Ribbon mics - clueless

[Manning]

I know squat about ribbon mics, never used one, wouldn't even know when to use one. So two questions:

1 - Why use a ribbon? I've read all sorts of articles but got no closer to clarity. For those of you who have access to such things, when and why would you pick a ribbon over a condenser (either valve or SS).

Let's say I had a budget of 1K, $2K or "unlimited" (I have none of those at the moment, but just ignore that). What recommendations would you make?

Cheers Manning

[Chris H]

My recommendation is to buy one, a cheapy will do (Carillon Axis 70 or Axis 90) or hire one and listen to it, .......seriously if you have read all sorts of articles etc etc etc, ec bloody cetera, just bloody well listen to one...... hearing is better than a thousand words...........having said that i will say a few words of my own to add to the thousand you have already read.
Transient response not just frequency response is one very good reason to use a ribbon.....they just sound different in subtle ways than a diaphram that is not as easily driven. So I use them sometimes on double bass and sometimes on drum overheads and sometimes on sax , trumpet and vocals because when I put em up i liked what i heard better than the other mics i put up..... end of story.

[chribble]

Agreed.
I've got 2 ribbons and they sound different.

but.

they both need tonnes of gain
both figure 8
both have less top end than other mics

up to you where you use them. i use them for MS. distant drums. i actually hate them on guitar..

[Chris H]

Agreed.
I've got 2 ribbons and they sound different.

but.

they both need tonnes of gain
both figure 8
both have less top end than other mics

up to you where you use them. i use them for MS. distant drums. i actually hate them on guitar..

Might be worth mentioning that many modern preamps don't match the impedance of older ribbons eg the Relso. re guitar I like ribbons on electric git amps where the highs might be a bit gnarly.

[mylesgm]

I almost always have one as a mono drum overhead because I love the tone of the snare from a ribbon in that position. I have also used a stereo ribbon as m/s overheads with excellent results, also as gtr amp mics, horns and all the usual suspects. The number one thing is the tone and secondly the amount of gain needed. Too quiet a source and the noise from the mic amp destroys the quality of tone.

Never liked them on voice but thats just me.

[chribble]

i don't own 4038's, but if I had more money I'd grab a pair.

Sigur Ros use them as overheads? And I've always liked their drum sound

[Drumstruck]

... they are fragile, so be gentle...
......don't turn on phantom power or you'll open that little box of blue smoke .... (generally)

There were a pair of "cheapies" on ebay yesterday - went for about $250 (new) ..... I think it was a previous forum member selling them

[Chris H]

... they are fragile, so be gentle...
......don't turn on phantom power or you'll open that little box of blue smoke .... (generally)

There were a pair of "cheapies" on ebay yesterday - went for about $250 (new) ..... I think it was a previous forum member selling them

.......now the phantom power thingy...... I am no teckie as I often have to point out because of the half true nature of some of the info I give out on tech related subjects so the caveat applies: "don't try this at home or out on the job folks"
BUT if the ribbon mic is properly wired with a transformer, then phantom should not blow the ribbon. I have on a few occasions had my cheap ribbons on a pub stage where the console had global phantom and guess what......they still work fine.

[mylesgm]

The phantom ribbon thing is rarely an issue and in practise shouldn't ever be. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful but all modern ribbons should accept phantom and most vintage ones will too. Don't know how you can check whether a particular model will or not though...

[Alistair]

.......now the phantom power thingy...... I am no teckie as I often have to point out....

I think you're spot on. I've been told that the issues occur when you've got 48v on a TRS/Bantam mic patchbay (tip hits first and sends 48v unevenly etc), and that some older mics occasionally had different wiring schemes than what is now standard.
Any modern mic will be fine with 48v I would think, but it's probably an OK habit to being careful with 48v and ribbons.

I've got a couple of ribbons- an old B&O (looks just like a Royer 121) that is very low output but one of the most natural mics I've heard. Like Myles suggested, it's great as a mono overhead. I've also got a Beyer M260 that gets used a lot as a dual mic on guitar amps. It's so dark it would be near unusable on it's own, but it sound's so fat and thick.

[stosostu]

One thing I like to tell people about ribbons (my favourite type of mic) is that they respond differently to other mics because they move differently. In a dynamic or a condenser the sound strikes the diaphram causing it to move back and activate the movement to electrical conversion, but then it relies on the 'springyness' of the diaphram to return to its previous position. This is not the case with a ribbin mic. As the air pressure increases as sound travels towards the ribbon, it moves away, but once the sound pressure wave has passed the ribbon there is higher pressure on the rear of the ribbon and lower on the front so it is the sound pressure that moves the ribbon, in both directions. In fact it is the variation of pressure either side of the ribbon, or the pressure gradient, that causes the ribbon to move, and since the ribbon foils is so thin and light it closely approximates the air it is replacing and thus moves in a close approximation to the actual air movement created by the sound wave. To my mind this gives a much better representation of the sound wave than any other type of microphone. JMNSHO.

Buy one and try it, I have no doubt you will like it.

[Hookemeister]

Get an Apex 205... A long frame ribbon... Amazon have them for US$85

Then replace the stock transformer with Lundahl.

Get the ribbon tension checked.

That will be a good cost effective introduction to ribbons.

[Hookemeister]

Forgot to mention that with any ribbon mic (unless it's active) you'll need a clean pre with a lot of gain if you're using it with a soft signal.

Ribbons are great on percussion & brass. Very hard to overload.

Also combine a ribbon with a 57 on guitar amps... good combination.

[Manning]

Cool - thanks everyone for the input. I'll try and pick up a relatively decent one soon. Ben's Judas is mighty tempting.

It seems a lot of people using them on guitar cabs. I've more or less abandoned cab miking ever since I got my Fractal. It just goes straight into the DAW.

[obutcher]

I like to show people how they work by folding a bit of paper into ridges and blowing on it so they can see how the spring reacts to the compression/rarefaction of the air hitting it. Also a good way to understand why they're figure 8.

[capitalK]

i used a cheapy carillon ribbon along side a 57 for guitars. used a bunch of guitars (sg, several tele's, gibbo hollow body, electric company aluminium guitar) for variety of tone thru a fender vibrolux.
the carillon is very tubby, thick and for lack of a better word, grabby... like the low mid content was compressed. along with the harder sound of the 57, it was a great combination that we've used several times for a solid rock sound.
it also gets a Guernsey as a "ringo" over shoulder mic for drums.

not a fantastic mic on its own, but very usable. fairly low self noise, and you can shove it right up on the grill of a cab if you like, it loves it!

plus if you break it, it's not something that'll make you cry...
good 1st ribbon purch i recon.

hired a royer sf24 from mixmasters, amazing drum room mic, oh's and piano.
had mixed results on guitar.

coles 4038 are my fav on drums.

has anyone tried the coles 4050's? they seem great value for a blumlein that you can detach into dual mono.

[Manning]

Anyone ever tried the Avantone CR14? The price looks reasonable for someon just testing the waters.
http://www.audiochocolate.com.au/produc ... ts_id=3015

[peat]

Actually there's this new thing Bens bringing out called the 'Angus' (go figure).
It's a volume lifter for non 48v (passive) ribbon mics.
You connect it inline as close to the mic as possible and hit it with 48v.
They're not available yet but Ben reckons it's great for boosting the gain of ribbon mics.
The 48v does not go thru to the mic.

Sounds very similar to the Cloud Lifter:

http://cloudmicrophones.com/products/

[audioio]

I've been told that the issues occur when you've got 48v on a TRS/Bantam mic patchbay (tip hits first and sends 48v unevenly etc), and that some older mics occasionally had different wiring schemes than what is now standard.
Any modern mic will be fine with 48v I would think, but it's probably an OK habit to being careful with 48v and ribbons.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmHgPbSqhAE

[Manning]

Well that was well worth watching - thanks!

[Alistair]

I think that's where I learnt it! I guess my memory is still working somewhat!

[chribble]

hey alister i've got an old b&o mic too with the 3 way switch.
like this

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachme ... er-bm6.jpg

nice mic but needs SO much gain

[quote="Alistair"][quote="Chris H"].......now the phantom power thingy...... I am no teckie as I often have to point out....[/quote]
I think you're spot on. I've been told that the issues occur when you've got 48v on a TRS/Bantam mic patchbay (tip hits first and sends 48v unevenly etc), and that some older mics occasionally had different wiring schemes than what is now standard.
Any modern mic will be fine with 48v I would think, but it's probably an OK habit to being careful with 48v and ribbons.

I've got a couple of ribbons- an old B&O (looks just like a Royer 121) that is very low output but one of the most natural mics I've heard. Like Myles suggested, it's great as a mono overhead. I've also got a Beyer M260 that gets used a lot as a dual mic on guitar amps. It's so dark it would be near unusable on it's own, but it sound's so fat and thick.[/quote]

[Alistair]

Very cool! I think mine is the BM5- it looks near identical to a royer. I could be wrong, but does the top of yours screw off? I think there is a way to combine them to make a stereo ribbon.
I had mine rewired and cleaned up by Samar audio in the states. Like you say, sound great but mine usually needs about 60-70dB of gain. I've been thinking o checking out a Cloudlifter or similar.

[rick]

the real clue to ribbons , besides they are fashionable
is no matter what you do to them no matter how hard you try
they can not output a square wave !

so if you put them on something like a distorted guitar cabinet and they dont instantly tear up and get wrecked
you end up with a softer less harsh sounding version of the distortion

oh and they generally dont have a very good hf response , so things dont sound too bright like a lot of shitty condensers make them

but seeing nobody ever talks about the cannot output a square wave factor and seeing that i have a bunch of ribbons but consider them not my go to mikes

perhaps it really is all about fashion ?

[Toddo]

I love ribbon mics, especially the Coles 4038's. I Also use the AEA R84's and have used the Royer 121's and RCA 44's in the past. They are great for when you need a real natural sound. Great as room mics, great on brass, sax, acoustic bass, strings etc. They are delicate so you need to be careful with high spl's

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the rear pattern is a little brighter than the front, not much but they are. I love the Blumeline technique you can do with them and they sound nicer/ smoother than using a large diaphragm condensors in fig.8.

As for budget, 1-2k is where they are. Coles 4038's go for around $1200 and are great value.

[ChrisW]

Just adding to the couple of comments that ribbons aren't bright (in a good way), one of the most used tricks with the Coles 4038 is to pile a ton of treble eq on them. They just sweeten up beautifully. I'm mostly talking drum room or overheads for snare and cymbals etc....

[Ben M]

Just adding to the couple of comments that ribbons aren't bright (in a good way), one of the most used tricks with the Coles 4038 is to pile a ton of treble eq on them. They just sweeten up beautifully. I'm mostly talking drum room or overheads for snare and cymbals etc....

If it's alright to clarify Chris, piling on the air/treble should be done after recording not while tracking. But of course on the return channel from DAW or tape would be cool. Just not to DAW/tape. IMHO.

Hope that's ok to butt in.

[mylesgm]

If I 'm going to tape I try to do any top boosting before it hits the tape so that when I'm boosting in the mix I'm not boosting lots of noise. I boost any low stuff post tape so that it doesn't over drive the tape. Especially with ribbons as they can be a little noisy already due to the low output.... my .02c

M

[Chris H]

I normally add the highs while tracking, digital or tape. Did this last weekend recording double bass. Had a Neuman U87 aimed at the right plucking hand and an RCA back from the body aimed at the F hole bridge area. Added highs with the 32k on the Avalon 747 comp. The 87, no eq going, into an optro comp. Pre for both was an Amek Neve 9098.

[Ben M]

A little bit before tape and then a little bit after is probably a fine idea. But “piling” it on from the get go especially to a DAW I wouldn’t do. Too much voltage/energy that’s getting away from what ribbons do best – retain a natural sound. Before piling high end I'd more likely filter the bot bot

I guess I tend to use ribbons in a close proximity to the instrument so the idea of adding bass frequencies really never factors in and I’m close enough to have a neutral mid and high. I usually record with them within 2 feet on a cabinet (hpf 80hz) or from over the drummers head (flat) so I’ve got all options to mess with it later. In the mix the drum halo ribbon would get a broad sprinkling of 12-18 khz plus a little 2khz and the guitar cab mic would normally get a small boost at 7 khz..
Sadly I’ve never successfully used a ribbon to record a vocal. So it’s drums and guitars for me.
Great to hear how everyone uses them though.
Any tips for ribbons on Vox?