Building a Room - product suppliers and brands thread

[Barney Loveland]

As i'm about to embark on a room build and have many q's I thought i'd put up a thread and ask those who know.

What products have you used and like, which ones didn't work or were too expensive for the small % outcome.

Specifically i'm looking for a fixed external double glazed window. I know Chris mentioned the 'Polar' brand, any others someones used? Did you get the chippie to custom build them?

Also looking for a hinged external door, possibly with a double glazed window to let in some light.

Any thoughts on UPVC doors, Polar?

Sealant - Fuller firesound seems to get a good rap.

[Drumstruck]

I can recommend going with laminated glass rather than regular glass - at least for one of the panes - my movable partitions are laminated glass top half and it's far better soundproofing - but it is quite expensive..... I got the local glazer to fit mine.

[Senad]

Look for glass (and, in fact, all other materials) at demolition yards. I mention glass in particular, as I see it laying around those places a lot. I found all my 10mm laminated glass for my old place at a yard my friend used to park his truck at for FREE. So keep an eye on those empty block in industrial areas where owners of those blocks just leave stuff and forget it or are willing to get anything for.
As far as caulking goes...There was a propper product by Bostik at the time I Built (haven't seen it at Bunnings for a while) Which was $7-8 a tube in comparison to $15+ for the fire rated stuff. This Bostik stuff allowed for 25% movement in the join, so if you fill a gap of 10mm, it will stretch 2.5mm before cracking. Thats the % all the acoustical caulking products offer anyway.
Doors...demolition yards again...If you're remotely handy, you can build your own (which I did) out of 18mm MDF boards. 3x18mm (glued together) MDF door weighed in at 65kg and was soundproof as hell. An external,solid core door from Bunnings for $80 will do when properly sealed, but nothing like the one described above. Glass is very easy to build into the MDF type of door, although it will be your weakest link of the soundproofing, unles you go for 25-20mm thick glass (which is hard to find and expensive). But all the windows in studios are the weak link, so just get as thick as you can afford.
Insulation wise, bradford soundscreen rockwool seems to be the way to go. I used 75mm thick and I think it was about 32-35 KGs per m3 density. 75mmX580mmX1130mmx 6 pieces pack is about $45 i think. 580mm wide if your studs are at 600 centers and 430mm wide if at 450 centers.
For the wall lining, different materials = good. I had 2 layers of MDF and one layer of plaster to finish off. Ring companies that import long products and ask if they have any MDF packing boards laying around. I found a guy who was selling 180 boards of 18mm mdf that were 3.6m long and 600mm wide and picked it all up for $900. This was enough to line the LR with 2 layers +1 on ceiling and CR with one.
If you need resilient channel, I went through Lafarge plasterboard (where I got the plaster from) ordering from Rondo. Got the acoustic brackets from them as well which tie the internal wall frame to external brickwork, or whatever you have. Those are EXPENSIVE but good.
If you need someone to frame the walls, plaster them up, build acoustic treatment, install doors, widnows or anything else to do with studio build, let me know.

Good luck..

[Barney Loveland]

Thanks will look up bradford and bostik.

Has anyone actually used green glue in their build?

But the hard part is has anyone been involved with two builds, one with green glue and one without to compare?

Chris, (tasmanian) how did you go with your windows, custom or off the shelf?

[Manning]

Thread resurrection time.

Green glue - opinions? Best place to buy?
Quietwave - anyone used it? Any good?

Has anyone ever tried to build an outdoor isolation booth? Having just discovered my "timber on brick columns" floor can't support the weight of the booth I want, I am now looking at the concrete slab just outside the window of my control room. On the plus side, I get to keep a bedroom and have no mass restrictions for my booth. On the downside... well almost everything, water, termites, weather, etc.

[rick]

I have done extensive unscientific completly imperfect and yet somehow conclusive testing of green glue versus
( well lets call it grey glue )

I like the guys that sell green glue so if thats what you want to buy - buy it

[Senad]

A guy from QLD, I think it was, got in touch once offering green glue...I'll try look it up...
Here it is http://www.ultrafonic.com.au/
I haven't used it. Although have heard raves about it from serious people in the industry, I have always been a bit sceptical about it...For no particular reason..it just doesn't make much sense to me..
Outside is actually not a bad idea. If directly outside the window, you can still maintain the visual contact with the performer(s). Weather, termites shouldn't be a big issue. Such a small slab can be treated with termymesh (or whatever they call it) for not much money. Provided you won't have to move it I'd do it as follows:
I would build the outter walls out of solid masonry blocks, which would give you the best performance/cost ratio. When you pour the slab, separate the outter boarder (the width of the blocks you'd be using) from the rest of the slab, so you don't have to float the inside walls. That outter separated part would essentially be your "strip footing" as builders call it, and it would need to go around 300mm deep to support the blocks. Be sure to run all the cabling UNDER the footings and bring them up on the inner side of the slab, so that even the cables are not coupling your two parts of slab. Cover with concrete roof tiles, run some spouting around it and there's your outter shell.
Normal stud wall/plasterboard construction would apply on the inside.
Around 4-5K would get you a soundproof room where you could even track drums, as you're not on your house floor on stumps anymore

[Senad]

I have done extensive unscientific completly imperfect and yet somehow conclusive testing of green glue versus
( well lets call it grey glue )

[Senad]

Actually, NO GLUE has been my method and very efficient and satisfactory.

[rick]

oh my tests definately liked some goo in there between the sheets , but i dunno if the colour of it does that much work
in the dark

apples being apples and all that

besides my studio is basically floating lime rendered straw bales nothing to do with that plastered board wall sandwich construction .. but where i have used it .. i elected .. educated and feeling confident not to go green
( can i get a fifty shades of grey joke in here ..? )

oh yes the floating method of the straw was absolutely unscientically and totally tested by me to be beyond anything else I unscientically tested or have ever used or seen .. there will be more straw used over the years as i expand i am sure .

bottom line green glue has scientific data .. a world of fans and such a slingshot in the eye of a price
you have simply got to look at alternatives and apply your own reasoning to the issue .
you wont build it twice

[Senad]

And that's fair enough rick I reckon. I never tried anything between sheets of plasterboard and/or MDF...But be it green brown grey, whatever colour, only make it a different material in the middle, and it'll work GUARRANTEED, better than the outside layers on their own. Bread, salamy, bread always better than bread,bread,bread...
JUst be sure that when you apply that Goo..ahhemm Glue, it spreads all over the boards when sandwiched together so that it doesn't leave "hollow" spots in there which, I imagine, would cause some resonance between the two sheets being stuck with glue.

[rick]

well actually its the hollow spots you are trying to create with the goo
you are trying to make a spring or resonater
goo does decouple stuff better i have tested it
( err.. unscientifically but really really well tested )

[Senad]

well actually its the hollow spots you are trying to create with the goo
you are trying to make a spring or resonater
goo does decouple stuff better i have tested it
( err.. unscientifically but really really well tested )

Yes, you're trying to create ONE CONTINUOUS spring that is the Goo, but there shouldn't be any spots where the situation is: gyprock_air_gyprock. It should all be gyprock_goo_gyprock OVER THE WHOLE AREA. So I was saying that it is not ideal if the glue is not spread over the whole area of the sheets after they're pressed together.
So with Green Glue, you're not trying to decouple two sheets of whatever you're using, but to create another layer of springy material between those, which would give you better STC.

[rick]

nah uh ..
me thinks we have a difference of opinion
i am calling grey you can be any colour you want

[Senad]

rick, check this out http://www.greengluecompany.com/benefit ... teps-guide
note how the manufacturer constantly talks of it as "layer of green glue", even in the illustrations it's shown as a "full line" between 2 sheets of wahtever.
Sound hits the gyprock which vibrates in response. Vibrations (resonance) hits the Goo, whose molecular design allows the vibrations/resonance to be turned into a different form of energy - heat.
Once you have your internal and external walls decoupled, no more decoupling should take place as that would then create a triple leaf system. Green glue is usually used on the internal layer of this two leaf system, between layers of different material. So that's why I was saying earlier that no "air pockets" should exist between two layers which are stuck together by the Goo.

OK I found the right illustration on their site to explain it. This shows that all decoupling is done by resillient channel, or noiseproof clips as they call it and GG is just used as another layer of mass.




Scroll down 3/4 of this page http://www.greengluecompany.com/benefit/how-to-use-it and they talk about exact same thing - creating air pocket between 2 layers of "drywall".
As long as you've applied the grey Goo the way GG people describe applying theirs, you should be fine.

If you're grey I'll be translucent

[Manning]

Yay for getting this discussion going, I'm sure lots of folks are interested.

Sen - the concrete is already in place and not mine to mess with. Whatever I build has to be freestanding and (in principle) removable. It's under cover (it's a carport) but is still exposed to the elements.

So I'm going for a triple wall - the outer layer for the elements, then the double wall for sound. External dims are 2.4m by 1.8m, and I should be able to get a 2.0 by 1.4 space inside that, with 20cm walls. (The exterior element wall can go outside the main dimensions.)

I spent today with a builder to figure out how to build the base. I learned all sorts of stuff I didn't know about timber and such.

My main idea is a aluminium outer wall, then weatherproofing, then yellowtongue/glue/gyprock, insulated frame space, then gyprock/glue/gyprock. The base is almost the same idea, but with a treated timber frame at the bottom, and a yellowtongue/glue/yellowtongue floor.

[Senad]

What about roof and ceiling Manning?

[Manning]

Ceiling same as the walls, but with a stronger internal frame and a small gable on top. It will also be in two sections to make it easier to install. I'm double joisting the floor to support the weight.

I'm designing it in Sketch-up now, I'll post my plans when I get it done (it won't be elegant, I'm no draughtsman, but you'll get the idea).

[Senad]

great...Looking fwd to the plans. Should be good little booth.

[Gian]

I think Rick refers to the colour grey as he uses a different product which is cheaper and which is a grey colour.

Just because they show a solid line a green doesn't mean it must be a complete solid mass of green goo between gyprock. My understanding is that there needs simply to be a decoupling between the two boards. That does not mean u cannot have air gaps. Just enough to stop vibrations from one board being absorbed by the other one.

[Manning]

Could someone elaborate on what this "grey glue" actually is?

[gigpiglet]

i agree with rick
and have done plenty of "testing" like him

"grey glue" (i think rick and i are on the same page here) is stud adhesive...
its grey-ey blue-ey in colour
put it on with a spatular in "dollops" (i usually do around 32 or so per sheet)
it doesnt dry hard (its meant to have "flex" in it)

but like someone else said, bread/ salami/ bread.

[Manning]

Gareth - many, many thanks.

To the Bunnings I shall go.

[Senad]

I think Rick refers to the colour grey as he uses a different product which is cheaper and which is a grey colour.

Just because they show a solid line a green doesn't mean it must be a complete solid mass of green goo between gyprock. My understanding is that there needs simply to be a decoupling between the two boards. That does not mean u cannot have air gaps. Just enough to stop vibrations from one board being absorbed by the other one.

Gian...the point of green glue is not decoupling, trust me. Decoupling is done by having a room within a room design or using resillient channel on one side of the frame, provided that the same frame is cladded by another layer of mass on the other side and you want to decouple them. DEcoupling should be taken care of, well before you start using GG.If you decouple two sheets of material which make up one layer of mass in your two leaf system, then you've just created triple leaf system. See the attached picture from their site. The vibrations are not stopped by GG, they excite both layers, but GG absorbs them from BOTH layers and turns into heat




Green and grey is just a joke (as I got it) rick sort of kicked off as the green glue is too expensive and ordinary sealant/adhesive can be used to get similar results, and then I replied with being translucent..By green lines I was just trying to explain things, just like they're trying with the illustration. No, I didn't think one colour works better than another
I think polyurethane sealant/adhesive would be much better option between plasterboard sheets than stud adhesive as it's much more flexible when set.

Imagine this:
You take 2 sheets of gyprock and apply some silicone evenly across the whole area of one sheet (let's say 3mm thick layer covering every square mm of the area) and then press the other sheet on top of that. NOte that silicone doesn't have to appear to cover the whole area when you're applying it, but apply enough so that once you press the 2 together it squeezes out and fills in the whole area.
Now take only a few squirts of silicone and apply to, lets say, 40% (as opposed to about 70% on the first sandwich) of the 1st sheet and then press the 2nd sheet on top of it.
Let both sandwiches dry.
What sort of a sound do you think you'd hear from the 1st as opposed to the 2nd sandwich if you just knocked/tapped on them.

OK, I've just email-ed them...Hope to get a quick response so they can clear things up.

[Senad]

i agree with rick
and have done plenty of "testing" like him

"grey glue" (i think rick and i are on the same page here) is stud adhesive...
its grey-ey blue-ey in colour
put it on with a spatular in "dollops" (i usually do around 32 or so per sheet)
it doesnt dry hard (its meant to have "flex" in it)

but like someone else said, bread/ salami/ bread.

Use polyurethane sealant rather than stud adhesive.
And, since we're on colours, I've only ever seen green and pink coloured stud adhesive
They come in buckets of about 3-4 litres usually.

[rick]

na uh

I am talking abut fullers fire-sound .. Its grey its cheap ..Much cheaper , it doesnt quite have the same viscosity as green glue.. But whatever.. Green glue has scientific testing going on .. Cannot argue against that !

fire sound has lots of testing going on too ..but no marketing

senad i understand what you saying with what green glue are posting as their system

but the reality is the application of the stuff by its very nature DOES is in fact create air pockets all over the place

The spring effect that stops the transmission is actually worked out off several points of support .. Think about floating floors with a gridded suspension and you will see what I mean ..
kinda of the same but opposite of what you are saying
Their pictures are all very nice , but that stuff is sticky icky green stuff .. Not a a magic line between two powerpoint presentations ..

i applied that same theory i have to walls and roofs with excellent results .. not just floors

the system green glue have drawn as you are explaining it is simply impractical unless money is no object .. and even then i venture without a pressure rollar impossible
but people use it and love it out of the gun like spaghetti .. i am not dissing it

the application is more like crazy string from when we were kids then an even rollared airtight coat
it would be impossible to do that actually without bathtubs full of it and serious presses actually

there are other products that apply a viscous coating to complete boards and i have seen them used in studios
( and in fact pony is one of those with a sandwich board that claims amazing results )
As well as different laminates sandwiches in speaker boxes .. Its quite a field of acoustics ..
i have really read up and studied it

all based on the idea that if you cannot have ACTUAL isolation ..this laminate goo is the next best thing

but check any serious acoustic research data and the best transmission specs are done with total isolation .. which is expensive .. and space hungry

Green glue .. Double stud walls .. All the usual tricks used in common studio construction is actually pretty lightweight and half arsed compared to what is really required ..

But the reality of what you can actually achieve with light weight affordable half arsed typical construction is tested by any of us with the simple tap transmission test ..

get on one side of your wall and tap it with a hammer put your hand on the other side of the wall and see if you can feel any vibration .. if you cannot you are isolated .. good stuff

Green glue helps reduce structure bourne vibration pretty damn well actually ..
but i can find no difference using green OR grey glue

You cannot get the same result from ANY compound that actually hardens when it dries .. Like silicon like stud adhesive or like screws ! , the goo is creating a moving wall .. That is the basis for the sound loss and their for isolation .

my walls are double or in some cases triple isolated straw bails — there is no structural transmission between them
....none

however there are currently no real doors or air tight seals all over the place so my place
Is still half arsed !

Getting a place air tight is MUCH MUCH MUCH more important then green glue or anything you do actually .

but getting something airtight is never talked about too much ......it is 85% of the race
Green glue is like maybe 5 % .. But if you read the internets ..
well better get 20 cases its magical stuff

.. Right then .... About now my friends that import green glue are going to ring me up and get upset ..

I am going to nuke this thread soon enough read up folks ... it's going


and yes yes .. spelling .. i am dyslexic it's a fact

[Gian]

I love your posts, Rick. They are always very down to earth. Love it!

[Senad]

The spring effect that stops the transmission is actually worked out off several points of support .. Think about floating floors with a gridded suspension and you will see what I mean ..
kinda of the same but opposite of what you are saying
Their pictures are all very nice , but that stuff is sticky icky green stuff .. Not a a magic line between two powerpoint presentations ..

I promise, I won't choke you after this anymore :-0 ,..but rick, floating the floor and green glue between boards is not the same. Check that pic out from their site. The ceiling is "floated" from the subfloor by resillient channel (or clips with hat channel in the case in that pic) and then GG is used between gyprock layers. OK I'll give up trying to say there shouyldn't be any air pockest in between, but GG is not used for purpose of decoupling, that's waht I will say.
In the old days, back in europe, we used to build radio station studios with lead between layers. The GG does/tries to do exact the same thing, with lead being much heavier and so superior to GG, which in turn is much easier to work with henjce more appealing and easier to sell.
Signing off now

[Senad]

Sorry..
yes rick..that fire rated fuller stuff is good. Both, instead of GG and as a gap sealer that won't crack 2 years down the track. Allows 25% movement before it cracks.

OK im out....I promise

[bennybanana]

As someone who is in the middle of a home studio build this thread is fascinating. I have the frame, resilient channel and insulation up and am ready to hang my 2 layers of 16mm firecheck. I have been reading lots about whether to green glue the 2 layers together but have decided to just screw them each to the RC - for me on acreage with neighbours around 80 metres away the small amount of sound loss vs the price of doing so doesn't make sense, and I am confident the sounds of the natural world outside won't be a problem either. I have been very diligent in using the Firesound to seal gaps in the frame and between the frame and the floor and have made sure the insulation is gapless too - I have been applying the Airtight is 85% rule too! - , but reading that you can use the firesound in a somewhat similar way to the green glue is something I actually had not considered. It makes sense in a financial way, but the question I have is how much of the grey goo has to be applied? Does it need to be applied around the edges only, or should it be applied as a full layer over the entire first sheet of firecheck? Thanks for any feedback