Is high end audio gear really necessary these days?

[stosostu]

Just as a discussion starter:

Since, these days, 99% of audio product is delivered to the customer via an MP3 player and ear buds is there really a commercial justification for spending mega dollars on high end gear to record the product in the first place?

The cat is now amongst the pigeons..............

[mylesgm]

Well after the mic shootout the other day I think there will be a resounding yes to mics... In fact I would easily say that the front end (mics/preamps/tracking comps/eqs etc) is as important as it ever was and it will continue to be so. As to other gear its all about your own workflow but for me recall is important so a modicum of delicious outboard married to the best plugins I can get (and the skills to use them) works for me. Do I want more hi end gear? silly question of course but where would I put it?

[waitup]

1. Make a recording in beautiful rooms using great instruments mics, preamps, compressors and equalizers.
2. Make the same recording in a bedroom using crap instruments, $100 condenser mics and an mbox.
3. Make both recordings into an MP3 and then listen to them both on iPod earbuds...

If you can't hear the difference.... errr.

My point is just because the end medium is MP3 on headphones, doesn't negate everything before it.

[jkhuri44]

if you're writing shoegaze, probably not.
if you're writing grindcore probably not.

A better response...

If you look at a GML preamp...you can see it might cost several thousand dollars. Compare that to a DAV electronics BG1 which costs 1K inc shipping.

Compare ANY high end pre costing several grand to a JLM pre....again, divide down the costs....

In my opinion, it's not justified belting out shitloads of money on SOME pieces... with technology improving the way it is, and companies smarting up to the current situation for musicians.

Thsi question is really general and doesnt really have an answer. Does high end gear have a place....it depends on what you apply that question to... is it necessary for a hi fi classical label? yes...iis it necessary for a youtube sensation?? no?!....

[mylesgm]

good points Jamil. I guess it boils down to what are we calling hi end? If we are talking a 4 channel GML mic pre (that for some unfathomable reason George put the phantom switch on the back !$!@#$!!!) versus a DAV or a BAN or any of the well designed DIY then I'll say no we don't need the slutty over priced pieces, well at least I don't and I've done the broadest range of styles I can think of. But if we are talking the difference between a be!@#$%^& B2 'valve mic' vs. a u89, 414, u87, m582, um70 etc then yes I do. I'd love some of the really hi end mics too but the upper middle ground is good enough for me.

[jkhuri44]

if you require headroom in a micpre...then something that costs more than 500 dollars will probably be necessary. If you like paying 3 trillion dollars for black brushed steel, be my guest

There comes a point where an extra "x" dollars for "Y" electronic component to elminate "z" compromise, is just not really worth it...

my general philosophy is if something makes me go "f@#$ yeah", its a good piece of gear. Some expensive things make me do that, while others dont .

[audioio]

There comes a point where an extra "x" dollars for "Y" electronic component to elminate "z" compromise, is just not really worth it...

As with all things, it's the law of diminishing returns.

[jkhuri44]

another point to make....

this question makes me think that...if you're asking, you may not care about the quality of work you produce? i mean, i personally hate shitty quality recordings...(when the goal is for them to be good). if the mastering is going f@#$ it up, or if its going to end up on youtube, that is a separate issue to whether im going to produce a tune poorly.

This weekend, i was watching Samsung's new Vimeo app on their new TVs...i've never seen streaming online media look this good in my life..(1080p) streaming music videos....looked amazing, and audio was crisp as f@#$ too...

So, im not sure the whole low res thing needs to last for long. companies like vimeo are a light of hope imo.

[ChrisW]

Yes, one has a sense of personal pride in one's work.
Also, I don't want to spend all day slaving over shitty sounding audio.
Of course, you don't need expensive high-end gear to create great audio, just the skill and an ear.
Finally, the mp3 isn't the end of all audio.
We're still listening to albums that were recorded in the 50's and 60's.
So I think it's worth future proofing your work, unless you only think it's relevant to 2012 or 13?
Who knows what listening formats people will be using in 5, 10, 15 year's time.

[rob]

I just repaired a $12,500 stereo power amp. It is considered "high end". I think it sounds like crap! Where to from here?

[The Tasmanian]

Another simple way to look at this is to think of adjusting focus on a camera.
Bad focus/ shit lens and you can do nothing to make it into a good photo.
High end gear (not necessarily expensive ) gives you a sharp defined beautiful image that is easily manipulated in the post production (plug-in and outboard) world. And all the processes following are easier to do due to the clarity of the image/recording.
Low end stuff is captured out of focus - and the majority of the time one is attempting to use EQ's etc to make up for the lack of focus when the image was captured.
So capture the image beautifully with great pre's and mic's and you can do anything the mind can imagine
Great preamps and great mics = great camera and great lens

History says - MP3's as a format will be gone very soon - so why even consider it in your work, or the recording or mixing or mastering process as the final format/quality of your work?
(as mentioned) If you have little money then build high end kits.

Shitty gear > one usually spends stupid amounts of time attempting to mix it to sound like it was recorded with the good shit (and it wont)

[stosostu]

You see, that's the point. We all love the sound of good quality audio and using good quality gear, which, of course is not the question. The people who consume just about all of the audio product these days are more than happy with the replay from an MP3 player through ear buds and I often see them sharing an ear bud each, from one player, (so all the work done getting a good stereo spread is not being appreciated).

Of course there will always be a place for quality audio, the classics, jazz, etc and those people who play R'n'R, and pop on good systems, but they are very much the last 1% in commercial audio sales, (remember sales pay the bills).

The reason I brought this up was that I was given an MP3 to listen to that had been recorded by a local school band. They had used the minimum of equipment, SM57s and a B@#$%^ger mixer into a laptop running some free, downloaded program. They had then produced their MP3.

They selected the material wisely, played it well and did a reasonable job of the recording and mix down, and IMO the result compared favourably with some of the commercial MP3s my teenage daughter gives me to listen to, for what that's worth.

I am absolutely sure that the master, played through a decent system would show up all the issues we would expect, but then we don't sell masters very often.

Then again, I'm not about to junk all my heavy, hot, glass gear and buy a laptop and a B@#$%^ger mixer.

[Thirteen]

We have reached a point now where the gear is usually better than the performer or the engineer or the producer if what I hear on the radio is anything to go by.

[wez]

such an interesting - and in some ways, brave - question.

in the last 2-3 years i've been forced to re-evaluate a lot of things I believed, due to changing financial circumstances... and just as importantly, my clients changing financial circumstances. combine that with a significant rise in the popularity of the DIY ethos, and I have a really different view of things than i did just a couple of years ago.

previously I would've said yes, you have to start as high quality as you can... it's not about asking 'EVEN if it ends up as an mp3', more like 'ESPECIALLY if it ends up as an mp3'. I flew the flag for having work professionally mastered (ie by a guy who ONLY does mastering) and not by a jack-of-all-trades type... and definitely not by yourself! I've got my clients to spend big on hiring the best mics etc, when they wanted to spend their money on marketing and photo shoots. I've tried to explain why we need to hire a 480L instead of using a plug-in reverb... that sort of thing.

but you know, things have shifted... the reality is that there is almost no budget for so many projects, and so few people seem to care about the quality issues i (used to?) care about, that I've been forced to make an adjustment and embrace the DIY ethic... to a point. lately i've been hearing a lot of lo-fi tape stuff - half-inch 8-track kinda stuff - where the machine has so terribly obviously not been set up properly, the pedant in me is screaming inside, "line up the machine! get it serviced! use the right tape!"... but it's only me that hears it. and the guys making the record... they don't care. it's not as important to them as writing songs and getting them into the world - for as little money as possible, because they know they'll never see a cent. i'm seeing this a lot recently, and you know what... i get it now. i think it's a direct result of the home recording revolution crossed with the paradoxically depressing but ultimately liberating realisation that we're not going to make any money out of this, so let's not spend any.

having said all that... this week i'm working on a lo-fi indie project where everything was recorded on a single Samson USB mic plugged directly into a laptop. i'm not enjoying it.

[ChrisW]

Don't let no money and mp3 quality drag you down.

[NYMo]

Well said Wez

I sort of had a (small) epiphany when I had to sell all my better gear last year (divorce).
So I ended up this year with a lot of lower quality stuff..not really bad stuff...but not as good.

I've learnt it's about degrees....higher end stuff is definitely better , but it's not an exponential quality jump...
It's a few degrees better ( and my a/b ear is reasonably good !)

[mylesgm]

Well having gone through a similar reduction in equipment I can say that I need a certain level of quality and passed that point it doesn't really matter for most projects. Mic type and placement is often far more important that which particular model, same goes for when to compress and when to eq, when to mic close and when to mic far, how many layers of parts etc etc. These are all far more important than the choice between a u87, a 414 and an NT2 and if you listen to the mic and adjust accordingly for the tone you envisioned in the first place then you are far more likely to end up with a result you wanted than you are if you get out all the expensive mics and use them because they are expensive.

I make my living doing this and I need to provide the best service I can at the price my clients can afford so that I can continue to eat. That requires a flexibility on equipment depending on a budget (that is out of my control) whilst still delivering the best outcome I can and that my clients expect and I know that if I can get the sound I want out of a $1000 mic rather than $4000 I'm going to pick the $1000 one and probably buy two. My clients mostly couldn't care less and the ones that care fall into these categories; have the budgets to pay for it so we do; don't have the budgets but have the lust and I usually don't work for them more than once because its not a fun experience; don't have the budgets and are prepared to work within the parameters to create the best outcome.

I guess it all depends on who thinks the gear is necessary as to whether it actually is. And I guess it depends on your definition of Hi End. Are we talking simply expensive gear or gear that is hi end outcome regardless of price. I have a need for the latter not the former.

[Julian Nichols]

I'm going to set the cat back onto the pigeons with this one...

I seem to remember (please correct me if I'm wrong) Rick having this to say on this very forum back in about 2003 :

"If you can't make a good record with a Digi 001 then you can't make a good record" /end quote

Let's just pause for a moment here.

I don't think that I would be drawing too long a bow to claim that I can now very easily download a 'free' DAW (reaper?) and free effects that could easily surpass a Digi 001 system circa 2003. Sure, I would need a bit of I/O, but the lower end of the market has gone ahead in leaps and bounds there too.

Now that revelation doesn't get me or anyone ANY closer to making a good record, BUT... if you put it in context, it starts to become apparent that it is not the gear, it is the user. Or, to be more specific, it is the ATTITUDE. If you fork out for a U87, you damn well spend the time learning how to use it. Same goes for a hardware reverb, compressor, EQ... you can see where this is headed.

So you download a free plugin. Lets just say for arguments sake that it is actually as good as a Lexicon ***. So what? You don't have anything invested in it, no 'skin in the deal'. You find a 'massive royal albert hall' preset, quickly tweak the wet/dry mix, and alt-tab back to gear%*&% to find another you-beaut free plugin.

I love hi end gear. That's why I pay people to use their high end gear. That is why I pay to track real live instruments / vocals. And pay mastering guys. But in many ways, 'we little guys' have it far better than we could ever have dreamed of in our little home studios. We just need to put it into perspective sometimes.

And, while we are talking perspective...

I am old enough (just) to remember listening to records in the late 80's. My dad had a record player, and an enviable collection of classic vinyl. My friends had record players, their parents, etc. Every system I ever heard when I was young was played through those tall brown cabinet speakers with shitty cardboard drivers. I guarantee that those little white earbuds that come with an iPod sound MANY times better than any of the god awful boomy 'hifi' systems that I grew up listening to.

But they still made good records.

[mylesgm]

I grew up in a musical household with a great hifi. I now have a decent hifi in my house (and the studio too) and just can not understand why musicians don't have decent sound systems. Completely mystifying.

[jkhuri44]

on that note....i refuse to produce for iphone ear buds...i seriously dont give 2 f@#$s about how my mix sounds on that shit. if the majority of people are listening on that shit...the majority is ...pretty well f'd....i realise that most of you guys recording for bands get pestered by the commercial consensus to do just that against your will.

[mylesgm]

no one has ever asked what will my mixes sound like on earbuds. I have had people listen to the mix from another room and critique from there though with the reasoning most people wont be sitting in front of the speakers listening...

[rick]

Is high end gear really neccesary these days

Of course not


And so


Just what is your point ?

There is a point in everybodies life where they are
Just doing the best they can because they can
Because they must

If anybody doesn't get the high end thing
It's ok
I don't think it's sane finacially
Or neccesary sound wise
But it works it's makes my life run forwards
And I don't EVER worry about gear or the quality of the sounds I make
That is the payback for the price of admission

[Wiz]

I am finding High End gear, an expensive lesson in recording technique.

It may not make sense. But, because I am self taught, never been in a real commercial studio, ala sing sing 301 etc, the only experience I have is my own gear, and 1,200,000 hours reading the internet and audio mags.

So along my way, I have been amassing better and better gear, sometimes getting that big aha moment, sometimes going, well that just cost me a fortune and didn't really do that much.

But, its funny, humbling and heartwarming and breaking all at the same time.

I have found, owning a KM84 , after using a Rode NT5 over 10 years, that not only now do I get it, about using KM84's on acoustic guitar for instance, but I see that their is a place for the NT5, its over there in the bin, 8), just kidding, no it has its place.

Ditto for things like Hi End preamps vs low end.

Owning a 1073 and some JLM preamps, shows me the place for the usage of the preamps on my interface.

Also, owning some hi end microphones does the same, for the lower end ones I have got.

Once, you plug your SM57 into a 1073 on snare, after reading about that signal path for over 10 years, and then you come to the heartbreaking reality, that your snare sound still sucks...it makes you sit and think, after you have finished sobbing like a two year old in the lollie isle of safeway....

Then you fix your sound at the source, because you know now , for the first time, your path is up to it.

I don't know if I am getting my point across, but, buying better gear, made me a better engineer, because it made me work harder, I had no crutch to stand on, being crap gear.


But the side benefit, is, If I had to use crap gear again, I would do a far better job with it. This is a point that is missed in a lot of these discussions. The reference you have in your head, to know what a good sound is. You need to get a reference, experience.

Also, buying the right better gear, holds its value.

set ramble mode:OFF

[Drumstruck]

yes, I'm afraid it still is...... for professional guys such as yourselves.

[Junction]

I think its much less about the gear or the cost of the gear, but more about knowing how to use your gear to capture the absolute best performance .... and with this you need to spend more time as a Producer rather than an Engineer

[Chris H]

I was at a venue to do a FOH mix and the artist asked if it could be recorded. The desk was a low budget yamaha 12 ch job. As I had my computer and Apogee Ensemble with me I recorded out of the insert's and back at the studio was happy with the results, no probs. Got a fine mix and synced it to the handy cam video and it was better than many high budget live recordings i hear regularly. So the point being other aspects of the process can muck it up far more than low end gear.
The question in my mind is these days, with the convenience of digital desks and MADI etc is there any need for a dedicated high end mobile recording van with vintage preamps etc?

[Sammas]

I just repaired a $12,500 stereo power amp. It is considered "high end". I think it sounds like crap! Where to from here?

back to preproduction? So many people seem to have the whole "audio engineering" thing worked out in terms of its worth to music... but for some reason, there are countless examples to the contrary. Take Joan Jett's 'I Love Rock n Roll'. That tune sounds nasty in terms of audio quality. It wouldn't surprise me if it were recorded in a bedroom... yet it hit the charts at number 1 and is listed in Rolling Stone Magazine's 100 Greatest Guitar Tracks of All Time.

Perhaps... just maybe... music turned to shit in the last 15 odd years because of those Audio Engineers with inflated senses of self importance in the success of music? In reality, it takes a whole lot of mis-doing to destroy a really great tune performed by good musicians.

There is a curve ball for you! You wanted a discussion, right?

I'll show myself out.

[mylesgm]

Perhaps... just maybe... music turned to shit in the last 15 odd years because of those Audio Engineers with inflated senses of self importance in the success of music? In reality, it takes a whole lot of mis-doing to destroy a really great tune performed by good musicians.

This is so true... both points really. Sad isn't it? There seem to be a number of 'engineers', 'producers' and hopefuls who got into engineering/producing because they couldn't play music but still wanted a piece of the sex, drugs and rock'n'roll and who have contributed nothing but ignorance and tastelessness. One of my favourite recordings I've made is one where there is one mic on the voice, one on the piano and one shared between the string trio and the trombone. Looked like such a stupid idea but the song shines through and the spill colouring all the instruments is what makes it sonically. 20 u47s would have screwed that recording.

[jkhuri44]

20 u47s would have made a normal audio technology article

[jasound]

I just repaired a $12,500 stereo power amp. It is considered "high end". I think it sounds like crap! Where to from here?

Better go back to the workshop then, hey Rob ; )