Urgent help needed - Cranesong HEDD

[vanderlae]

Is anyone using the HEDD with Pro Tools / 003? I need your help!

I'm really having trouble working out how to make it talk with my 003R and I desperately want to use it on a mix that I need to deliver in the next couple of days.

I need to: run the stereo bus through it from the 003 > process on the A/D to taste > send it back into the 003 to print the final mix.

How should I be routing this in pro tools? I know you need to do it like a hardware insert on an AUX track, but I'm stuck. I've spent a lot of hours trying every combination I can think of and some that I hadn't!

I've got the S/PDIF cables connected (to both units) and the word clock in Pro Tools' set to S/PDIF. I want to process on the A/D.

If you could do me the favour of running me through this I'd be much obliged.

Many thanks in advance.

[spandex man]

Is the SPIDIF showing up in your I/O Setup insert page?

[vanderlae]

Is the SPIDIF showing up in your I/O Setup insert page?

Yes it is. As in, in my fresh AUX track if I click on an insert and select I/O, S/PDIF L+R shows.

[heathen]

Is it playing audio at all? Or audio with crackles? You may need a coax cable for the clocking, spdif with WC just sometimes does'nt work well/at all. Attach the coax and set the ptools to slave and the hedd to master, should work.

[heathen]

Above 48K sample rate? Optical cable or RCA cables?

[mylesgm]

you need to use it as a hardware insert. set up inserts on the i/o page. If the i/o you wish to use as an insert is greyed out then you need to disable the inputs and the outputs as seperate channels so that you can select them as available to inserts. Then simply select hardware i/o in the usual plugin/insert section of the master channel either as the final plugin or prior to your limiter. Then bounce to disc. check the manual regarding setting up hardware inserts as its probably clearer there than me off hand.

cheers
Myles

[mylesgm]

and make certain that if you are using optical cables that you've selected them to be spdif not adat and also as mentioned above make certain the sample rate is 44.1 or 48k and double check your cable orientation. I know I often hook up the cables incorrectly as in in to in and out to out not in to out and out to in. of course it should be the latter. Also to confirm that make sure the oo2 and the hedd have their sync lights lit to make certain they are receiving/locking to sync. You can also make certain that the digital clock on both is set to spdif or word clock but not one one word clock and one on spdif.

clear?

ha....

[vanderlae]

Myles I think it's the hardware inserts where I'm coming unstuck. S/PDIF orientation is fine, sample rate is matched, I have the word clock in PT set to S/PDIF and the sync light is showing on the faceplate of the 003.

So essentially I'm needing to figure out how to route the HEDD as an insert because right now all I've been able to do is create an insert on the stereo track (that I'm wanting to process) and set it to S/PDIF L+R which it finds - this gets the meters going on the HEDD but then I need to monitor it. And also I want to process it on the A/D however the only time I see a meter reading is if set on D/A. It's beyond me. I know a lot of folk are using the HEDD to process to taste on the A/D - so I'm sure there's a way but I'm just not doing it right. So this is most important to me.

With respect to routing, I could run xlr outs from the HEDD and set the input to another stereo track to monitor/record the output but that's not using it properply then.

I've spent so much time on it too, now it's gotten to a stage where I'd pay someone $50 to precisely run me through the "ins and outs" of it! (sorry) Truly. But this has even got my store guy stumped. It shouldn't be that hard. I'm sure it's not.

[Linear]

wow a whole $50? you must be serious then ;-0

I hate protools, and don't have a HEDD but surely this can't be that hard. I could be completely off here, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Firstly with two digital devices, you must make sure one is set as the MASTER and one as the SLAVE. So if you're outputting via S/PDIF from protools then really the 003 should be the master if the HEDD doesn't have clock in. From memory though, a 003 has SYNC IN and I'd hazard a guess that the HEDD has clock options, so I'd be setting the HEDD as the master clock (ie set the clock to internal) and make the 003 slave to it's clock input.

Route all your channels in Protools (ie the master buss) to the S/PDIF output. That needs to be configured, but if you've got Protools then I assume you know how to setup the IO. Then set up a new track, DON'T route the output of that new track to the S/PDIF output, instead route it to something else, say Analog 1&2 for monitoring. The INPUT for this track should be S/PDIF.

This track is your 2-buss master that you're printing through the HEDD, and the audio file that could be considered as your master.

I do this in Protools/Logic all the time, never fails. But instead of a HEDD, I'm running channels out through a console (and hence outboard) for mix then back in for a printed 2-track.

Chris

[vanderlae]

wow a whole $50? you must be serious then ;-0

Well you know what I mean...how silly of me to undervalue a charge out rate for 30 minutes ;)

The HEDD does have clock in. The clock in PT is set to S/PDIF meaning that it reads clock from the head. Both word clock and audio pass through. One of the main reasons I bought this is to use the converters on the HEDD, so I'll be running the 003 as slave.

Yes tried setting the master fader's outputs to S/PDIF which is fine, though I can't then set the INPUT for the new track to S/PDIF. Comes up with a message about it already being used.

But regardless of the routing, I'm wanting to process the A/D and there's no signal. So I need to figure that out also, so not just a simple case of pulling in gear unfortunately.

[Linear]

well it's all about the routing.

I would hazard another guess that PT doesn't like the S/PDIF being clock input AND signal input. Protools is retarded like that sometimes.

SO try this. Get a wordclock cable. connect the wordclock cable from the HEDD SYNC output to the 003 SYNC input. Then set PT to be clocking off it's SYNC input (not S/PDIF). Then try and set the return channel as S/PDIF input. I would be very surprised if this didn't work.

If you can, it's much better to sync off a separate BNC cable, even though in theory you can sync with either S/PDIF or ADAT. When you have multiple devices, keeping wordclock separate from signal alleviates many problems (from my experience).
Chris

[mylesgm]

Chris is correct about one way to set up the routing and I guarantee its all about routing. You can route all the track outputs to the hedd (002r spdif out) and return on a stereo track (002r spdif input) that is routed to the main outs for monitoring and bounce to disk thats option 1.
option 2 set everything up as normal all tracks routed to main 1-2 and then use hedd as hardware insert which needs to be configured in the i/o page of protools.

as to sync settings you have two options with two subsequent options each. first option is clock via wordclock which as chris pointed out is with the 002 sync input. option 1a and 1b is tow choose wether pt sends clock or hedd sends clock one has to send one to receive and at first blush I would say try both.
second option is to clock via spdif. You might find that the 002 won't clock to spdif but has to be master but you need to check the manual to confirm. Otherwise its the same as option 1 in that you must send clock from one place and receive it in the other. I would try 002 as master and hedd as master.

I know that the hedd has a great a/d stage but I doubt that the clock part of it is as significant as the processing and the a/d stage and if the only way to get PT to work with it is to use the 002 as master then do that. Remember that if the 002 is the master the hedd is still providing a/d conversion not the 002.

Actually to be honest I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble. you've got my number call me if you're still having difficulties after trying the above options.

M

[mylesgm]

yep termination can be an issue though I often find that if you're creating a two device loop then its not a problem at all.

I'm sure the clock of the hedd will be better than the 002 but if the only way to get the device to work is to use the 002 as master then thats what should be done.

M

[vanderlae]

Yes I have a word clock cable going out from the HEDD out to the 003r in. This solutiong was suggested by my store guy after reciting all this trouble to him also though hasn't made a difference. Again the 003r WILL in fact sync with the HEDD set to word clock via setting the clock option inside pro tools to S/PDIF. This part of it works.

And from all my readings on other slut$y forums there are people using S/PDIF (clocking+audio) to do it all. (pro tools users) Absolutely shouldn't need to rely on the word clock cable for what I need to do as the 003r is telling me that the S/PDIF is syncing and doing its job and hence the 003r is reading clock info.

I think Myles and Chris; yes it's a routing thing for sure. Myles the trouble for me is 1) routing correctly, and 2) being able to use the A/D section from the HEDD as currently the only time I see the meters on the HEDD work is when the D/A is selected.

[Text_Edifice]

just had a quick read of the manual and just wanted to check I've understood your signal path correctly?

003 spdif out -> HEDD spdif in -> HEDD DSP -> HEDD spdif out -> oo3 spdif in

If you are metering on the d/a of the HEDD it seems like signal is getting from the 003 to the HEDD so is it possible that the process switch on the front of the unit is set wrong (i.e. to d/a or a/d instead of dig)?

Not wanting to offend with such a basic question it's just sometimes easy to overlook a simple thing when troubleshooting.

[vanderlae]

just had a quick read of the manual and just wanted to check I've understood your signal path correctly?

003 spdif out -> HEDD spdif in -> HEDD DSP -> HEDD spdif out -> oo3 spdif in

If you are metering on the d/a of the HEDD it seems like signal is getting from the 003 to the HEDD so is it possible that the process switch on the front of the unit is set wrong (i.e. to d/a or a/d instead of dig)?

Not wanting to offend with such a basic question it's just sometimes easy to overlook a simple thing when troubleshooting.

Hi Dave, no troubles. Yes that signal path is how I've got it connected. As for the process switch, I'm trying to get it happening on the A/D setting. The idea being you can select where you want it to process. The problem being that whilst it shows meter reading if I've got the HEDD setting selected on D/A, as soon as I switch it to A/D - where I want it to be - the meters don't show any signal. So this point right here has me stumped.

[vanderlae]

Oh, and I have read the manual. Several times. The signal path options are displayed only as diagrams that are somewhat confusing as they don't tell me much about how to do it, just what it can do ;)

Feeling helpless....

[Text_Edifice]

ok so that's your problem - you're not actually sending any signal to the a/d converter.

with the signal path above you're never leaving the box so there is no a/d stage to process. If you want to 'process on the a/d stage' you'll need to take the output from the HEDD and plug it back into the input of the box.

You'd only do this if you were inserting something else into the signal chain.

If you just want to use the HEDD to affect your mix set the process switch to dig.

Hope this makes sense.

[vanderlae]

If you want to 'process on the a/d stage' you'll need to take the output from the HEDD and plug it back into the input of the box.

Right - and of course that would be counterproductive (silly) yes...?!

So essentially, by setting the process on the HEDD to 'digital' I can still effect the signal as it passes through? Still have the word clock in 'tools set up as S/PDIF correct?? To be able to use the digital setting I've discovered that I need the word clock cable connected because otherwise PT spits out a message about 'clock choice being wrong, reverting back to internal clock'. In other words, digital is reading clock from the word clock cable coming out of the HEDD rather than the S/PDIF. Argghh....brain freeze ;)

The only problem being, that again when I had it set to 'digital' the last time the meters were not moving for me. I will try it again.

So now it also comes down to how to set up the track in the pro tools to send and receive the signal so that I can print the retrun audio to a new stereo track. As everyone has already said, hardware inserts are probably it - I'm just trying to figure this out now. I've only ever used outboard as the Front end, never working through it before. Ya see. Even after all this time!

[Text_Edifice]

By setting the process selector to digital you are telling the HEDD to process the digital input from the 003 and then output the results via SPDIF, AES and the D/A (diagram on p. 7 of the manual).

You also need to make sure that you have the correct digital source, sample rate and bit depth settings on the HEDD.

So assuming a PT session at 24 bit / 44.1k with the 003 as the master clock

1) set the digital source knob to spdif
2) set the sample rate knob to Word Clock (WC)
3) set the process knob to 24 Bit Digital (about 11 o'clock)

If you want to use the HEDD as the master clock you'd have to alter step 2

2) set the sample rate at 44.1k (assuming that's correct for your session) on the HEDD and set up protools to slave off the HEDD

Then inside Protools route whatever you want to process out and back in via SPDIF using either an insert or assigning the output and input of your tracks as described b Chris / Myles.

Process to taste.

Is that any clearer?

[vanderlae]

Process to taste.
Is that any clearer?

Yes it is, many thanks. The issue still I need to resolve as I may have mentioned somewhere above is that by setting the output of the track (say my stereo master track) to S/PDIF L+R, then setting the INPUT of another track to S/PDIF, pro tools kicks out a message saying something about not being able to use the same path as it's already in use. Which is annoying. I'm not in front of it now but will be shortly to try out. Getting there...massive e-beers coming ;)

[Text_Edifice]

just had another quick re-read of the manual and it appears that the clock selection on the front is only engaged when using the unit as an a/d converter (which makes perfect sense really, silly of me to think otherwise) - "they do not affect digital inputs because the digital inputs provide their own clock information".

So suggest you pull out the WC cable, set tools to master clock and go.

[ghengis]

Hi,

Just some more info to add...

Yes it is, many thanks. The issue still I need to resolve as I may have mentioned somewhere above is that by setting the output of the track (say my stereo master track) to S/PDIF L+R, then setting the INPUT of another track to S/PDIF, pro tools kicks out a message saying something about not being able to use the same path as it's already in use. Which is annoying. I'm not in front of it now but will be shortly to try out. Getting there...massive e-beers coming ;)

I think the main problem is not with W/C or SPDIF or anything like that. On a all PT systems (HD/002/003/mbox ie everything) by default the main L-R output is mirrored to a digital output. In the case of a 002/003 it is SPDIF, on my HD it defaults to AES. Here are 2 options for changing it.

1. Open up the Setup/Hardware pulldown
2. Check 1-2 Output Column - it will probably say "+Analog 1-2" (notice the plus sign) - This means that the output is being sent to multiple outs. If it just says "Analog 1-2" then it is a problem elsewhere...
3. Click on "+Analog 1-2" and then select just "Analog 1-2" thereby turning the mirror off. It should now read "Analog 1-2"

The other way to change it is by going to the I/O Setup Window (Setup / I/O Setup pulldown) and click on the "Output" tab. You will see a similar display as above "+Analog 1-2" along the top row under the picture of your interface. Mine actually say +An...1-2 because of the squashed font. You can click on here and change the output/mirroring options as well.

As Dave mentions above, you will have to have the 002/003 being the master driving the HEDD with it in slave (digital) sync mode.

Hopefully that gets you over the line.

Thanks
Geoff

[vanderlae]

"they do not affect digital inputs because the digital inputs provide their own clock information".

So suggest you pull out the WC cable, set tools to master clock and go.

Haha I like chasing tails!

Well I'm up - finally! 99% anyway, just a few things to iron out relating to what you've noted re the WC.

The thing about that is you pull the WC cable if you're in digital (process) mode and Pro Tools halts and throws out a message about the clock being wrong and reverting to internal. That is if you have 44.1 selected as sample rate and are clocking from the HEDD with WC in PT set to S/PDIF; which seems to be worthless if it only does D/A like you've read. Yet it allows the audio out and in (s/pdif) and still processes!?

Having said that, I am up and running and that is the main thing – I am very pleased, so thanks to all! Dave – it seems that either way works (as you said before) but given that the HEDD only clocks D/A if selected on the face then I’d be better off just resetting the 003r to run internal clock and set the HEDD to WC to accept. Though I would have thought that the clock from the HEDD would be better than the clock from the 003 anyway, so I wonder why it’s still working if I have it plugged in? Tools is clearly communicating with it and clocking from the HEDD. Hmmm

So yes, wonder if I’d be better of just running the wc from the 003 and be done with it. Use the HEDD for processing, nothing else. (for this purpose).

But to report on the sound – well already from using it for just 20 minutes I can really hear the advantage of running it through to process (over the mix bus). The TAPE really pushes it into a thick forest and rounds it out (as you’d expect!) whilst the PENTODE really pulls out some of the detail adding depth and separation. This is running both around 3 to 3.5. Wow!!! The TRIODE on the other hand isn’t very useful to my ears at all for master bus – it sounds like it’s just pushing it into digital clipping. Your experience??

Thanks everyone! Just about there.