Turtlerock Forum

Hey there,
this is a concept that i kinda thought up, i dunno if it is viable,i dunno if any1 else has thought of it before. i havent tested this on anything yet, but it kinda made sense so here it goes.

frequency and tempo are kinda related. especially for transients. for eg. 50 hz (eg for bass drum) means 50 cycles per second. works for tempos up2 300npm (50 notes per sec). but for eg in metal. if a song where in 120 bpm, its 4 notes per beat, thats 480 notes per minute, thats 80 notes per second. which means. anything below 80hz would sound cluttered and unfinished and muddy, because the timing is faster the propagation of the frequency (for eg 50 hz for a song thats 120bpm, with 4 notes per beat).
its viable mainly for bass frequencies. i think.

i would love everyone's input on this concept.
criticism,cynicism, every kinda -isms accepted haha.

more than anything, i think that kinda thinking is nothing more than fancifully assigning value to number relationnships. i'd sincerely doubt any of it has any baring on the tone of a song.

Nor would i think that any top flight engineers would be pulling their calculators out and dismissing something which sounded good, because it didnt lie within the confines of a certain number theory.

I think cycles per second, and beats per minute should be treated seperately as one deals with frequency, and the other with rhythm, for example, i would hghly doubt that simultaneously hearing 70 hz sine wave repetitively at 70 or 140 bpm will have more of an affinity with your ears than if it were speed up or slowed down.

jithknot wrote:but for eg in metal. if a song where in 120 bpm, its 4 notes per beat, thats 480 notes per minute, thats 80 notes per second. which means. .

120bpm.. 4 notes per beat (16ths) = 480 notes per min = 8 Notes per second. (Not 80)

Even if you were tapping out 32nds.. you'd get to about 16Hz..

Still gotta play a bit harder / faster before you cross into the audio spectrum I would think?

Regards
Mike

Firstly, what Jamil and Mike said.

To me your post raises some interesting questions.

You seem to be suggesting that if the temp of the kick (expressed as notes per second) is faster than the period of a given frequency within that kick signal (50Hz for example) then the result will be

jithknot wrote:cluttered and unfinished and muddy, because the timing is faster the propagation of the frequency

Propagate is not really the correct term, I think you mean to say period, that is, the time it takes for one cycle of a frequency to complete.

So it takes 1/50th of a second for a single cycle of 50Hz to ‘do its thing’, and if the tempo of the track is faster than 50 ‘kicks per second’ then it’s just not gonna work right?

This raises the question “what does a single cycle of 50Hz sound like?â€

my head hurts.

daym oh man, that makes a lotta sense now.
haha my failure in basic mathematics.lol

From Introduction to Physiological Psychology by Charles Cecil Van Liew Otto W Ziehen

“Thus at at least two vibrations are necessary in order to produce any sensation at all, and a somewhat greater number that the pitch of a certain tone may be recognised.â€

[quote="Mark A. Bassett"]From Introduction to Physiological Psychology by Charles Cecil Van Liew Otto W Ziehen

“Thus at at least two vibrations are necessary in order to produce any sensation at all, and a somewhat greater number that the pitch of a certain tone may be recognised.â€

I haven't properly absorbed this thread;
but subconsciously/mathematically if I'm doing something 120 bpm or below I would naturally add longer waves - to fill out the spectrum (H x W x D). However, the faster the tempo the less of these frequencies get added in. More punch and percussive clarity becomes more important.
Has anyone heard the new Vampire Weekend album "Contra"? Complex afro/latin rhythms mix very well, tight, sparky and energetic and tempo's are up there - a good current example. And then more to the point - speed death trash metal hardcore (<180) were there is very little 50 hz (or anything below 200hz) anywhere. The higher the tempo, the less of these frequencies we can deal with as direct sound (usually around the kick and snare or any percussive instrument and vocal and so on...), and of course depends on proximity effect. The rest can usually be filled out with the sub end of the bass, guitars and effects.

Just a quick observation.

where's the iced vovos mat i need sum after that read!!

ps. my reply wasnt supposed to be catty.

if it read that way, apollo-jeez.

[quote="rumblemania"]where's the iced vovos mat i need sum after that read!![/quote]

Which part? My head still hurts.

jkhuri44 wrote:ps. my reply wasnt supposed to be catty.

if it read that way, apollo-jeez.

no worries. i appreciate your criticism and view.
after all, what matters is what it sounds like in the end.

Slayers kicks are all click otherwise it would just be a mess, but people don't want to hear clicky kicks anymore they want boom! As usual it's always a compromise of what people want and what can actually be done.

Mark A. Bassett wrote:But sounds played up to 1/500th of a second apart can still be distinguished as being separate in time.

Unless the sounds are similar, as with a direct impulse followed by a reflected impulse or echo, in which case the second sound is perceived to "fuse" with the first if it arrives within 20 to 40 msec of it - called the Haas effect, as I understand it.

a.d.a.m. baby wrote:

Mark A. Bassett wrote:But sounds played up to 1/500th of a second apart can still be distinguished as being separate in time.

Unless the sounds are similar, as with a direct impulse followed by a reflected impulse or echo, in which case the second sound is perceived to "fuse" with the first if it arrives within 20 to 40 msec of it - called the Haas effect, as I understand it.

It's level dependent. It won't 'fuse' if the second sound is 20dB louder. The Hass effect is entirely dependent on delay level, not simply delay time.