Is anyone still using tape? is the new stuff any good?

[The Tasmanian]

Is anyone still using/buying new tape? is the new RMG stuff any good?
I'm still getting conflicting reports of drop outs etc etc.
More interested in 1 inch and 2 inch formats if anyone is churning through new tape - what are your experiences?
I'm running low on 2inch stock...
Is it all over?

[waitup]

TapeOp Magazine interviewed the current owners of RMG about quality control and what was going on with the first batches of the new RMG and weather or not the issues have been sorted. Obviously you can only take it with a grain of salt considering they're the guys trying to sell it to you but I'll try to hunt down the issue and scan it for you.

Personally I've only used one reel of new RMG tape for 16-track to pro tools transfer, so it literally got played once on my machine. It didn't shed any on that run through, but who knows?

[Ben M]

Hey Chris

What’s the percentage of the artists you work with who “insist” on working with tape?
I’m generalising a bit here, but, it seems to me that most eng/prods would prefer to keep the analog front end (console, vintage pres/comps etc..) going and use high quality digital conversion and it’s generally the artist who is querying whether to use tape or not.
Most artists who ask me about using tape and would like to work with it either;
a. Have never recorded to 2” and have read something on the interweb or gearslutz that says they should do all their recordings on tape.
b. don’t have the budget to facilitate tape in their sessions, and would need to hire secondhand/used tape anyway. I think gone are the days were bands buy 5 or 6 new tapes at the beginning of an album recording.
c. don’t really know what it will do to their recordings.
d. Generally don’t care (or ask) what they are recording too and at what quality anyway.
Don’t get me wrong…I love tape. I started on it. But the glory days of tape quality are over me thinks. Stories of shedding and drop outs with some of the tapes on the market totally turn me off using it. Oh…I would certainly still consider 1/2” 2 track for mixing too (if I had one). But it’s not the end of the world if that doesn’t work.
I’ve had 2 clients in the last 3 years who have insisted on using tape for their sessions. Both of which I recommend other studios for them to use.

I’ve just invested heavily in 2 of the new Apogee Symphony I/O’s and the full shebang to enhance the studio. I’ve had the chance and great offers in the last few years to buy numerous 2” machines…but something was just telling me, STAY AWAY, it’s more hassle than is necessary. Alignment, parts, maintenance, cleaning, reliability and today’s tape stock just stop me in my tracks.

I’m no help with your query but I was interested to note your answer to my question at the top.

All the best.

[stosostu]

Whilst I agree with all of Ben's points above, there are still occasions, with the right material and talent, that tape is/should be the choice. The vast majority of my work goes straight to digital and stays there, but it is great to have the option of going to tape when. One recent session included a three piece brass section and putting that on tape just worked better, even though that eventually went into a digital mix.

[musikwerks]

http://www.vintageking.com/Endless-Analog-Clasp

[The Tasmanian]

Hey Ben
No-one asks me to go to tape anymore, as you mentioned, most people have no idea, or they think it is an esoteric "old/retro" sound (or can't afford it)
But - everyone that works with me trusts my experience (and ears) with both analog or digital, and I call all the shots as far as pulling sounds and getting them heading towards the right sound needed for the mix.
If I was just a tracking engineer then it would hardly happen at all.
But seeing I mix 99% of every record I track, I have a vision with the band/artist that I am trying to achieve, and know intimately the sonic pluses and minuses of both formats, and where I'm heading - just the same as choosing a mic & pre for flavor.
This is the best thing about being the producer, the recording engineer and mix engineer.

For hard hitting rock - no question tape kills digital - irrespective of the front end pre's - that great transient normalizer that tape does, takes the harshness away leaving a more musical sound/outcome.
Also - getting a healthier level into tools sounds so much better, rather than backing of the pre's in case of a random loud transient.
There are also times with gentle music that I want to go to tape too - it is so much more 3D to my ears.

A lot of artists cannot afford tape - so I pay for it out of my money/fees.

Since I moved away from shitty protool's 192 convertors and went Myteks, I now find I can do a lot more without tape.
But - I can't say the same about apogee's - maybe the new one's are good, but all the previous models lifted the top end slightly - and that is the last thing I want from a A to D converter. I spent a long time researching/trying many converter's and did what a lot of the classical guys did - went Mytek for flatter response.

The way I work is straight to tape (Ampex machine is best - flat to 100k!!!!!!) and transferring live off the playback head at 96khz/24bit.
I hate mixing off tape now - I'm so used to mixing off tools through a large format console where hardly any compression is needed because of the use of tape at the beginning stage.
I love look ahead gates and frequency compression and filtering on plug-ins (eg De-essing), being able to automate Eq's ITB, suddenly swap outputs on a vocal track for say different console EQ in a verse to a chorus etc.
Tracking to tape now I would do it 60-70% of the time.
I'm still wanting to source a 1inch ampex MM1200 8 track - and they are getting cheaper all the time.
But I will not go there with the investment(again) if the medium is crap - I want stability for more than a few "batches" of tape.
At BJB we have 5 x 2inch machines, but the beautiful Studer A80 sits in the mix room and almost never gets used to mix off.
I would be much happier without expensive tape and line-ups and repairs,
But I will never trade quality for convenience unless the margin is tiny or irrelevant - that's another reason why artists continue to work with me.
I expect great performances/songwriting/lyrics/vision (no shortcuts) from artists - and in turn they expect the same from me.
Same reason DOP's on feature films still shoot on 35mm as opposed to video - they may edit/finish in digital, but they are still mainly shooting on film first- why? Because its 3d as opposed to a flat dimension.
So.... yes - I still use tape.... I have to, until I am forced away from the medium by lack of reliable tape stock.

[wez]

100% agree with chris' comments above. but what always interests/amuses/perplexes me is that everyone is so quick to talk about the sonic benefits of tape - what about the procedural benefits? the rush of adrenalin when you hit record? the way your listening goes into a different place when you hear the clunk of the solenoid and you see the tape start spinning? the way everyone is so much more focused when you are paying for tape and you actually, umm, kinda need to get it right? the way decisions on arrangements and song structure are actually made BEFORE the recording starts, not after? the way limiting an artist's (and indeed engineer's) options actually forces open the creative doors.

the dream studio i'm working on is all about the process - the sound will follow.

[The Tasmanian]

I agree Wez - the mentality is : throw a whole lotta shit into the computer using stupid click tracks on every song and spend hours editing the crap out of it until it sounds like a band playing - very very dumb!
There is absolutely no vibe working this way - and the clik track disease is so pathetic.
I ban them in my sessions unless there is an absolute need to use one for A song with a guide guitar/vocal section or intro with no timing.
OR - its a electronic band where the tempo has to stay locked down.
Beat detective? - I will never use it - its for idiots who don't know that they are making music.
That's my whinge for the day!

Anyone regularly using RMG 2 inch tape with no drop-outs???

[rick]

I ask people regularily about this
the current trend here and in la la land still seems to be people with stock piles of nos ampex tape
but surely that must come to an end soon ?
More power to rmg and atr if that can make tape that fills the needs at all !
The guys that bring in rmg are on our forum list
perhaps they can give us an idea of the current stock they go through
locally as an idea of who is using it locally?

[jay_f]

Hey there

I feel like sticking up for those new folks making tape, because I'm pretty happy that at least someone is still bothering. I think they may have turned out a dud batch or two when they first kicked it back into production, but the rumours and folklore of dropouts, shedding & slitting etc have sorta hung around ever since. You would have to think they would be out of business by now if it was an ongoing thing.

Haven't tried the ATR stuff yet. But I have worked on 4 or 5 reels of RMG SM911 2" here from a couple of different batches, and a couple of reels of 1/4" too with no problems at all. It does seem a little weird at first. Because compared to 456 /499, the tape kinda feels a bit thin to touch & it even looks like the reels are a tiny bit short loaded. So that doesn't immediately inspire confidence. But so far in my experience, it has done the job perfectly & in use I haven't had any drop outs or any of the other problems that have been reported.

I should say that with the 2" I have used it only for band tracking, and basically doing takes until the end of the reel, maybe only going back for a punch in or two, and then transferring straight away. So even though 2 reels in particular got used in that manner over and over for 3 or more takes of 8 - 10 songs. it's not like I have put an RMG reel through shuffling between locates for hours on end for mixing. But for me, no complaints. The reels I have used sounded like they should, and even smell about right too

All the best

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks James - this is good news.
As far as shedding - every tape I've ever used shed's (to a degree) - so this is not an issue as it is basically rust glued to plastic at the end of the day.
But - dropouts are absolutely unacceptable - it can make a perfect take unusable, and therefor I think the client should blame the engineer in this case and even get some sort of recompense if the new (RMG) tape that is being used and recommended by the engineer turns out to be faulty.
Thanks for the feedback - I'm feeling a bit more confident.
Regards

[jay_f]

I have to admit, having heard all of that negative stuff while I was looking into getting some new tape, and having not even touched a 2" machine for years. I used the first reel just for demo stuff, & even then I think I had the inputs split to both tape & tools. Because I didn't really want to be in a position, where I was forced to explain a disaster if it turned out badly.
I sure can't speak for every reel they have ever produced. But I can report that in a small sample of 4 or 5 RMG 2" reels it's been so far .... so good. Maybe that's just dumb luck too, who knows. Hopefully some others can jump in with some more experiences.

All the best

[The Tasmanian]

Hey James.
As long as there is no drop outs I am happy - I will not trust a new tape formula on long term storage though - but who does this these days anyway?

Whats the going price for a roll of 2inch RMG?

Also - is there different formula's (like 499/GP9/456) or just the one type?
Thanks