Turtlerock Forum

Hi All,

In the middle of mixing a classical piece and have been told there is a 'rule' that one should never layer the same instrument (doubling) particularly the violin, different instruments playing the same thing is ok but not double tracking the same instrument playing the same part twice (or more). This was news to me as i hadn't heard that before.

Is it "not the done thing" to layer a few parts to create the illusion of more instruments/add more weight to a classical piece and instead use synth/sampled strings?

Can anyone shed any light on this? Really confused... Can't find any info online about this topic and was hoping fellow T-rockers could point me in the right direction. At the end of the day if the client doesn't like it, it'll will be changed until he/she does, it just threw me off a little.

Thank in advance, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ryan.

*DISCLAIMER: It is not my intention to ridicule or alienate anybody with this question, it's a genuine request for clarification on this topic.

Ryan - I've got training in orchestration, so I'll approach it from that perspective, not as a mix engineer. More qualified engineers may be aware of some technical problem that could arise (phasing troubles perhaps?)

However in orchestration terms, this seems absurd. An orchestral "section" is by definition, a group of identical instruments playing the identical part (hence 'first violins', 'second violins', etc). Layering by recording multiple takes is an obvious method of duplicating the effect of having multiple players.

I heard that Ringo did it, so it must be ok

Yeah phasing issues are obviously a worry but worked hard to make sure they weren't. The player wasn't standing still, moved them around the room and I used two different Mics (414 and a royer) so the layers are a blend of those two at varying pan degrees to try and alleviate phasing.

I was just a bit miffed as I (and others around me) think it sounds thick, rich and realistic. I think it may be case of using the same take and layering is never a good idea but multiple takes would inherently have differences in pitch, timing and timbre that would allow them layer nicely. I assumed that when it isn't practical to record an entire orchestra section, this would be the obvious substitute.

Again, if the client doesn't want them in there, I'll take them out and use the synth strings they supplied.

Thanks for clearing things up a little, was starting to question everything I'd done over the past few days...

P.s. Ringo also did Thomas the tank engine so I trust anything he does.

Make no changes, but tell the client you did exactly what they asked for. Also tell them how much better it sounds as a result.

haha. But that would be dishonest... *insert sarcastic tone here* I'll do what they ask and see which one sounds better (I have a feeling I already know what that will be). At the end of the day it's up to them i guess.

i think if you're layering...trying to imitate Different instruments would be the go.

1) add slight delays imitating different stereo placement of each player
2) different EQ's on each violin, slight obviously
3) detune each part....by 5-10 cents.

insert more "slight different" things here.

dont know if you have access to any of the records that i have done with strings on them..
but ALL of them have been done with either a quartet or even only a duo of strings.

double tracked parts
play each other parts
play the parts together
play the parts separately
double stop the part
etc etc etc

I've used layered strings on contemporary stuff but never on classical recordings. As a gross generalisation there's a classical mindset that values perceived fidelity and if a piece is written for string quartet (for example) the preference of the composer / players will in my experience be to hear that represented as four instrumentalists playing in a real space.

It can be an ideological hangup that results in some strange compromises, to my mind at least. For example there was an orchestral recording I did a while back where the conductor was happy to make 100s of precise edits but wouldn't allow any dynamics processing because it would impact on the fidelity of the performance.

Layering synths / samples would be an odd choice if this is what's going on.

Hazarding a wild guess but is it a tv / film project by any chance?

I've done strings too as gigpiglet has mentioned - never a problem.

Look 'em in the eye and tell 'em to leave it to the professionals (you!) and trust their ears not their eyes....

Text_Edifice wrote: if a piece is written for string quartet (for example) the preference of the composer / players will in my experience be to hear that represented as four instrumentalists playing in a real space.

I have a feeling this is the issue... I'm adjusting the mix to suit while still trying my hardest to not succumb to the use of synth strings. Trying to back off some of the layers to sit under the 'lead' strings and fill out the sound that way.

I guess it's a case communication breakdown. I'll keep the first mix for my own listening pleasure and the other mix is what will end up being released. Win win.

I've decided they don't know what they want...

First, I backed off some violin layers (2) and had them sit under one line at say unity, held off on the synth/sampled strings. Client comes back and says they can still hear the doubles. Ok, fine. Stripped out all layers bar one on both violin a cello and added synth strings underneath, client comes back and says the instruments sound too thin...

also said that its over compressed, There is one compressor in the whole mix and its set at about 1.5:1, just taming slightly. Tried quite hard to not use them as it would be easy to over-do it (being the first time I've done a classical style mix).

New question: How do you handle a difficult client? One that seems to come up with something new each time? Already spent a few days on this and don't really have the time to be re-mixing it over and over again. Here's the kicker: student, client is somewhat known and no payments involved... Although ill get a credit... (Again,sarcasm)

Also, any tricks to add thickness to a sound without the use of doubles, noticeable effects or heavy compression?

Sounds like the client wants you to employ the MMF.



MMF = Magical Mix Fairy

It's not an unusual paradigm - I mean, if it's free it can't be worth much .....

How about a bit of subtle tube on some of the strings - not compressed, just as an insert for colour - or a little silk if you happen to be neve'd?

I'm not sure if your trying to mix an acoustic string quartet or rock pop with string accompaniment recording.

If its acoustic based I find parallel compression can be used on strings and orchestral music to good effect.
It thickens the sound and also brings up the average level.
Low ratio low threshold slow attack and release should help hide the trick.