Acoustic guitar question

[HA_DA_JA]

I have had a Maton TE-1 MAple version, Cole CLark FL2, Taylor 815 & a Tacoma DR-20 over the years.
I do a lot of rhythm playing with a .60-70mm pick, I use 12-54 guage strings and I just cant find the guitar that suits my style of playing.
I found that when strumming hard the sound seems to breakup, THe Taylor was exceptional for softer stuff and fingerpicking, the Maton was lovely and bright for lively light strumming, but when playing live and the vibe really gets going you tend to play harder and thats when problems start.
Is there a magical combination of wood and guitar size that eliviates this problem or does it all come down to bad technique.
I have heard that Mahogany guitars stay the same volume whether they are hit hard are just strummed normal (that is no breaking up of the sound). But Mahogany does not sound like a sweet tone strummed aginst the other forementioned guitars. Most of these guitars were a spruce/rosewood blend.
Can anyone help?
Cheers
Dale

[Chinagraf]

Hi, my main guitar is rosewood, a really old Martin D28. It's a bit boomy when you are strumming, but the best way I've found to get around it is to have a range of picks of varying thickness, but also different materials - ie the shiny plastic ones sound brighter and have more of an attack to them while the dull dunlop nylon ones have less attack but more bottom. It is great to have different guitars for different parts, but if you cant afford it a wide range of picks helps get a wide range of tones. Also varing where exactly you strum the strings changes things a lot too - near the bridge, near the neck etc.
My main pick I use for strumming parts is .45mm. It sounds very different to the heavier ones, and I even fond .53mm's to be a bit heavy for rythm parts with my particular guitar. That's only .08 of a mm, but the difference is really noticable.
On another note (heh) did strumming parts always 'break up' on every guitar you've had? Sometimes it's a symptom of a poorly setup guitar which causes strings to rattle etc.

[Martin]

i think it's just the nature of acoustic guitars, they can only put out a certain amount of energy before the strings start rattling and hitting the frets etc

kinda like compression, pushing it harder doesn't necessarily make it sound better. adjusting how to play everything else through the range of the guitar is probably the way to go

playing live i've been able to crank up the gain on my acoustic channel and play the quieter parts (not always easy!) so that you've got some 'headroom' left on the guitar for when you wanna rock out with your...

[Luke Garfield]

Sounds like you want a "loud" guitar. I understand - that was my head space when buying my acoustic a few months back.

I ended up with a taylor DN4.

Dreadnoughts are the way to go. Heavier strings too.

Playing is definitely the factor - but having a suitable guitar helps. Owning a race car doesn't make you a race car driver but on the flipside being a talented driver and not having a decent vehicle etc..

I also think having the right kind of electronics onboard. The Fishman matrix/blend combination seems to be a real winner. That's what I'm looking at (when I can get off my proverbial to do it). All that I've heard of under-bridge set ups always leaves me wanting more.

Chinagraph and Martin have some good points.

Sounds like you've owned some nice instruments. Hope you find something that suits.

[Chris H]

There are many variables that come in to play here and from the info you have given, it's hard to pinpoint an answer. The setup of the guitar and gage of string is the most critical factor with handling the harder strumming of live playing. I would suggest having a guitar set up for live, one that sounds good with its pickup and handles the heavy strumming and another for finger style and playing un amplified. When trying to get one guitar to cover all situations, you get the compromise you are finding. I would also get a good luthier to set up the guitar with the "heavier" action for the harder strumming because a it can then be set up to get the best , most comfortable action. Many times i have seen poor work in this area on acoustic guitars. Get to know the luthiers in your area as most have their specialty. I have one in Melb who works on my strat and would pick another for my acoustic guitars if i didn't do the work myself.
Also worth saying here is the quality of the acoustic sound of a guitar you are mainly going to use as a stage guitar doesn't have to be as good as your pedigree sounding guitar. The best acoustic guitars get the balance between structural strength and resonance just right, on the edge, so to speak and sound like they are ready to burst into life even when strummed lightly.

[bennyboy]

i have never realy liked the maton and the taylor sound

martins always seam to play and sound good no matter what model or wood

a while back a friend of mine had a similar problem he bought a garrison that sounded like what you were talking about dont know if there still around they made low to mid price guitars
i cant remember the model number but this guitar sounded great mabye give one ago if you can find them

[Kris]

A friend of mine has a Larravee that records very well. They're pricey but sound nice.

[Chris H]

i have never realy liked the maton and the taylor sound

martins always seam to play and sound good no matter what model or wood

a while back a friend of mine had a similar problem he bought a garrison that sounded like what you were talking about dont know if there still around they made low to mid price guitars
i cant remember the model number but this guitar sounded great mabey give one ago if you can find them

I have played more than a few Martins that were duds, and i remember the many outstanding ones (i keep notes for when they come up for resale). As for the Matons, i worked for them in the mid 70's shaping necks fitting them to the body etc basically all the work except building the body and rough machining the necks. My work was done when the guitar was ready for the spray job and setup. Two of us were on that job and we would do 2 batches of 9 guitars each, in a week of the CW80's. If we were working on the Southern Star or Messiah models then it was one batch a week and a fair bit more work before and after those got to our bench. The timber used for the top models was premium quality air dried and they were regarded as the real maton guitars. The CW 80 etc were the budget model yet so many judge the Maton by the CW80 and later budget models. The timber was cured by a microwave process for electrics and neck timbers of the cheaper models.
I would keep track of individual guitars during there construction, taking notes etc and would play many guitars from each batch to sus out ways to improve guitars. Of coarse with each batch of the cheaper, most would be OK, 1 or 2 duds and 1 or 2 above average. None were outstanding. With the "real" guitars, most were great, not every batch had a dud, maybe every second batch, and usualy there were 1 or 2 outstanding guitars in each batch.
I think I'm starting to sound like the grumpy old fart but i think a lot of young players need to get educated about the guitars they play,sheesh do some research and listen to many guitars before you buy one. As for acoustic guitars with pickups, half the time the old Yamaha ply jobs sound better than a lot of what is around today. Also i can't understand the sound of Cole Clark guitars, Every one i have played lacks in the mids......they sound like they are built to replicate the smiley EQ curve.

I agree with you about the Taylors, most being made for acoustic / pickup sound.
Over the years of guitar playing i ended up with the 3 main acoustics i have now. My main is a 70's Guild jumbo with rosewood back and sides and a top so thin it's hard to believe, but the guitar is built as it should be, to the individual qualities of the spruce top. This select bit of timber is translucent, you can really see into it because it is quarter sawn, and has been hand polished to a translucent gloss BEFORE the spray job. Being 1/4 sawn it has the highest strength to weight ratio hence the thin top but the bracing is not lighter.
The next is a Tama TG 180, dropped and split on the showroom floor of Australis instruments, and purchased for a song by yours truly, then repaired. I took a punt that it would be a good one as it was the demo model sent from Japan to attract attention and was hand built with Bavarian Spruce, grown in a valley, Brazilian Rosewood back and sides, Honduras Mahogany neck and African Ebony fret-board and bridge. It is a truly outstanding guitar.
Next is a 1955 Maton Premier F hole. I dont know why this guitar is so good and it took me a few years to find out haw good it is. Maybe i was prejudiced as it cast $5 and came with a broken neck. The top is carved spruce, the neck Queensland Mahogany, the sides, Honduras Mahogany and the back a pressed Mahogany ply. Because it was built for volume as a "plectrum' guitar as they were referred to and designed for use in acoustic jazz ensembles the string tension is high so a low action is possible and it takes hard strumming very well. The main use for me has evolved around its unique sound open tuned right down to "C"

Dale, with the hard strumming issue, a guitar with a higher string tension is helpful as it will take the pounding, can be set up low at the nut, if the neck relief is right and the fret-board and frets well worked. The neck relief should not be flat but a slight "S"bend: ie the truss rod set to allow a small gap in the middle when the guitar is fretted at the 1st and 12lth frets. After the 12th fret the neck should fall away slightly. When building a new acoustic we used to shave the bare fret-board away a bit after the 12th fret because of how the top will flex with the tension of strings over time. Most guitars today except for pedigree models dont have this proper neck relief so the action is harder to fine tune to the players style and string gauge used.
You know it astounds me that most so called quality guitars don't even have the attention to detail to put a simple arris on the nut and saddle to make good contact with the neck and bridge timber and hence maximum transmission of tone and sustain..........

My 2c worth for the day but i thought i'd pass on a bit the knowledge.

[HA_DA_JA]

Hey Chris great info there.
Did you ever work on the 50th anniversary models?
And does that mean that the MEssiah models did get extra time spent on them to get it right? Whatever "right" means.
I have played an mnay EA80 and a couple of them sounded really nice. I guess you just have to keep playing until you find the right ones. WHat models /brand names have a higher string tension to go and check out?
Cheers
Dale

[Ausrock]

Chris,

I remember when I was first ready to buy my first Maton, the CW80s were their lower end model but hell, it was all I could afford back then :-)...... a CW80/12 Serial #275 4/69.......actually, I lie, I have a mid/late 50s Alver arch top purchased from my guitar teacher around '63 or 64.......both these guitars are in their cases behind me as I type this. My '95 CW80/6 is a much better quality guitar although the old 12 is a joy to play. My only gripe with Maton is that at some point they discontinued the narrow neck on their 12 strings.

In the late 70s I looked at a number of Martins but couldn't really see what the fuss was all about and I haven't played one since. As for the CC shitboxes..........please don't get me started.

ChrisO

[Chris H]

Hey Chris great info there.
Did you ever work on the 50th anniversary models?
And does that mean that the MEssiah models did get extra time spent on them to get it right? Whatever "right" means.
I have played an mnay EA80 and a couple of them sounded really nice. I guess you just have to keep playing until you find the right ones. WHat models /brand names have a higher string tension to go and check out?
Cheers
Dale

I was on to my next career as a youth worker by the time of the 50th anniversary models.
With the Messiah's Southern Stars and one off custom jobs, they got extra time of course. The tops were individually tuned re thickness and bracing, more care was taken with the neck joint allowing for a tighter fit:ie no shims were used. All timber had to be aged and below a certain moisture content etc, etc.
We did a custom job for the person who wrote Hey Joe, a large body cut away model. It got a lot of attention and sounded great. If it didn't sound good they would have made another one. By the way the pickups on the electrics were crap in those days and to me the only standout electrics were the Jazz models and the JB4 Bass models

With string tension i don't have info on models and brands except for the jazz plectrum guitars being an obvious one. The factors determining string tension are: string gauge, scale length, angle of the head stock, angle of neck joint, and the distance the strings enter the bridge behind the saddle.
One place to start when buying an acoustic is to draw a line of sight down the top edge of the fret- board and continue the line to where it meets the vertical edge of the bridge. It should be aprox 1/8 of an inch above the sound board. Much less than that and you will not be able to get a low action no matter what the neck relief etc. Slightly less and the string tension will be less. A bit more than an 1/8th and you will have higher string tension, also attributed to the increase in the saddle height, so with these things combined you don't need much to have a noticeable affect on string tension.
The first thing i do when checking out an acoustic is to check out the set of the neck angle in this way.........not hard to figure out why when armed with this info!

[heathen]

I agree 100% about checking the neck. Being able to achieve good action without fret buzz is a major issue with any guitar. Playability is everything for me.

Also I've found in my time some guitars just play well and most don't without some tweaking. I've played cheapo guits and expensive ones and sometimes a properly set up cheap one with a straight neck will just sound better than an expensive one which is'nt set up right.

I bought a 50 dollar onyx electric guit once and it was one of the easiest to play and sounded f'ing huge. Dunno why.

[harry]

Great info here,

Also important when buying a guitar with a fixed bridge and no adjustable saddles - check the intonation!!

I have a $2500 godin amplified nylon here with an amazing l.r baggs pickup system sounds great through a P.A BUT - the intonation is so badly out - i have calculated that the bridge has been glued into place a whopping 4-5mm further than what is should be! WTF!!! on a guitar that price

I have built a couple guitars and owned over 20 - i know a few things but i have learned so much from the threads in this forum - great knowledge here.

Chris H - you're comments about the 12th fret and why the fretboard should fall away are vital! Took me 10 years to figure that this is why guitars with seemingly straight necks cant get low action. Take note of this people.

A thing to remember when buying Guitars in general is - if the action is buzzy - don't trust the salesman in saying that it just needs a set up just find another instrument.

comparing lots of guitars un amplified in a quiet room is also interesting - it makes picking out an instrument so much easier - the better ones just leap out at you.

[Chris H]

Great info here,

Also important when buying a guitar with a fixed bridge and no adjustable saddles - check the intonation!!

I have a $2500 godin amplified nylon here with an amazing l.r baggs pickup system sounds great through a P.A BUT - the intonation is so badly out - i have calculated that the bridge has been glued into place a whopping 4-5mm further than what is should be! WTF!!! on a guitar that price

I have built a couple guitars and owned over 20 - i know a few things but i have learned so much from the threads in this forum - great knowledge here.

Chris H - you're comments about the 12th fret and why the fretboard should fall away are vital! Took me 10 years to figure that this is why guitars with seemingly straight necks cant get low action. Take note of this people.

A thing to remember when buying Guitars in general is - if the action is buzzy - don't trust the salesman in saying that it just needs a set up just find another instrument.

comparing lots of guitars un amplified in a quiet room is also interesting - it makes picking out an instrument so much easier - the better ones just leap out at you.

* 4 to 5 mm.....shikes!!! that would be impossible to tune. Have you had it fixed? Also might be worth getting a 2nd opinion incase something else is going on. The glue can be softened with heat and carefully worked off by inserting a spatula between the top and bridge, starting at one corner......a job best left to an experienced repairer.
Some of the cheaper Tama models had a problem with the original fret cuts and nut placement being out a fraction. I have replaced fret boards on two and they came out very nicely after the repair. One of the most important issues in over-viewing a guitar is correct diagnosis of a problem. I have seen many people try and fix their guitars by repairing symptoms of the real problem.

* Re the fret buzz and playability of a new guitar, a good acoustic should come into the shop with whats called a factory setting. ie; frets leveled and polished etc, but high at the nut and saddle. The truss rod tension won't necessarily be right also because when a guitar is shipped the string tension should be wound right off and the truss rod backed off. Strings are wound up , re tuned and truss rod tensioned when it arrives at the distributor or the retailer. Of course there are variations to what should happen, but the guitars factory action should be such that you can check out the sound quality and not the playability.
Playability is about having the guitar set up for your individual style and the gauge of strings you use. Intonation, playability, neck relief etc will shift with different gauge strings so the idea is to get the guitar set up by someone YOU trust after you purchase it. When bargaining over a discount with the retailer use this as a bit of leverage as you wont be using them to set it up, unless they really know what they are doing, they are good at it , and i can tell you i have seen some sh^#@* work done. One criminal nearly wrecked my Hofner and left it permanently marked, and a Maton employee did the unforgivable to my Guild when replacing the neck binding............Crikey I HATE DICKHEADS WHO STUFF UP A CRAFTSMAN'S WORK.......THERE YOU ARE...... I HAVE SAID IT .......VENT .....VENT.....still life is worth living. His almost wasn't though. You know WHAT THE DICKHEAD DID THOUGH??????? Some men should not be allowed near a guitar for the same reason some should not be allowed near a woman. This absolutely gorgeously built guitar had ebony pins as neck markers, glued into holes drilled through the edge binding and into the ebony board. I had carefully removed the broken laminated,(white with 2 black strips) binding leaving the pins intact, and thinking he would do a better job than me , gave the rest of the job to him. It came back to me with the pins filed off , a non laminated binding and small SOLDERING IRON melted indentations, painted black as the markers................ I had learnt to fight at boarding school and another employee had to stand between us as i was gunna nail him on the spot..........got one punch through....... It might have been the 70's but it wasn't all peace and love!!!!!

[Simon B]

I don't know how to answer your questions but maybe speak to gerard gilet, he is a luthier that makes absolutely stunning guitars in Sydney and he knows ALOT about woods and how a guitar reacts to certain things and he might be able to make a guitar for you that caters for all your concerns

[wez]

I had learnt to fight at boarding school and another employee had to stand between us as i was gunna nail him on the spot..........got one punch through....... It might have been the 70's but it wasn't all peace and love!!!!!

dude, i'm taking you with me next time i buy a car.

or a guitar even, now that i think about it.