Ribbon mics, fashion and AT articles

[chris p]

Rick's latest in AudioTech got me wondering ....

The point as I understood him was that a good ribbon mic is great, but it is NOT necessary to have one in order to make a good record, and they can be high (=costly) maintenance because the ribbon element is fragile and wears out. So to put my spin on it, by all means get one if you know why you need it and have open eyes about the costs of maintaining it, but do NOT get one simply because its fashionable to yabber on about how they provide analog sound to digital recordings.

So, my technically and technology literate friends, two questions -

(1) Am I correct in believing condensor capsules also require maintenance and wear out (albeit not being a fragile as the old ribbon)? What about dynamic mics?

(2) What mics would be good alternatives to a ribbon? In dynamics, something like the Beyer M88, perhaps (yes, its hyper cardiod rather than fig 8, but Rick for one never seemed to like the fig 8 sound)? What's a nice dark and warm condensor? The Sontronics Orpheus might be one example.

[wez]

there are ribbons and there are ribbons. we have four ribbon mics, all of them made before 1950. never really been tempted to try any of the new ones.

the inherent figure 8 response is very useful, but sure you don't need a ribbon for that. it doesn't matter if you are ahead of or behind the fashion... it catches up to you (or leaves you behind) sooner or later.

drum heads wear out, strings wear out, tubes wear out. tyres wear out. actually ribbons don't really wear out so much as blow out, but hey, it's a consumable.

glen phimister has our 77DX at the moment. $200 for a ribbon and a tidy up, money well spent, even if you need to do it every couple of years. same with good tyres. 12 months ago i spent nearly a grand on the best wet weather tyres i could get, having previously discovered what happens on a wet road with cheap tyres (ie it ends up costing more than the tyres). it took a year before they were put to the test, but the other day it happened - car pulls out in front of me, i braked hard, you know that feeling when you're waiting for the moment when the wheels lock and you start that slow-motion slide. never happened, ABS didn't even kick in. good tyres.

what's this got to do with ribbons? nothing, i just like good tyres. and old ribbon mics.

[rick]

in the real world anything that moves wears out
the element in a a condenser moves just a little bit ( microns) and a dynamic a bit more ( a few more microns)

Ribbons move millimeters !

they stretch and get dull , or if your heavy handed like me they tear up.

the point of the article was NOT to rag out ribbons because i own some and love them it was just to put a flag up about the kind of way we get tricked into assuming something is historically correct by subtle media manipulation.
jesus dont let me stop anybody buying a new ribbons or new anything really they are all as cheap as chips !

so yes condenser wear out, dynamics are much tougher but they get dull as well it all depends on the design
you know speakers wear out and get dull right...?

my advice is try these things for yourself, borrow them, hire them do what ever and find out what you like and what works for you and sod the rest of the world wide waste of time

btw figure eight is still a mystery to me , when i have it sussed i will let you know, it always sounds backwards and phasey to my little ears

my emails gone hot again i must learn to write something that people want to know about

[JulienG]

My takeaway from Rick's column was more pointing out that this industry is surprisingly similar to many consumer trends:

* "Digital is cool" -> everyone buys digital
* "Analog is the new digital" -> everyone buys new analog processors
* "High end clocks make digital sound analog" -> everyone buys clocks
* "Ribbon mics are the secret to a gold record"...

You get the idea. It seemed to be more a fact that following the trend isn't inherently bad, just something to be certain about before you throw money at them.

[Linear]

so yes condenser wear out, dynamics are much tougher but they get dull as well it all depends on the design
you know speakers wear out and get dull right...?

i really doubt this. how could a condensor 'wear out'?

i suspect that in almost all cases, mics go bad due to their environmental conditions and due to the fact that materials in the mic age/oxidise/break down. magnets can can also lose their magnetism. yes things break, but this is different to wear through normal use.

this would imply that storing a dynamic microphone in a quiet place would make it last longer than one in a loud place (as dynamics are always 'on').

any techs have any ideas?


Chris

[rick]

in regards to condensers i was talking about the gold actually falling off the mylar capsules as it ages and the tension of the capsule changes for the worse this happens from the movement of use , condensers definately change tone as the capsules skins get loose.
they get loose from movement or some not so good mounting designs
call it enviromental breakdown if you like but an unused 30 year old mylar condenser capsules sounds bright, a 30 year old used capsules sounds duller with a "flappy "
bottom well in my experience anyway !


and yes i think if you stick a dynamic in a drawer for twenty years and then compare it to its working brother and you will hear similar results.

so i am standing my grounds and sticking to the original observation
anything that moves - wears out.

i got really excited by the idea of neumanns DIGITAL microphone a few years ago untill turned out to be a hoax

[Howard Jones]

With old Neumanns, the worst problem that can afflict them is crazing of the gold-spluttered deposition on the mylar in the capsule. That is, very small random lines form between the gold and the mylar, lifting the gold and completely corrupting the sound. Sometimes the crazing is so fine that you don't detect it in advance, but when you clean the capsule, the gold deposition starts separating from the mylar - very distressing for the tech and expensive for the owner.

The occurrence of crazing seems not to be entirely age-related but is also affected by heat, humidity etc.

I instinctively agree with Rick about "an unused 30 year old.. etc" and "stick a dynamic in a drawer... etc" but I also wonder if he has done either of these things, as I haven't. I still think he's right, though.

BTW, digital microphones still use a transducer element so would suffer from all the same faults already complained of i.e. crazing, relaxation of the diaphragm etc etc. As ever, simply being digital is no guarantee of being better.

[rick]

historically with old mics and the locker scenerio two occasions spring to mind.
i "found" a nos beyer dynamic mic in the techs store at festival one time , it had been bought at the same time as the other 4 microphones of the same model only it had the other smaller din type plug so it was a pain to use and was banished back to the techs cupboard to fix

25 years later they had not fixed it, i wired up a new lead
( it took 5 mins !) and then went and tested it compared to the other mic of the same age and model, it was much brighter ! much clearer !

now this is not conclusive because all of the beyers sounded different and i never thought that brand was very consistant
but they were all definately duller then the unused one.

i put a new old stock ( 1974 ) neumann mylar capsule from a sealed factory case that i had lying around into a prefectly working u-47 fet once just to see what happened
the nos capsule had so many more rich top end harmonics i could not believe i was "putting up " with the other capsule the way it was .

enter Gunter Wagner into my life
err ...gunter can you "Fix' all my perfectly working neumanns for me ?
can you "match " them all and get them back to factory specs
make them all sound like their brothers and sisters..?

exit any hope of ever having any money in the bank....

i can not describe how good my M49b sounded after he rediaphramed the capsule and put it back to the way it was shipped !
again i am sticking to my guns
anything that moves wears out !