality ones, in the best sounding space.
Either 1) baffle off the other instruments to drastically reduce spill, or 2) go with full on spill and make the whole ensemble sound good as a singular entity..... again the room has to sound good to achieve that.

Kurt wrote:Do they not have a performance hall or something on campus? Where do those studying live sound learn/practice?

good point dude, i don't really want to go into the shortcomings of the campus. i will say the teachers there are good at what they do, some surpass others in their chosen fields and the equipment is good for learning differing levels of skills.

There are several live rooms, the biggest being the sony room which is approx 7m x 5m x 5m x 2m x 3m in wall lengths, approx 3m high all over.

It seems to be a space issue in regards to the lack of larger rooms. Among other things.

I actually am at the point of thinking that i might just get a decent soul/funk/jazz outfit to do a session for my creative project and save the paid session for another time and place. At least i know that it would sound the way i want it, using equipment that won't cost much at all.

[Edited by Admin]

I have recorded similar ensembles in varying rooms, all have turned out ok, you can even find some on cd. The latest one is coming out soon hopefully which is the Airforce Jazz Ensemble recorded at work in average sounding band room with great players, good mics and pres to HD. Here's what we did for piano, upright bass, drums, two saxs, tpt. There where other guests like vox, banjo (it had a few tribute songs for WW 2 , and some classical players too for some psuedo classical pieces.

Stereo Royer for front of band, this ended up being a big part of the sound. Piano -U87 sideways front side facing towards bass strings, Oktava 012 of high strings(not always used in mix though), piano cover to block horns from entering on the side the lid was up about halfway. Bass Royer 122, blocked off by gobos as best as possible to reduce incoming spill. Drums one omni earthworks TC25 OH gobo in front of kit to block some spill into horns. Sax left - Kel HM1, tpt - Shinybox ribbon with cimemag xformer, sax right - kel hm1. Pres - 3 x Avalon 2022 (one channel wasn't working!!) The other two racks of 4 pres built by yours truly.

Things i'd do differently - use a couple of extra mics on drums, just as i was limited a little come mix time. If available used something a little classier on horn mics. Reposition the band a little better re the room mic. More noticable when there were extra players. But some of these concerns where because i was trying to play in the ensemble and wear engineer hat.

I guess it was in the style of older jazz recordings where spill is your friend and sounds like an ensemble going for it in one room. This also relied on there being good group takes, ah just like the old days!!!!

Hope this helps.

Hi there,

Good luck with the recording !
Andy Firth used to work for me in the 80's....amazing clarinetist.

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

I think your putting yourself under undue pressure if the idea of recording is giving you ulcers, real or imaginary. Recording a jazz band is not pressure.
Being above Britain in 1944 in a spitfire with a messersmidt up your arse firing real bullets at you is pressure !
try to chill out...
if the band sound good and the recording sounds bad
you fucked it up not the room or the equipment
you will f@#$ a lot of records up we all do/ did
try and enjoy the process:)
by the way if the band sounds good and the recording sounds good
then you have to start working on making the band sound better then they are
your actual audio marks will end up meaning nothing later in life
so whatever happens you will learn real uselful real world stuff
that's much more important


you just might surprise yourself

err i meant that post to read positive - i must remember to triple check my mood before i try to post positive stuff :)

Rick wrote:your actual audio marks will end up meaning nothing later in life so whatever happens you will learn real uselful real world stuff that's much more important

This is truth, brother, take it to heart and enjoy recording your band. There's no rule that a professional cannot enjoy his or her art.

rick wrote:err i meant that post to read positive - i must remember to triple check my mood before i try to post positive stuff :)

It sounded encouraging to me.

rick wrote:I think your putting yourself under undue pressure if the idea of recording is giving you ulcers, real or imaginary. Recording a jazz band is not pressure.
Being above Britain in 1944 in a spitfire with a messersmidt up your arse firing real bullets at you is pressure !
try to chill out...
if the band sound good and the recording sounds bad
you fucked it up not the room or the equipment
you will f@#$ a lot of records up we all do/ did
try and enjoy the process:)
by the way if the band sounds good and the recording sounds good
then you have to start working on making the band sound better then they are
your actual audio marks will end up meaning nothing later in life
so whatever happens you will learn real uselful real world stuff
that's much more important


you just might surprise yourself

Hi Rick, thanks for your post.

Without this coming across as seeming like i'm cocky or a smart arse, i know that this session will probably be one of the best, if not THE best, session i would ever have the opportunity to be part of. So my fears are somewhat alleviated when i know that the musos will be banging out the tracks, in one take, one after the other. But the stress, real or imagined, is there when i think of the live mix that i have to pull off with 90+% accuracy. That is what bothers me the most. And i can totally relate when you say that the marks probably won't mean jack in the real world. I plan to use this session as a benchmark for future sessions and as such want the best results possible.

The other thing is that if i dont get a great result, the reality of the artists wanting to work with me again in the future is pretty much nil. Especially someone with the credentials of Andy Firth.

I really want to work specifically in the jazz/swing/big band sector and i know that if i get this one right it makes life a lot easier for me in the future when the time comes to present myself and my previous work history at a studio managers desk.

Anyways, i am revising my session plan daily, i am just about over my flu so i can book some studio time and practice room setups and mic placements and keep revising and reviewing until the session comes.

Big thanks also to everyone who has responded to my post, i really appreciate you taking your time to offer your opinions, advice and past experiences.

try the jamil method....

swap mics and move shit around till it sounds ace :P

bogan style!!!


i have to say, i am a musician first.....and a recording dude second....

half my sessions, i'm using the wrong techniques (according to some old guy probably), but I get what I and the client both want, all, if not most of the time.

make sure you are acting like a people person on that day, and not a stressed audio guy, coz if the musicians feel good around u, they will probably make up for any stuff u do wrong technically :-) And more importantly, remember how cool you were... i think the last thing a musician remembers will be ur awesome micing (to some extent they will remember a great recording, but imo, its all in the session vibe).


anyone feel free to correct me if im talking crap :P