learning to play a real instrument is so last century...

[The Tasmanian]

Oh dear - that's such a blinkered outlook on music.
Great muso's have open minds - great minds!
And if you hate computers THAT much - get off email and get some chalk and write on pieces of stone and mail them to me - and I promise I'll type out your posts and put em up here ....sheeesh!!!

I didnt want to beat a drum - i needed to play the maschine pads to get ideas FAST. to get value out of our time.
I didnt want a bunch of Bondi Djembe players playing in a drum circle with their shirts off!

Some of us want to spend our lives banging 2 sticks together - I don't have a problem with that if you find it perpetually satisfying.
Others believe music is art and expression.

[Drumstruck]

Oh dear - that's such a blinkered outlook on music.
Great muso's have open minds - great minds!
And if you hate computers THAT much - get off email and get some chalk and write on pieces of stone and mail them to me - and I promise I'll type out your posts and put em up here ....sheeesh!!!

I didnt want to beat a drum - i needed to play the maschine pads to get ideas FAST. to get value out of our time.
I didnt want a bunch of Bondi Djembe players playing in a drum circle with their shirts off!

Some of us want to spend our lives banging 2 sticks together - I don't have a problem with that if you find it perpetually satisfying.
Others believe music is art and expression.

Blinkered, phillistine and pig-ignorant You gotta get all them terms togevver. Close-minded and depressingly negative too. Perhaps my humour is a bit too out of touch with reality.......

[jkhuri44]

^ you are doing , what exactly...on an audio forum....shouldnt you be using smoke signals to engineers with tape machines that play instruments?

[Manning]

I daresay that in the 1930's there were numerous guitar players dismissing electric guitars as hideous and non-musical. Cue the 70s and it was pianists and synths (I recall Queen's famous "No synthesisers" claim on every album... until they started using them).

I'm a classical violinist and jazz guitarist who uses Cubase and loops when they suit my needs. The new tools will produce some awful stuff, but real musicians will always come through.

[Drumstruck]

^
^
I'll leave the smoke signals to the musicians .... but tape is not such a bad idea for us cave dwellers - I hear it's making a comeback too

[rob]

I spent nearly 10 years working in the Electronic Music Studios at the Elder Conservatorium.
We made music out of anything that we fancied and that inspired us. We had computers ( Synclavier ) and synths ( moog and VCS III ) we had tape recorders and microphones. In one room someone would be writing music on a piano, in another someone would be composing a 20 minute piece using only beer bottles. There were full orchestras sweating away, there was one guy who only wrote music by writing computer code. Lots of found sounds were recorded and manipulated way beyond recognition. I did a 15 minute piece using only sounds found in the men's toilet next to the studio. Crikey this was 30 years ago. We didn't see the need for any restrictions about instruments or machines. If there'd been ipads, we'd have used them. If there was an acoustic guitar leaning in the corner and that sparked an idea we'd use that.

[The Tasmanian]

Umm.....so Manning - i bet you've come up with many new ideas for violin and guitar by using cubase /loops etc?
I'll bet you are a better muso because of your embrace of technology? (compared to if you ignored computers and had never used them?)

And Rob - I hope that course is still going.
30 years ago - it would have been so ahead of its time (in this country)

[jkhuri44]

in 1950....Stockhausen was coming up with the blue print of digital/DAW style notation....(blocks, drum parts, etc)...im sure if Steinberg were around then, Stockhausen would be promoting their gear

[The Tasmanian]

Go Stocko!!

[Manning]

Umm.....so Manning - i bet you've come up with many new ideas for violin and guitar by using cubase /loops etc?
I'll bet you are a better muso because of your embrace of technology? (compared to if you ignored computers and had never used them?)

I'm certainly a better composer and especially a much better orchestrator. I learned my composing in the 80's with paper, a piano and my aural imagination. Now I can execute my ideas almost instantly, plus I can try weird instrument combinations (eg. harp and bassoon) that I really couldn't access any other way. And of course, I can go the Thomas Newman route of orchestral instruments with synths and five continents worth of percussion (on that note, get Stormdrum if you haven't already).

Plus (a la Frank Zappa) I'm free to write stuff that real musicians (including myself) simply couldn't play. Finally I regard "mechanical" music as a genre in its own right, so a mechanical loop suits me just fine whenever I need one.

Having said all of that, I'd be a very different musician if I didn't have my grounding in classical and jazz playing and theory. I use the technology to get to what is in my head more efficiently. Too often I think people go where the technology leads them, and that leads to the banality which is so prevalent now.

[TimC]

orright orright time to chime in...

http://youtu.be/3vC5TsSyNjU
like a supercharged button accordian no? And sampling has been around for decades - but I would say a lot of time, skill and soul has gone into above performance (however soul-less you may think it is)

What is a "real instrument" anyway?
from some random online dictionary best suited to the argument:
Musicial Instrument
"any of various contrivances or mechanisms that can be played to produce musical tones or sounds"

If you rule out the ipad do you rule out the MPC/Akai sampler/FM synth/Moog/Fender strat and other technical/technological advances?

The harpsichord went out of fashion as new instruments were invented......

[The Tasmanian]

Geez - I thought guitar was hard to play......
Not my cuppa tea musically but wow such amazing co-ordination and dedication to his CRAFT
Mr Nimble fingers inspires me to want to do a speed typing course!

[Ausrock]

What is a "real instrument" anyway?
from some random online dictionary best suited to the argument:

Well that really carries some authority doesn't it. One could be forgiven for thinking you were attempting to create some bias

Musicial Instrument
"any of various contrivances or mechanisms that can be played to produce musical tones or sounds"

True definitions of contrivances and mechanisms are varied, just as the interpretation of what is musical is very much an individual choice.

[The Tasmanian]

Whats bias got to do with it?
It was a pretty fair description IMO - (it is 2012)
Show us some dictionary description that says musical instruments are limited to a certain range of implements?
And the individual choice point is so obvious - what else could it be?
I dont get your point here Ausrock?

[Ausrock]

Don't worry about it Chris, I have too much respect for your recent posts to get involved defending my comment

[The Tasmanian]

Why not discuss?
that's what we are doin here

[rick]

You know mr Townend I think that is the best set of posts
You have ever sent up to hmas turtlerock
I might hire Casey to make us all cut to the chase
And speak from the heart

Actually .. I am not overly flush right now
Better not
I am saving up for the router bit
To hollow out my pre l strat .

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks Rick - I'm still waiting for Casey to chime back in.
I hope he didn't freak over the content (I know he missed the humour).
I know I was pretty fixed in my views about music at his age - guitar was my world - I even use to sleep with my guitar from about 11-14 y/old.... then I started thinking about girls....

Hey - I'm gonna try that restaurant in Crown St when I'm up next - already googled where it is.
Wanna buy a 52 strat that I stuffed up with my router? I didnt make a jig for the hole, and the router spun outa control - and now I can fit my laptop in the body.
Glue and sawdust should fix it?
(Ha! I wish)

[Ausrock]

Why not discuss?
that's what we are doin here

Damn, that's a challenge I can barely resist . Unfortunately, I'm not "in theright frame of mind"..........two weeks ago this evening our work factory went up in flames, the company lost absolutely everything, laboratory, production equipment, etc., etc., not too mention approx. $8k of my own gear (woodworking, vacuum forming setup for making drum shells, shell moulds). Since then I've sourced new premises and some replacement equipment , meanwhile the boss has gone to our plant in the US leaving me to rebuild and try and get us back on our feet.

[Thirteen]

Computers and DAW's are so powerful and the software is so evolved that they can do everything better than in the past. We have effectively infinite tracks, access to every instrument and effect, every kind of correction and groove modification, entire suites of compressors and EQ's and processors on every channel and ultra low noise, wide bandwidth recording. Computers have put undreamed of production power, instrument simulations and sample libraries into the hands of everyone. Computer tools of amazing cleverness also have expanded the palette and possibilities for composition beyond anything seen before.

This is why the world is now awash with pristine sounding, beautifully produced and engineered recordings with outstanding fidelity, musicality and compositional balance. Listen to any radio station and you will hear how computers have unleashed musicians from the encumberences and limitations of traditional instruments and recording techniques and allowed them to soar to the new heights of their art. The proof is in the airwaves - Computers have brought us into a musical golden age that leaves the efforts of musicians, engineers and producers from the 50's through to the '80's sounding quaint.

[The Tasmanian]

I agree 100% Steve - and above all I find it incredibly liberating as a musician.
Now my ideas are limited by my mind - not my budget, or timeframes.
I can think of a melody/chords, try it on any instrument, add more instruments/change them etc etc.
Years ago I would have had to write the idea down, then save/beg some money, or get a recording or publishing deal to afford it, then find a player, book a studio, bla bla - 3 months later MAYBE Ive tried out the idea.
Now I can try it right NOW - at no cost, as I have the technology. That does not mean I wont replace the parts with real players, but having these tools to get the ideas down means we can get them down fast - AND be prolific.
And the sounds/software are getting better at an alarming rate.

Plus, then as a engineer/mixer/producer - my sonic pallet has expanded unbelievably. I can record to 2inch tape, dump it to 96k, add these amazing sounds ITB, dial up amazing ITB plugs, mix out through analog and valves back to DSD etc -
Really exiting time to be in this game - and because there is FA money in it - its driving us all back to creativity and originality - THIS is the biggest plus of all !!!

[The Tasmanian]

Chris O - That is real bad news mate. Hope everything turns out well - the best of luck.

[Drumstruck]

Computers and DAW's are so powerful and the software is so evolved ......

Sorry about the edit Steve - just saving some bits (that's a joke, son - ala Foghorn Leghorn). A good post but I'm only partially with you..... 5am rant below ..... (what am I doing up at 5am? working on a computer !!!!)

So imo - Computers with embedded O/S that we don't have to f*** with have provided us with some great tools - that use of digital technology is inspired.

As soon as you get a box with an O/S and apps that you need to f*** around with for hours / days / years - configuring / rebuilding / rebooting / uninstalling / damn incompatibilities / upgrading / rebooting / reconfiguring - you get the picture ..... unless one actually likes doing that it is a total pain in the ass.

I've been in the IT industry for nearly 30 years - worked on every system known to 0s and 1s (and still do) - the last thing I want to de when making music is be an IT tech - when I press the record button I want it to record, not give me some stupid message like "I can't find where I put my CPU 3 m/s ago"......

The main thing I agree with is the price point - finally it is affordable to make acceptable recordings.

[The Tasmanian]

Not so on a Mac - you just turn em on and start making music.
If you stay with, and milk an OS - and dont get fooled into fancy upgrades of software and OS, then you can get years of use with no problems, and no time wasted.
I ran multiple machines in 4 studios for well over a decade 7 days a week and never had 1 down day in all that time because I stayed with stable config's that worked.
Upgrades were done at sensible times when all the problems had been sorted by the guinea pigs.
Same way of working in the film studios - they cant afford down time due to constantly upgrading stuff.
Find an OS and software that works and is solid, and you should be able to get years out of it.

[Drumstruck]

I hear what you say Chris - I'm running a Mac currently (highest spec MBP w/ PT9) and agree it is much more stable and reliable than the windoh!s boxes (and I've tried them all back to when OS2 was a lad), but still the occasional "CPU cannot blah blah" occurs, memory leaks have not been fixed, regular reboots required etc.

And I agree 100% about stability of platform / tested and staged upgrades etc / attaining years of use from that stability. I had a stable Vista 32 bit / PT8 machine for some years - but that's only because I know how to configure the damn things - I often wonder how a non-PC literate person would get by..... or are they an extinct creature now?

The proliferation of appliances (blackboxes with embedded O/S) in the IT world is accelerating - probably thanks to the growth of Linux flavours - and I welcome this turnkey technology as long as "we" can still access the innards to perform tweaks. Building / configuring / troubleshooting on computers I can do without - there are too many drums and cymbals to hit in that precious time

[ChrisW]

Like I said, I'm in both camps.
I'm totally in love with owning a high quality studio consisting of very affordable computer and software.
However, I can't agree at all with the notion that current music puts the music of the 50's thru 80's to shame.
I haven't heard much recorded at home that can rival some of Trevor Horn's productions, or Ken Scott.
On drums alone we are generally missing the pure, beautifully recorded instrument (Horn's 'Slave To The Rhythm' and Scott's 'Spectrum' are prime examples). Most contemporary drum tracks are heavy on trashy rooms and monster FX, which in my view can paste over any lack of skill in recording the actual instrument.

[The Tasmanian]

I'm firmly rooted in both camps too-
I love nothing more than getting a kit in a lovely sounding room, and tuning it, micing it, tweaking mic positions, and sinking or swimming based on my skills - rather than quickly recording a kit and sound replacing stuff.
I love real instruments. real rooms, mic's, and blending these elements together in a mix.
But I also love creating/discovering on Ipads / hardware and software synths etc.

But as much as I dig technology Beat Detective would have to be the WORST software invention of all time - I will never use it under any circumstance.
No interest in destroying players expressions.

[ChrisW]

I hate autotune more than beat detective. I got used to being 'corrected' when the Fairlight came out.
I bought Ableton Live last Christmas and have been loving learning how to use it. Quite unintuitive for someone with a traditional music training and years of Pro-Tools and Logic brainwashing.
I love it though. It's opened up many new ways of thinking and creating. So easy to use too....... once you get your head around the basic concept.
Back to my first post....
I must say I've ended up really disappointed with softsynths. They don't sound bad, and a lot of producers I like are using them exclusively. I just don't feel inspired by a GUI and a mouse.

[Kurt]

Tried hooking up a controller keyboard and playing them instead of trying to program the parts?

I must say I've ended up really disappointed with softsynths. They don't sound bad, and a lot of producers I like are using them exclusively. I just don't feel inspired by a GUI and a mouse.

[The Tasmanian]

I run them through amps and mic them - even recording a room mic
Especially like to drive them through vinatge mic preamps with inductor EQ's
but then I do that with hardware synths too
Anything goes