stolen gear from mix masters

[Ausrock]

I don't know, but it seems like gone are the days when stores would buy one unit to use as a demo or floor model and leave the new stuff in their store room to be sold off to buyers.

gee... I wonder why that is?


http://www.turtlerockmastering.com/foru ... php?t=3465

I would buy from the cheapest place thats established, even ebay or online should be considered. Most items that do become faulty has passed their warranty dates.

In my opinion, a good relationship with a music shop is when they give you very good prices all the time and for that, you buy from them all the time.

hmmm.... yeah.... perhaps this attitude is why?

Because if any shops DID bother to buy a store only demo unit, you'd come into the shop and run your greasy hands all over it and try it out, then go and ask them to compete with the price from someone on ebay who doesn't have the same kind of costs as the shop that you helped yourself to a demo from, right?

bottom line - you can't have everything both ways, and you already stated your preference for cheap versus anything else, so yeah.... enjoy the world you helped create...

WORD!!!

[Mickstape]

Now I remember why I blocked you from my ebay auctions.

was that aimed at me Kristian? i've never been blocked from anywhere to my knowledge. You wouldnt have anything i want anyway champ. Well anything that i couldnt get somewhere else that is.

[prequalizer]

What's your point?

A consumer getting the most from their money is a great attitude. I don't shop at Myers if I can get a good price for the same style clothing at Dimmeys. Is there something wrong with that, or should I buy from Myers to make you happy?

You should tell people to stop buying from that new store Comos or something since its not helping stores like Coles and Woolworths.

[no-fi]

my point is, the level of product quality you expect from low volume specialty shops is inconsistent with the way you choose to spend your money.

Any shop that has to buy 4 units to sell 3 will always have a 33% higher cost per unit sold... and you said in that other thread that all want are best prices...

so guess what? no special demo model anymore. of course you still demand to go into the shop and try out something before parting with your $4000.... so the unit you end up buying has been taken out of the box and powered on and used by other people. awwww. this is the inevitable result of your way of doing things. have a nice consumer experience.

[prequalizer]

my point is, the level of product quality you expect from low volume specialty shops is inconsistent with the way you choose to spend your money.

Any shop that has to buy 4 units to sell 3 will always have a 33% higher cost per unit sold... and you said in that other thread that all want are best prices...

so guess what? no special demo model anymore. of course you still demand to go into the shop and try out something before parting with your $4000.... so the unit you end up buying has been taken out of the box and powered on and used by other people. awwww. this is the inevitable result of your way of doing things. have a nice consumer experience.

Why would it have a 33% higher cost per unit sold.

The demo model, the shops usually sell for what they picked it up for or a little less?

The shops should just stop this try and buy offer because these selfish shoppers are stuffing up the consumers that are expecting to buy a new unit. I am presuming, It's people like you who go out there and buy a unit thinking its some renta-vision store and give it a good trash so that they know whether its a unit they like and if they don't, they just trash it anyways because they are going to return it within 7 days and try other units they can trash and then make all the units in the store all used!

Lets keep new as new and used as used. There should be no in between lines. If you are going to spend money on a new unit, try a demo from a store that has a demo model and not a store that lets you try a new unit and rebox it and sell it to other consumers as new. That's just deceitful.

Tomorrow, I will go down to a car yard and buy myself a brand new 1986 Holden. Even though it has 200,000 klms on the clock, its still new, its just been tried alot but so far no takers.

[Linear]

I have found that more often than not, those who use price as the overarching consideration for where they source their gear are not using it in a professional capacity. IOW home hackers that use the equipment for personal use, and who don't derive a majority of their income from it tend to cast their 'dollar votes' based solely on the cheapest price.

I sincerely believe that when you start treating equipment as income-producing capital, from a business perspective, the price matters less and the service matters more. And by service I mean availability, flexibility, warranty, advice etc etc. I'm not saying I always have done this, but I do now.

For example, I purchased some apogee converters from sound devices. I could probably have bought them OS, or from ebay or whatever, but I chose to buy them locally. After using my initial setup for 3 months, I decided that it was far from ideal and that a slightly different configuration would have been better. So do you know what they did? Allowed me to exchange for my preferred setup (symphony instead of firewire, DA16X instead of miniDAC). Try doing that via ebay/OS retailer.

As for new being new and used being used - I'd have to say John that I reckon you're waaaay off the mark. If you're a retailer like Harvey Norman or JB HIFI or even IKEA, you work on volume to make money. In fact, IKEA make around 0.5% markup on the items that they sell. They can sell 'shop soiled' or 'ex demo' stuff at or below cost purely through the volumes that are sold.

Audio equipment retailers I would say aren't in this category, they wouldn't do anything near the volume. If I wanted to buy something, and the retailer wouldn't let me try it out, then I'd think twice about buying it (especially for something like an EQ or compressor). So if they do let me try it, and just because I ~don't~ buy it, does that mean that they now have to make a loss on it? I'd think not. I tried a Manley Varimu, didn't like it so didn't buy it. I had it for a week - and looked after it. I don't see why they would have to sell it at a large discount now and lose money on it.

If you're not happy about buying something that has potentially been turned on, tried or tested - then don't complain that the shop never lets you try anything before you buy. You can't have it both ways!!

Chris

[musikwerks]

Sorry Mick... not you. :-)

[musikwerks]

The shops should just stop this try and buy offer because these selfish shoppers are stuffing up the consumers that are expecting to buy a new unit. I am presuming, It's people like you who go out there and buy a unit thinking its some renta-vision store and give it a good trash so that they know whether its a unit they like....

oh maaaaaan...... you so don't get it. You think Julian is that kinda guy????

Tomorrow, I will go down to a car yard and buy myself a brand new 1986 Holden. Even though it has 200,000 klms on the clock, its still new, its just been tried alot but so far no takers.

Not even in the same ball park.

Bottom line, for me as I see it based on your previous posts and my selling experiences with you, is that John, you're a cheap ass. You really are. You want all the benefits of a boutique store but demand unreasonably low prices in line with online sellers who have no real world overheads, who don't have staff, super and insurance to pay or premises to lease. You cannot have it both ways and it is attitudes like yours that have helped create the retail situations we see now.

You can't cry arsonists when it's you that helped start the fire.

[heathen]

My opinion is if a high end piece of audio gear has less than 50 or 100 hours of use it's still new, a bit of rack rash, big deal, as long as it sounds right then what's the problem?

Deeper to this conversation is online sales and service. To start with the free trade agreement is killing our economy, anything under $1000 imported attracts no tax at all, this is really crook for local suppliers, extremely unfair in my opinion. A lot of the time in the old days before this some retailers went for the biggest cash grab they could get, which did them no favours with sales either.

Now it seems a deal can usually be reached which is fair for both, you still get warranty and support (usually) and the store gets to make a profit. I agree that customer service is at an all time low, I think this has a lot to do with customers themselves. Being a business owner why even try to be nice when the customer haggles over everything even after the best price is offered. With comments like "oh I'll just buy it ebay if you don't match the price". No wonder retailers are getting defensive before you even start to chat with them about a purchase. I always ask for a best price and usually accept it if fair, or politely decline if not fair.

I've heard coonversations retailers have with customers and sometimes the customer will be near screaming at them down the phone demanding a cheaper price. The best defence in that situation is to just say "well f@#% off and get it elsewhere and don't bother me again", why be nice, no point.

Bad customers just are'nt worth it.

Anyway as for shopping, I refuse to buy from Co@#$ or Wool@#$%#*, I buy my meat from Port Macquarie cheaper and better than any old boot Wooli#$% could ever dish up and all my vegies and fruit from a market co op all delivered to my door, buying it local from Aussies really is the way to go.

[Mickstape]

sweet as Kris, just making sure that the cease fire is still on dude.

As for this whole debate, John, without being snide it is attitudes like yours who have helped uli behrenger and the other "pro-sumer" manufacturers force their cheap and useless junk onto the more discerning pro audio buyers market. You always are going to get what you pay for. If you expect to pay 4k for something worth 7k brand new because it had a few scratches on it then the manufacturers of "Quality" gear would go out of business, not to mention the distributors as they would be inundated with jewish types trying to strip them of their hard earned dollar. <no offence intended to any jewish types on here>

Remember dude, good audio gear aint made in china, well some of the components may be sourced from there but this would be the exception to the the rule. Maybe in the world of whitegoods, electricals and motor vehicles this could be the case due to the volume of their product manufactured, exactly as Chris and Co mentioned, but not with quality audio gear. I found that out after selling EVERYTHING i had that was pro-sumer just to buy one microphone.

I remember my first tool buying experience as an apprentice, my pa said spend wisely and buy quality. Being a youthful twit i thought if i can buy 5 hammers for the price of one so i can get a better trowel then i'm buying five. It wasn't until those five hammers had been tossed within 6 months that i paid for a quality hammer. Which i still own to this day.

Bottom line though, is that if i was to buy something that was described as "New" then that is what i expect when it gets to me. New, no use and definitely no marks or cosmetic blemishes. That said if the description mentions something similar to the damage just described and there is a small percentage cost reduction due to this then you can't complain. I'm sure you can see the reason behind this people?

My 2c.

[Mickstape]

Anyway as for shopping, I refuse to buy from Co@#$ or Wool@#$%#*, I buy my meat from Port Macquarie cheaper and better than any old boot Wooli#$% could ever dish up and all my vegies and fruit from a market co op all delivered to my door, buying it local from Aussies really is the way to go.

I hear ya there man. Local all the way for me also.

[RustyO]

I remember my first tool buying experience as an apprentice, my pa said spend wisely and buy quality. Being a youthful twit i thought if i can buy 5 hammers for the price of one so i can get a better trowel then i'm buying five. It wasn't until those five hammers had been tossed within 6 months that i paid for a quality hammer. Which i still own to this day.

Estwing?

[prequalizer]

If you are a store, buy an extra model to use as demo. Regardless if you are large or small store, buy that extra model which you can sell as a demo unit once all your stock is sold.

Why do you have to make all your new stock into try/buy units. Just have one unit, that gets passed around. Years ago, boutique stores use to have that mentality, but now, it seems like its not.

I guess everyone here pointing fingers are angels, they have never downloaded an mp3, copied music, used cracked software, etc.

I understand what you are saying, and its actually a good point heathen about people that make a living off a unit think differently.

If you want to buy a new used unit, fine, up to you, but for the people that don't, they should not be sold a used unit.

[heathen]

I get your point too, we own a grop shop, I'm not gonna open bottles of beer and have a sip before putting the cap back on and trying to sell it as a drinkable product.

There is a line I agree. Though the retailer could then say, ok only deals on demo gear, no more deals on stuff which has never been opened, that would hurt everyone, no-one usually pays retail unless it's on finance anyway.

But yeah I agree a brand new unit should be sold without any defects, in a perfect world that is.

[musikwerks]

I guess everyone here pointing fingers are angels, they have never downloaded an mp3, copied music, used cracked software, etc.

Nope, never. Very proud of it too. I have receipts and (legitimate) serial numbers for everything I own, and support contracts with the major vendors. I can't afford downtime.

As an example, last week our media databasing software (Avid Interplay) went mental. I am in the middle of a reality TV series for Foxtel and due to deliver the 1st episode in HD that day, and....All 6 edit suites crashed. On the phone at 7am to the vendor, remote login, ID the problem... on the phone to Avid, Avid remote log in, confirm the problem. Avid write software patch specific to our situation. 3 hours later, uploaded, installed, problem fixed.

Try that with cracked software.

[prequalizer]

I guess everyone here pointing fingers are angels, they have never downloaded an mp3, copied music, used cracked software, etc.

Nope, never. Very proud of it too. I have receipts and (legitimate) serial numbers for everything I own, and support contracts with the major vendors. I can't afford downtime.

As an example, last week our media databasing software (Avid Interplay) went mental. I am in the middle of a reality TV series for Foxtel and due to deliver the 1st episode in HD that day, and....All 6 edit suites crashed. On the phone at 7am to the vendor, remote login, ID the problem... on the phone to Avid, Avid remote log in, confirm the problem. Avid write software patch specific to our situation. 3 hours later, uploaded, installed, problem fixed.

Try that with cracked software.

O.K., have you ever accepted work or listened to a mix from someone who used crack software (even just a plugin or something) or watched a DVD at someones place and the movie is not original? Do you have kids that do as well?

[musikwerks]

No, never.

I have hundreds of store bought cd's and dvd's. The only burns I have are archival (for the car) copies of stuff I paid for.

My kids are under 4 years old.... and will be taught that stealing music or movies hurts their Daddy's business.

Your argument is showing holes everywhere.

edit: In fact I think you're desperately trying to find ways to justify your own stealing, cracking etc. I'd put money on it that you have a good suipply of illegal software, music and movies in your house.

[Mickstape]

I remember my first tool buying experience as an apprentice, my pa said spend wisely and buy quality. Being a youthful twit i thought if i can buy 5 hammers for the price of one so i can get a better trowel then i'm buying five. It wasn't until those five hammers had been tossed within 6 months that i paid for a quality hammer. Which i still own to this day.

Estwing?

you got it.

[rick]

i dont have a dog in this fight :)
but nor do i have any cracked or pirated anything nor do i know where to go to get them !
does that make me an angel..?

but if i want something from a retailer , i want the one that i tried tested and kept !
i am sick to death of buying some "new" thing fresh out of the box and finding out it doesnt work and the shop doesnt do returns
and i have to send my new thing off to another state at my expense


well i dont because i stand in the shop untill they understand the thing they sold me was unfit for the purpose ( ie broken)
and i get another one or a refund before i leave

you talking to a guy that stood in bunnings for 5 hours to get a refund on a bosch sander that lasted 4 mins new out of the box !

gimme service , refunds and repairs in house and i will and do pay for it everytime

hmm i think we have all had this conversation before ... twice

is it really over a couple of desks and wether they are considered "new " or used or demos

jeez?

[tactics]

So what happens to the pawn shop, do they lose money for buying it off the thieves?

I guess they would lose their money, although the seller would have had to provide some form of ID to pawn the item. So they (or Police) would at least have some recourse in tracking them down.

What happens to the gear retrieved, is that sold off as still new, ex-demo, used, etc by the store?

The gear becomes "B-stock" which means it is either scratched or is without original packaging etc.
It then attracts a fairly decent discount, even though it is working liking a new one & still has warranty.
The gear is checked for normal operation. If it isnt working correctly it is sent to Rob at Proharmonic for repair.

Do you think it would be fair to a buyer if gear was retrieved and sold off as if it was new, if the gear had been used even slightly by potential thieves or new owners that had to give it back?

No absolutely not fair. We are always upfront about the gear we sell.
We like to treat people how we would like to treated.

I hope this helps a bit.

[RustyO]

I remember my first tool buying experience as an apprentice, my pa said spend wisely and buy quality. Being a youthful twit i thought if i can buy 5 hammers for the price of one so i can get a better trowel then i'm buying five. It wasn't until those five hammers had been tossed within 6 months that i paid for a quality hammer. Which i still own to this day.

Estwing?

you got it.

lol

I guess we were different young men... I brought the Estwing the first time.

[prequalizer]

No, never.

I have hundreds of store bought cd's and dvd's. The only burns I have are archival (for the car) copies of stuff I paid for.

My kids are under 4 years old.... and will be taught that stealing music or movies hurts their Daddy's business.

Your argument is showing holes everywhere.

edit: In fact I think you're desperately trying to find ways to justify your own stealing, cracking etc. I'd put money on it that you have a good suipply of illegal software, music and movies in your house.

That's pretty funny.

Well done Tactics, its good that you are selling it off as B-stock and being honest about it. From some of the responses here, people seem to think that you should sell it as NEW.

Maybe musikwerks will be willing to pay for those B-stock at new prices.

Sorry to hear you got broken into, Ive actually dealt with you guys a long time ago, bought several new units when your company was just new, bought alot of the Avalon stuff you were bringing in. Just times have changed and I couldn't justify not trying to save as much money as I can on my purchases.

[musikwerks]

That's pretty funny.

Funny but probably true.

So how about it John? Got any cracks, torrents or hacks?

[prequalizer]

I don't believe you musicwerks. Prove it.

[musikwerks]

Nice deflection there John. Come over anytime and I'll show you. PM me for my studio address.

But it's kinda moot... you're dodging of the question is just reinforcing the idea that you yourself are dodgy.

[rick]

I don't believe you musicwerks. Prove it.

err now i have a dog in the fight :)
but you believe me right john ?

i had a long chat to the guys from waves in isral the other night and they were plenty surprised to hear me say
my place is among the very few with a 100 % no crack policy in this country

but why is your country like that he said..?
you know what will happen eventually if every just steals IP..?

yeah i know i said "but you cannot change the world just the bits you rub up against "

[waitup]

Any piece of equipment that is even halfway properly constructed will not be affected in the slightest by being fired up once a week to give a customer a 5 minute demo. On the same note, if mixmasters tests all the gear they get back, and all is good, they can sell as new as far as I'm concerned.

[prequalizer]

Nice deflection there John. Come over anytime and I'll show you. PM me for my studio address.

What for? Its you who wants to prove to me. Who knows, you could have hidden walls and safes to hide things. Maybe if you pay to hire a professional crew to search your premises properly with xrays, cavity search, scanners and trained dogs, that are allowed to search your premises periodically for the next 3 years, then maybe, just maybe, I might believe you are telling the truth.

waitup, I remember going to plenty of stores, that I asked to demo a unit, and the store managers would say, no we can not demo the unit because its new in the box, its either buy it or not and these are stores like Allans who are not boutique stores.

[heathen]

Actually John I reckon Kris would dob his granny in he found a crack on her system. :) :) :)

[prequalizer]

Actually John I reckon Kris would dob his granny in he found a crack on her system. :) :) :)

LOL