TOOOO LOUD

[mark rachelle]

I happened by chance to catch a Screaming Jets concert last night at the Barwon Heads Hotel

If any one knows who did the sound can you please tell them that most of the punters there must be considering suing the venue for loss and damage to their hearing

My God where do these live sound guys get off

The support band were sooo loud and bad sounding that even the bouncers were telling the bozo mixing them to turn the sound down didn't help that the songs were crap and the singer couldn't sing, but thats not the point, live band doing their best so we support that

but if only the sound could be at a vibe volume

if half the crowd are covering their ears then surely you must know its too loud

i've spent an awful lot of time at gigs and clubs but this was something else

in all honestly 2K must have been 160db

the the jets
well they sounded like a screaming jet literally

look the fans were there and its great to see an awesome old school rock band play the hits we know

mosh pit booze and a fun time

but guys you seriously fucked up hiring that guy to do the sound

so whoever you are Mr old school rock mixer CHANGE PROFESSIONS

yep a great kick sound and gtr sound but once again another dickhead FOH engineer has the FOH so loud that the vocals simply can't get above the mix
HOW LOUD WAS IT

it was so loud the whole main circut fuse popped and the system was constantly going in protection, and one of the turbo sound bins was simply not coping and cut out

i had to complain to get earplugs or let me out of the venue
Thank you to the bouncer who supplied me with earplugs

my hearing is in tact and i had a great night

however my mate who is also an engineer and who didn't have earplugs could not hear properly today at 3PM

i'm sure if Barwon HEads Hotel Management knew what people were saying about the experience in their establishment they would be very concerned indeed

[jkhuri44]

totally feel your pain man!!

its one thing having a well balanced live mix blaring loud...

but bloody nawing skull splitting frequencies suck!!!!!!

[Chris H]

Was talking to Duncan Fry about this a few weeks ago. Especially the harsh top end in a lot of todays live mix's. A typical cenario is the FOH doing sound check with a band with a LOUD on stage sound. As the gig progresses his ears close up and if he keeps tweeking the mix to compensate well the punters cop the unplesant results!
Obviously things were out of controll at this gig but doing live sound can be like having a wild animal in a confined space allways on the verge of going out of controll.
Were the amps Marshall stacks? They can be a real pain in the ass. They sound great turned up to 11 but if you stand in front of the quad box they are loud as hell and if you walk to the left or right out of the beam the sound drops right off. Very directional. So pulling a nice loud controlled sound from am stage full of marshal stacks can be impossible in a smaller venue.
Nothing is better than doing sound for what i call a mature educated band (nothing to do with age} I have had the plesure of working on several occasions with Chris Wilson's band with Shannon Bourne on guitar or Paul Kellys rythm section. All the sounds are great, the on stage sound nicely balanced with the acoustic level of the kit with a bit of on stage reinforcement....My job .... easy.
So many live gigs sound bad it's a real shame when with the gear we have today it couldsound great, not pissweak but punchy loud enough and under controll.
email the band and tell them how pissed off you were with the sound. I reckon it was probably the bands fault as well as the mixer.
Tell me if i'm wrong.

[JulienG]

As the gig progresses his ears close up and if he keeps tweeking the mix to compensate well the punters cop the unplesant results!

As much as it sucks, the only way to really combat this is to have an SPL meter in view and keep an eye on it. Any kind of "speaker protector" or similar device that I've run in to can usually be driven in such a way that the sound isn't actually louder, just significantly more fatiguing to listen to, and if your ears have shut down that can seem pretty similar.

Running with good earplugs would probably also help keep the level below the point where the ear really starts to shut down.

[Andrew]

Yeah I just don't get it anymore with excessive levels in live venues. I guess thats why I tend to stay away from live events a lot of the time. In the old days of rave parties I used to wonder why my home stereo never sounded like the live events until I discovered that when you drive the mixer into stupid amounts of overloading coupled with loud sound then you get that 'rave sound' that I remembered...

I'm not sure if it'll change in the near future (I really hope it does), so many simple things (technical & artistic) can make for a better sound. Recently I was at a live gig that was way to loud as well and I thought it must have been a digital desk cause it sounded bad...real bad. Afterwards I walked down and was shocked to see it was a big midas. That really shook me up, I mean the 'king of analogue desks'....really has made me think about the whole signal path (mic to speakers), placement, levels and everything else alot more to achieving great sound at good levels.

[rob]

last year i was at a Sleepy Jackson gig here in Adelaide. The venue is not the best sounding room around and the bottom end gets a bit out of hand if the room isn't packed. On this night it was packed. And it was loud but not just any kind of loud, it was bass loud. At the point where the bottom end was so overwhelming that you just couldn't percieve anything else. Painfully loud that it actually started me make me physically ill. I could feel every kik drum beat as if i was being punched in the liver.

Now maybe there was some objective here from the sound guy but i'll be buggered if i could work out what it was. One result for me was that it made any perception of pitch over the lower frequencies to go out the window. The bass player might as well just banged on bottom E all night. Everything was reduced to an organ crushing thud.

Now as i said the bottom end can get out of hand in this room, however i've mixed there maybe a dozen times ( usually without the benefit of a packed room ) and it's possible to achieve a respectable sound.
You do need to get off your arse and walk around the room a bit and scope out how the sound is working in different areas and plan some degree of compromise back behind the console.

Last saturday we held a reunion gig for a band that i managed and did sound for back in 1980 ~ 1982! ( I know....that's giving away far too much information ) We held it in a back yard on the verandah, vocal PA, amps, kit all un-miked. It sounded great! Rough and ready, but you could actually hear all the instruments and notes ( and mistakes ).

It got me thinking back to the days when i did live sound 3 or 4 nights a week in the early 80's. W bins, 60-40's, 400Watt power amps, roland space echos,..... It was damn hard work pulling a good sound with a typical 80's pub PA. You just couldn't go that loud without it distorting that badly that even the most thick sculled mixer would notice. Don't get me wrong it was loud but not the kind of loud you can pull today. We had to really focus on the balance and EQ to get any decent kind of sound happening. We couldn't just use sheer volume as a mixing tool.

Anyway back to the Sleepy Jackson gig.....I left halfway through. I wasn't sticking around to be insulted and assulted like that.

R

[Kris]

Very good post Mark.

I have this battle every Sunday in church. Though unlike a pub, I have punters but no booze. Booze always seems to make things more tolerable to punters I've found. We have age ranges from 10 to 90 in the crowd and our music is U2/Colplay/Motor-Ace style. Our MD is a guitar player and knows tone comes through volume. We have a wooden stage and high ceilings so it's tricky. On our side though, is that we have a line array speaker system and a Yamaha PM1D.

If the band is loud on stage then it really does make the FOH operator's job so much harder. As a given, we have a perspex shield around the kit. That is only really effective though when there is some kind of absorptive material behind the kit to catch the reflections from the shield. Believe me, it gets nasty with a wall directly behind it and no absorption. Next I get guitarists to angle their amps across stage, away from the singers and the front row. Or, these days, I have a set of moulded in-ears so I put my amp backstage. I love it but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Stage volume kills me if it is excessive. I can have a stellar mix in my cans at FOH but it sounds crap to regular ears due to excessive on stage volume. I saw Diesel at a pub in Blamain a few years ago and while the mix was good, it was painfully loud. Part of the problem is older engineers who have hearing loss and older, less efficient PA's. The other part of the problem does belong with the performers. The Screaming Jets are a loud band fullstop. Combined with a semi-deaf engineer and you have your problem times ten.

Mark is right, these bands need to consider the ramifications on their following by employing old school methods of 'bigger, better, faster, more' in todays production world.

Re: mixing with an SPL meter..... I have to do it all the time but it still sucks because the second it goes over the limit by 0.1 db, the self appointed volume nazi's jump on you, never mind the fact that the lead singer just shouted into a 58 at point blank range.

It's a very valid issue but by no means black and white.

[Jason]

Hi Kris,

I found we ended up with alot of the "loud on stage" problems after we could afford to by foldbacks because all the sudden the drummer and other players worked out that you try and force the sound guy to crank the foldbacks more so they could play louder. It just becomes a cycle after awhile.

Jason

[Kris]

Drummer goes on headphones, end of story. No one wants the click bleeding all over stage.

Band discipline is a big issue. If they don't respect the FOH person then it's all over. The band needs to recoginise that you are their best friend or worst enemy. I can't tell you the amount of times I have had some arrogant musician's or singers rock up and want this and do that.

They give you attitude and you give them "the suck mix". If they're smart they quickly put 2 and 2 together.... diva attitude to sound guy = bad monitor mix..... nice attitude to sound guy = great monitor mix.

At the end of the day, FOH is there to serve the band, but if the band don't understand what is needed to make a good mix then it will forever keep cycling around.... just like a 100hz feedback loop.

[Chris H]

I can just hear all the Marshall, Les Paul playing guitarists in loud bands, confirming their prejudice toward FOH mixers after reading these posts, especially mine!!........ just maybe in many instances THEY are right? There is a possibility for a win win situation in the band's desire for their sound to feel loud and sound loud, verses the FOH persons desire to do pull a good listen-able sound from their ( hopefully) more objective listening position. It takes a suitably equipped foh person in these areas Experience, attitude and communication skills Then it takes a suitably experienced collection of individuals in the band who are willing to co operate with the sound guy, both being able to be assertive without taking offense. There is a word for it.......? ........ professional I think.
So the band wants the Marshals at 11. No probs i say but there WILL be a few issues WE have to sort out, because you will hear things on stage i may not be aware of AND i will hear things FOH that you wont be aware of..... So i put only a fraction of guitar in the FOH and then tell them (usually) the guitar is just too harsh sounding with that new digital distortion box they are also using, ( you get the idea). In a smaller venue i will also try to get the amps to a workable level for FOH.
We get it sounding OK, Only Vox in the stage monitors as i try to get the band to stand far enough from their amps to hear what else might be happening in the world around them. Often my requests from them will be the natural result of me asking them what THEY WANT. I work hard at letting them know im there to serve them. Sounds a bit you know what but i usually have a much better night as well as earning a few dollars and i know every one else has a better night. And remember the band does get off on the vibe of the room.
Not meaning to be harsh Kris but i never give them "the suck mix". It's part of the problem not part of the solution.

[mark rachelle]

yeah the screaming jets are loud but it was so loud that being right up the front i couldn't hear the individual instruments / stage mix at all

believe it or not it was actually quiter there than standing back

turbosound bins have good throw so the quietest place for front and centre

That is very wrong indeed

no i lay TOTAL blame on the FOH guy

[Kris]

the suck mix is only reserved for the worst of the worst.

it doesn't come out that often.

[Andrew]

I generally use limiters on vocals who tend to shout out moreso as a protection device for our ears/system but not limiting on the normal singing. It does take time to get a good balance between fh & stage but worth it. I'm having great success atm by adopting a less is more attitude in my mixes...you know instead of turning up a few things, turn some other things down. Also try and give my ears a break at least once between setup time and live to refresh them.

I've seen a device that allows you to drive your amp at 11 to get that 'tone' but has a seperate output to the speaker at a lower level...could be useful for some.

It makes me nervous when bands are using headphones/in ears because of the potentional to do damage being so close to the eardrum. A really good limiter should be used.

I think the key is getting the system (& people) to work together instead of against each other.

[Kris]

In ears are the best things I have ever bought. I did it properly, went to Ear Monitors Australia (actually, they came to see me) and got it all moulded etc. We have an Aviom system for band monitors and the Shure PSM-600 IEM units have limiters built in. It's brilliant, I can do my own monitor mix and block out most of the other stage noise. Love it.