Pro Tools 10

[Sammas]

The old accel cards cannot support more voices or ADC because the hardware cannot physically support it.

They need to move on to a newer architecture to move 64 bit and give all the features users have been asking for.

Whats shocking is the prices they are asking to do it, the fact they have dropped compatibility for "legacy interfaces" (such as the old blue 192, lynx aurora, appogee etc) as of version 10.1, and the fact that the HDX system will not run on older Mac Pros (2008 Harpertown mac pros and older) -> this makes the older systems worthless.

They are basically trying to force all the old hardware systems off the market.

I'd hate to be in AVIDs shoes right now... They've pissed off a lot of people

Whereabouts are you getting your information from? Protools 10 is the "last major release" to support HD. All signs on the DUC point to Protools 11 being the first true 64bit protools app which will be dropping HD support. Not 10.1.

Older Mac Pro's use PCIe revision 1.0. Newer mac pro's use PCIe revision 2.0 across all slots which actively doubles the bandwidth of PCIe lanes. A new piece of hardware that still supports a two year old computer really isn't something to complain about.

nevertheless, it outlines my point that AVID are damned if they do or damned if they don't. People want a new system... they get it... then people complain that their old system won't work... people complain that they are using that "old" PCIe technology... then people complain that new systems won't work on 5 year old mac pros.

I have got to ask... what would make you guys happy? Keeping in mind that AVID has posted negative figures (in the tens of millions of dollars) as a corporation for the last 5 years straight? ...and that HD is old technology which can't compete in processing power against current systems?

Clearly protools users expect a miracle. Technologically morphing hardware that appears on their pillow while they sleep.

I am going to personally PM you all my address. You can all pop your big, useless, worthless HD systems in the mail to me. You don't need them anymore... obviously... and they are clearly now incapable of making music.

[jkhuri44]

ahaha, very funny....asking us what we'd do if we were loosing millions of dollars?

Pull my finger out of my ass is what i'd do...protools for the longest time, was charging people 1K for shit like timecode, which came standard on many platforms...not including things like a phase flip button on all tracks....it goes on....they are notorious for not giving 2 shits about their user base..and we're not even talking about complex and useful features, we're talking simple simple stuff here guys...

i hope they crash and burn tbh...

anyone supporting them... for professional reasons or otherwise....i dont understand in the slightest.

[Drumstruck]

This has been one of the most entertaining discussion threads for some time

I don't think anyone would argue about what good engineers can achieve compared to amateurs (without meaning to be condescending). My point was simply that higher quality gear in the hands of the domestic market can only enhance what "they" may achieve. When I was a lad we had a 2-track reel to reel with 1 cheap dynamic mic (even before cassettes came along) and we made what music we could on that - as we got our hands on better gear our outputs became higher quality - I have no doubt that this will continue. Great recording places are hard to replace, but triggering/MIDI/sample technology and simulation s/w (tube / room / amp etc) is getting better and better - I know you guys all know this..... perhaps one day (soon?) the "great sounding room" will be replaced with yet another button or plug-in.

Avid are in a hard spot - they are the giant that everyone wants to slay. Their "brave" move making PT9 hardware independent is offset by their continued binding of PTHD to their own h/w - but it is a smart move - PT has the big name so who would go and pay the same $s for another DAW s/w unless they have a particular gripe against PT? Those with deep pockets will continue to go the "pro" PT path - those with shallower pockets can still afford a flavour of PT that runs against cheaper h/w (or even just on a basic PC with a soundcard) - quite an amazing situation that could well lead to market dominance for many more years..... all speculation gents.

I would love a PT10HD etc setup, but will never have the $s for that or the great sounding room - thankfully there are other ways to achieve very similar. PT7 nearly got me there... PT8 + Reaper got me a bit closer .... PT9 opened the door enough to get me within sight of the goose - the golden egg still takes work, and "they" haven't made a button that produces talent yet ............................

[Ben M]

All good words Ian.

[ChrisW]

Good recordings start with good engineers, and then with good source signals and environments. Then back to good engineers.

Probably.
But the sad fact is that the music business revolves around good music, not good recordings.
The pro music business as you call it really is retreating to the home studio. All the tv/film composers I know are working at home, or in their own room at an outside location. I don't know a single one who is a trainer engineer, or is even interested in studio engineering, they've just had to learn what they have to get the music 'to tape' and there are no budgets to hire a proper recording engineer.
Same with many of the pop music guys, and electronica artists.
Everyone but the wealthiest are working in home studios, often on their own, or with one partner.
Conversely I know award winning engineers who aren't engineering any more, but are sitting in their own home studios writing music or recording in collaboration.

[The Tasmanian]

Yeah I agree
Its gotten to the point where more tracks and speed means nothing anymore.
That's why i am not really interested in PT10 and all the illusions marketed to the gear junkies.
I don't need all this new crap to make good albums - The technology is already there.
5 million voices/ 2000 bit technology - who cares?
Generally It all ends up as shit MP3's.
We are now at a stage where anyone who cant make a great album with what is already available is a technology masturbator - its a massive illusion. Its porn.

[danander11]

Whereabouts are you getting your information from? Protools 10 is the "last major release" to support HD. All signs on the DUC point to Protools 11 being the first true 64bit protools app which will be dropping HD support. Not 10.1.

Older Mac Pro's use PCIe revision 1.0. Newer mac pro's use PCIe revision 2.0 across all slots which actively doubles the bandwidth of PCIe lanes. A new piece of hardware that still supports a two year old computer really isn't something to complain about.

nevertheless, it outlines my point that AVID are damned if they do or damned if they don't. People want a new system... they get it... then people complain that their old system won't work... people complain that they are using that "old" PCIe technology... then people complain that new systems won't work on 5 year old mac pros.

I have got to ask... what would make you guys happy? Keeping in mind that AVID has posted negative figures (in the tens of millions of dollars) as a corporation for the last 5 years straight? ...and that HD is old technology which can't compete in processing power against current systems?

Clearly protools users expect a miracle. Technologically morphing hardware that appears on their pillow while they sleep.

I am going to personally PM you all my address. You can all pop your big, useless, worthless HD systems in the mail to me. You don't need them anymore... obviously... and they are clearly now incapable of making music.

Nathan,

For my two cents, and I've been a bit loud about it over there... is only that the upgrade pricing is askew.. (My personal complaint is for the HD9 to HD10 upgrade).. That's all.. As it stands I've ordered a Native HD card anyways. I'll still have a HD9 license to flog when it comes as I'm only going to have one system running. There is still going to be an HD and a non-HD even with 11, what will not be there is TDM.

I think the HDX is a brilliant deal when compared to what you would pay for a new HD3 system.. (and supposedly it does more). I also think the HDX is more than I need.. If it was just the card and some interfaces I might buy it.. but then I have to figure in the cost of a new Mac Pro because mine can't be used with HDX (Nehalem onwards only), the cost of updating all of my plugs to AAX, etc...

I'll go to HD10 and a native card and call it a day. It should last me for many years and do everything I need, well.

Some of the folks that are squalling are justified in their anger because of the money they spent just prior to the cutoff date. Rightly or wrongly Avid is taking a black eye over this..

In the end, nothing compels up to use these new tools.. we just want to. When my want overrides my visa, (and my common sense), I might buy up again.. but who knows.. I'm getting off of that train. I'd rather spend money on Joes mic pres.

[Lee]

For what its worth Avid is holding a seminar showcasing its new products including PT10 at technology park on Friday the 11th from 10am to 6pm.

http://www.cvent.com/events/avid-commit ... 71393.aspx

[audioio]

the sad fact is that the music business revolves around good music, not good recordings

...Like Lady Gag-me-with-a-spoon, I'm so stupid

(With thanks to Jane Clifton)

[PeteB]

Download Reaper. It'll cost you nothing.
You can use a full working system and decide what you'd like to pay later.
Spend some time playing with it.
What You Pay
$225: full commercial license.
$60: discounted license.
It is seriously good.
Most of these so called PT "enhancements" have been a part of this program for years.
I have been a long time PT user and these days most of my audio work is done in Reaper.
I still use both but actually prefer Reaper.
Cheers.

[danander11]

It should come out today that Avid is terminating 200 of their support and sales staff.. Combined with the response to their latest pricing faux pas and the grumbling of the users on the music side of pro tools it bodes to be a rough season for Avid..

Quick, somebody buy Digi back and sort this out.. Avid is killing us..

[Hookemeister]

Download Reaper. It'll cost you nothing.
You can use a full working system and decide what you'd like to pay later.

This is the kind of software we should support.

Software that we can try before we buy.
Software that doesn't require the latest computer system to run it on.
Software that will run on any platform.
Software that doesn't lock us into hardware.
Software that implements updates requested by users.

The more you give to the Avid/Digidesign/Pro Tools corporation the more you become dependent on them.

You're caught in the spiral. This is the supermarket versus the corner grocery store scenario.

If you keep this up eventually there will only be Pro Tools then they'll tell what you'll pay and what you'll get for it.

It reminds me of that old PT Barnum line...
"There's a sucker born every minute... you just happened to be coming along at the right time!"

[Ben M]

For anyone interested, Avid have announced a 14 day free trial of PT10 and PTHD10 starting from next week.

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks for that Greg
having a look at reaper on their website really confirms that Avid is taking me for a ride - to have this professional software that uses most plug-ins, compatible with almost all hardware is why I have the shits with protools.

Ive been a big "avid" client for over a decade and have reached my limit with them - when they give me such pitiful upgrades, and stay well behind other software, and constantly put their hand out for more money
They aint leaders of software in any stretch of the imagination. Things like plug in compensation was nearly a decade behind other platforms - and not to mention other "features"

And to all those who say "poor Avid - they are going through financial difficulties" - what a load of shit!
Just cause they cant run a business properly is no reason to support them in sympathy.
If Reaper and Cubase can go from strength to strength with no-one forced to purchase hardware proves this point.

I will keep running native so I can be compatible with stuff from other studios, - but will keep my old shit redundant HD system and milk it for years with Reaper or the like.
Poor old me - i'll just have to put up with great reliable old hardware, 48 in/out, Sync I/o to chase tape machines, and change to work with a software format/company that is not a financial trap

Geez I'm having a whinge about them - but they have been constantly forcing me to spend up big for a decade
And - if they are so hopeless as a business - what is everyone going to do if they collapse? Stop making music?
I'm sure plenty of users buy the software and think - cool, now I am a big time professional! I can sleep better at night knowing that I am at the top of the industry - dream on!
Start making and recording music - and stop the illusion that a software platform makes you a pro!

[stosostu]

This thread, and the last post by the Tasmanian, has been the most interesting reading I've seen for quite some time. It has renewed my faith that the music and what you do with it is what is important, not the spanners in the toolbox.

[mylesgm]

Download Reaper. It'll cost you nothing.
You can use a full working system and decide what you'd like to pay later.

This is the kind of software we should support.

Software that we can try before we buy.
Software that doesn't require the latest computer system to run it on.
Software that will run on any platform.
Software that doesn't lock us into hardware.
Software that implements updates requested by users.

All very good points and all worth considering. Time to take another look but the one thing holding me back is inter studio comparability.

[GlennS]

Start making and recording music - and stop the illusion that a software platform makes you a pro!

Amen!

[Chris H]

The current Avid/Protools situation is a reflection of the many aspects of modern corporate culture that puts short term profit and corporation objectives before customer / service and product quality. They are driven by the wrong motive for long term health of their business.The smaller company survive by putting their core market at the center of their business model. For the large corporation their core market exists solely to serve corporation objectives ant the provision of goods and services are tied to manipulation of their market. History will give a harsh commentary on how the "relatively healthy" economic climate of the latter 20th century was decimated by the corporate culture that took hold from the 1980's till now. My take is be very wary of doing business with any large corporation. What has corporate culture done to the music industry.......suits manipulating musicians..... perfect example: Guy Hands and his Private Equity firm Terra Firma destroyed EMI....what a total bunch of destructive tossers!
An an example close to home, It is my belief that Telstra fudge their billing, in small and sometimes not so small amounts so over thousands of customers the financial benefit to their bank account is a substantial amount. Their billing system is less than transparent to say the least! So much so that every time I have a query explained by a customer service rep in a telstra store they come up with a different amount. The overseas based telephone service reps are a joke and an excellent tool for the corporation in frustrating any and all attempts of the customer to gain a clear understanding and overview of the service provided and the ultimate cost of that service. Accountability is out the window and confusion clouds.........or maybe I'm just a dumb ass, but for me it has taken a lot of determination and perseverance to get my telstra bills sorted out in such a way that I am clear I am receiving what I have paid for and I am not paying for what I haven't received or asked for. This is an aspect of the occupuy wall st movement in my not so humble opinion...... so Doyle and the Herald Sun's misrepresentation of the Melbourne protest's are an example of how the corporate sector and those representing it in Government REALLY DON'T or DON'T want the general population to really GET IT!
In terms of business model
Pro Tools ,Logic, Reaper: of the 3 Reaper is the new model that will provide the best value to cost for the customer, Logic is not too bad but re the business model, is part of Apple's strategy to keep their market on their hardware so beware or be ripped off.........and Avid / Protools is the worst....way too skewed towards the negative end of the corporate business model and their customer base has been bled to such an extent that they are F&%ed ...... the writing is on the wall...... they are a dinosaur...... adapt or perish. Ha!

[ChrisW]

I think where Digidesign let me down was by not populating the middle ground.
I'm not a hobbyist, nor am I the equivalent of Abbey Rd, ABC or Universal Studios.
The gap performance-wise between PTHD and PTLE, with the associated hardware compromise was what initially drove me back to Logic.
PT is the industry standard for certain things. If I had a commercial recording facility I would absolutely have the latest version of PT.
The good thing about Logic and Reaper though is that they are so cheap, professional musicians and studios can afford to have those too.

[ChrisW]

they are a dinosaur...... adapt or perish. Ha!

I'm not such a fan of the attacks on business as far as I prefer to see positive change.
Let me explain.....
You have very little choice in the banking sector, they are all much of a muchness. bad news for consumers.
Supermarkets? Don't get me started.
Internet and telecommunications? Being semi rural, I have very little choice. Optus would give me the internet but not a phone (??), Telstra would give me a phone but not the internet (???). Finally got it sorted from a smaller company.
But in the music sphere there is actually a lot of genuine choice.
I choose my tools as wisely as I can, and I choose to support businesses that I think deserve my support, which is often the one man band or small start up.
Going back to my first comment, I see this as positive change. Rather than attack Avid, or use cracked/pirated versions of their's or similar products. Choose 'better' options and vote with your wallet.

[Chris H]

they are a dinosaur...... adapt or perish. Ha!

I'm not such a fan of the attacks on business as far as I prefer to see positive change.
Let me explain.....
You have very little choice in the banking sector, they are all much of a muchness. bad news for consumers.
Supermarkets? Don't get me started.
Internet and telecommunications? Being semi rural, I have very little choice. Optus would give me the internet but not a phone (??), Telstra would give me a phone but not the internet (???). Finally got it sorted from a smaller company.
But in the music sphere there is actually a lot of genuine choice.
I choose my tools as wisely as I can, and I choose to support businesses that I think deserve my support, which is often the one man band or small start up.
Going back to my first comment, I see this as positive change. Rather than attack Avid, or use cracked/pirated versions of their's or similar products. Choose 'better' options and vote with your wallet.

I don't see my comments as an attack on business, rather a critique on big business as it is now in certain sectors, ie an overall corporate culture that is having a negative impact on the value for the customer as seen in this discussion of pro tools, and in the long term a negative impact on the survival of the individual company, in this case Protools. The corporation is normally able to survive the demise of one of the smaller companies it has swallowed up. Adapt or perish refers to the fact that eventually the market decides and my prediction is if Avid does not respond to the real needs of their client base with Pro Tools, in a competitive market, Pro Tools will not survive in it's current form. I'm not advocating the use of cracked software, rather, I think we are essentially in agreement as I too prefer to see positive change and the choice of better options, voting with my wallet. In my view the critique is part of the process of positive change.

[ChrisW]

Yes, choose a different tool.
'Dinosaur, adapt or perish' and 'What has corporate culture done to the music industry.......suits manipulating musicians' hit a raw nerve with me as they are both well known phrases from the music piracy lobby.
What the anti corporate studio or musician needs to do is buy more independent, creative tools.
What the anti corporate music consumer needs to do is buy more independent, self released music.

I know this is not what you are about, but to conclude, we evolve and improve by supporting innovation, not by destroying the mainstream alone.

[mylesgm]

What the anti corporate studio or musician needs to do is buy more independent, creative tools.
What the anti corporate music consumer needs to do is buy more independent, self released music.

I know this is not what you are about, but to conclude, we evolve and improve by supporting innovation, not by destroying the mainstream alone.

The most concise answer to the question I've read. Thanks Chris.

[danander11]

It should come out today that Avid is terminating 200 of their support and sales staff.. Combined with the response to their latest pricing faux pas and the grumbling of the users on the music side of pro tools it bodes to be a rough season for Avid..

The sad thing is a lot of those retrenchings were in Customer Support - does not bode well with a new system coming out.

Making a muddy situation even more so.. due to the outcry over the HD upgrade pricing, Avid, through Max Gutnik, is offering the upgrade if you buy a 1 year service contract.. at almost half-price! What is the logic in firing your support staff, (including DTS, the best friend PT users ever had at Avid), and then selling your product at half-price tieing it to service? Who are you going to talk to? Falulli the Elder in Outer Bangi Bangi? Honestly. Avid management have lost the plot entirely. And with all of that, the CEO still managed a $400k bonus..

[GlennS]

It's funny, I feel very grateful to have Pro Tools, especially having gone through the linear digital formats, but I've kept my investment to a minimum starting off with M-Powered 7, now on 9 Native & I'm still using the hardware I used before I had PT. I don't think I have any need to upgrade or change to anything else anytime soon, I can do so much with what I have now, & I can't see anyone coming in to my studio with a PT10 project anytime soon. Maybe I'll worry about it in a couple of years. My rule is not to buy anything that won't quickly become a profit. In the current climate I'm not buying anything! Well... ok there are a couple of things I couldn't resist.

Easy to forget sometimes that our main business is audio, not I.T.

[Drumstruck]

Man, I really wish our business was music and not IT !!! Computers are embedded / entrenched and for better or worse we are stuck with them - and no-one knows how to set them up for audio better than you guys.

Corporates.... we can hate them too but without them there would be no music industry, no internet etc - and there are plenty of worse things in the world than Avid e.g. mining companies, logging companies etc etc. Anti-establishment rant over for today (maybe).

Oooo a new toy just arrived with the postie - a 4 channel Loft Limiter - time to play

[Text_Edifice]

Adapt or perish refers to the fact that eventually the market decides and my prediction is if Avid does not respond to the real needs of their client base with Pro Tools, in a competitive market, Pro Tools will not survive in it's current form.

Just a thought but I'm not sure we're Avids core market / client base (or where they see their core market going forwards). Though they don't appear to be handling the change particularly effectively I think Avid saw the writing on the wall for the recording studio market when they acquired Digi and have identified (rightly or wrongly) sound for vision as their best shot going forward (hence many of the v10 upgrades seem targetted at film / post guys).

[Alistair]

Download Reaper. It'll cost you nothing.

Had a few hours spare this morning and did just that. So far I'm enjoying it, and it seems pretty straightforward. A few hidden things, but a pretty gentle learning curve compared to Logic/PT if you're unfamiliar.
I'll see how it goes with tracking and mixing a session...

Oh, and the OSX 64 bit beta crashed on me twice in 5 mins. 32 bit seems very stable.

[Drumstruck]

There are a lot of RTAS packages going cheap on eBay now The spectre of PT11 has put a cat amongst the pigeons already.

[Hookemeister]

I think Avid saw the writing on the wall for the recording studio market when they acquired Digi and have identified (rightly or wrongly) sound for vision as their best shot going forward (hence many of the v10 upgrades seem targetted at film / post guys).

I've got news for you... Pro Tools has always been targeted at the post production area... That's where the money is. They were in post facilities, radio and TV stations long before they became the default system in music studios. The lower end of the post facilities invested in them because they were a cost effective alternative to the Fairlight, AMS, DSP, Lexicon hardware based systems.

The music industry got sucked in by default... you want to do music for film, advertising, TV... better have it on Protools if you want to be compatible or do any tweaking at the post facility, where you can guarantee they'll have a dozen Avids and bunch of Pro Tools systems.

It was never designed as a tool for music composition and production.

Think about it... did the first Protools system incorporate midi sequencing??? No.

Protools didn’t incorporate midi sequencing until 1999 with PT5… and a poor attempt at that.

Logic, Performer, Cubase, all started as a tool for music composition then added the hard disk recorder, in fact they had combined midi sequencing and HD recording long before Protools.

Protools started as a hard disk recorder and then added midi sequencing when they saw the market potential of the music industry, but they were already firmly established in post production.

Time to take another look but the one thing holding me back is inter studio comparability.

Ah yes... the “C” word.

Here’s how it works… a composer buys Protools and starts to get post work... other composers think "I want a piece of that action" and so they invest in a Protools setup. As new studio opens up, and make decisions on which system to go with, the compatibility word enters the equation… they want to be compatible with other facilities, everyone else is running Protools, we don’t want to miss out on any work because we’re not compatible… pretty soon everyone’s using Protools. It's a self perpetuating business model.

When it comes to making a decision about purchasing a system, you will always hear these 2 words in the same sentence…. Protools + Compatible. I’ve heard it so many times.

What I would love to see is a program like Reaper, Nuendo or Logic that can read and write Protools files… that is the sort of compatibility I’m looking for.

There was a time when you could take a 2” reel of tape to any studio and know that you could track, overdub or mix without the word compatible entering your mind… things were a lot simpler then.

I’ll just get down off my soapbox now.