hey - i'm an amateur, and i'm ok?

[mfdu]

So Rick - no-one else seems to have taken you up on your comments in AT.60. is amateur a dirty word?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur[/url] says (in short) "An amateur is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science, without formal training or pay."
sure i get paid. but i am no longer part of the GST time-sink. sure, i did some formal study. a year at RMIT. so is amateur the right concept?
is the word 'hobby' something that raises less ire?

I have tried over the past few years to call myself a hobbyist. my studio? a self-funding hobby. my day-job? a source of long-service leave and superannuation.

each time the 'H' word starts coming out of my mouth around "real studio people" (ie. anyone who's opinion i respect. or at least anyone who's opinion i don't reject as stupid) i feel dirty.

last years "will record for whiskey" slogan was a prime example of that - i felt the only way i could reflect the Steve Albini 'sliding scale' was to belittle myself as a whiskey drinking slob.

i want to learn to embrace my inner hobbyist. i want to feel ok about only doing a couple of dozen acts a year. i want to feel ok that my space is 90% loungeroom, 10% studio.

the hardest thing is definately figuring out how to make it clear to potential clients. or even if i need to. if they enjoy my space, then what is the problem?

[TimS]

So Rick - no-one else seems to have taken you up on your comments in AT.60. is amateur a dirty word?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur says (in short) "An amateur is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science, without formal training or pay."
sure i get paid. but i am no longer part of the GST time-sink. sure, i did some formal study. a year at RMIT. so is amateur the right concept?
is the word 'hobby' something that raises less ire?

I have tried over the past few years to call myself a hobbyist. my studio? a self-funding hobby. my day-job? a source of long-service leave and superannuation.

each time the 'H' word starts coming out of my mouth around "real studio people" (ie. anyone who's opinion i respect. or at least anyone who's opinion i don't reject as stupid) i feel dirty.

last years "will record for whiskey" slogan was a prime example of that - i felt the only way i could reflect the Steve Albini 'sliding scale' was to belittle myself as a whiskey drinking slob.

i want to learn to embrace my inner hobbyist. i want to feel ok about only doing a couple of dozen acts a year. i want to feel ok that my space is 90% loungeroom, 10% studio.

the hardest thing is definately figuring out how to make it clear to potential clients. or even if i need to. if they enjoy my space, then what is the problem?

Here here Chris.
I agree - I'm pretty much in the same boat, although I have almost finsihed my Pro Tools Certification through UTS in Sydney. I know it doesnt make me a 'qualified audio engineer', but it does give me formal quals in PT, which studios apparently look for as well - apparently!

I had my first pro gig as PT engineer when I recorded Pennywise at Luna Park for an upcoming DVD release the other week. Granted, what I had to do was pretty easy, it did give me exposure as a 'professional'. I got paid too - does that make me more professional?? ;)
Now, I feel a more confident in my ability to provide what is required of me at a professional level - however, IMHO, I am still an amateur/hobbyist working towards being more professional.
Only exposure and the chance to hone your skills and show others that you can do what you're asked to do will give you more chance of becoming a 'professional' - some are just there already..
Anyway, it was an interesting point..
Tim..

[jkhuri44]

gday chris,

a few points...for yourself, anyone who's reading and ur potential clients:

* James Taylor recorded an album on a 02r, in a holiday house.... what happened out of that, commercial success. Gypsy Kings latest album...recorded at home (for vibe)...Tool's lead singer..apparently recorded some vocals at home....im sure other ppl can supplement this list, this is all i know off the top of my head.

*Myself..and a few other ppl i know....cant sing in studios....so, a comfy home...is...well....an awesome environment.

*If you think YOU'RE an amateur....then God help u when u delve into my skull!! :) I've been recording on the same preamp for 4 yrs, dont know the sound of anything else, only ever used 5 different mics for that time.... but still love doing what i do, and more importantly STILL can record music which people can listen to and more importantly enjoy. So, if you're happy, and your clients are happy, there's no issue ? :P

*if any of your clients have a problem with your "amateur" recording enterprise...they can "suck it"...bite the bullet and go record elsewhere...because as i see it....what u offer is damn good, and at the prices u do what u do at, are great, and take shitloads of the pressure of performing OFF the artist.

*if you feel dirty using the amateur word around "people" you respect, then they probably have too much self love my friend :) As i see it, what you are saying is honest, and is not pretending that you're something you're not.

My 2c.

[rick]

i did not want to attack anybody by using the word amateur in that article , but i know some people feel it means somehow , "not as good"
i am trying to shake that feeling out and redefine how we talk about ourselves..
at least locally

but i think the " perceived shame" of being an amateur is probably brought about by advertising making everybody want and think like a pro... ie the good/bad common dominator thoughts

if your are an amateur /hobbyist cabinet maker in all reality your work will often exceed the quality of a "professional" - because the home guys have the time and vision to do it "just right" without commercial constraints
i hear pro cabinet makers guys say all the time , "i wish i just did this as a hobby then i would be really able to make some great quality stuff that i could be proud of "
it is a common idea that some of the greatest furniture ever made has been made by hobbyists in the 20 century and ironically most of them are professional white collar workers just relaxing after a hard working week in a pile of wood shavings

if you are an amateur fisherman , your actually considered a "good guy" and the pros are "evil" ... go figure ..?

in germany a mate of mine asked his friends where he could go for a fish ,they told him technical collage for three years - "fishing for fun ! crazy australians do they fix their own cars for fun as well ..? "

and of course if you are an amateur golfer - well your just not a good as tiger woods are you ..?
which is why you have to buy the same clubs , shirt ,shoes and glasses as him just to make yourself feel closer to the "pro"
but think about it - have you ever met anybody except a "pro golfer " that told you he was a "pro golfer" ....umm maybe if he was a dickhead but its not the norm is it ..?

AT magazine just wont make the jump to believing the mags primary readers are amateur hobbyists, so i am slowly but surely introducing the term "recording enthusist' into the public domain ( even if i dont know how to spell it )

who knows in 5 years time everybody may feel good about telling people exactly who they are and what they do , and the sales weasels can start actually selling to their real market
and instead of us all ( myself included) having to stumble through a series of job descriptions every time somebody asks what we do - to make sure our fragile little egos are pumped enough to get through another day
we can then simple and proudly " tell it like it is"


so to sum that article up i was trying to rally a common feeling, inspire some loners into making new friends , and just plain old report in on my thoughts for the month

who knows why i do it but it gets done all the same - no harm meant i assure you
but tell us what you think or better still tell AT

[chris p]

Working as I do in a big ego profession (commercial law), I've thought a bit about what makes me a professional. Its certainly not the suit. I work with technical people, research scientists and advertising creatives, and they much prefer me in casual clothes. Nor is it the multi-million dollar view down the harbour to Manly Head - been there, done that, now work from home, having given up spending 16 hours a week commuting.

What makes me a professional is a combination of mindset and expertise. In law, part of that expertise means formal qualification, but after a few years that becomes less important compared to what you have achieved - more simply, are you good at what you do? The mindset involves a number of factors - valuing my time and effort and charging accordingly, making sure I deliver value in my services to clients, making sure what I deliver to them is what they were after when they came to me.

My recording business is real bottom of the food chain stuff: schools, churches, first time demo albums, audition albums. But in my mind that doesn't make me an amateur, its just the niche that I'm happy in. I get paid (a little) for my time and skills, but I seek to deliver to the client what they want (and manage their expectations as to what is possible for their budget) and give value for money.

A big city law firm told my client to ignore my advice recently - apparently they called me "a suburban hick lawyer". Client set up a meeting between us - end result, they apologised, admitted they were wrong and had to tear up their invoice for their work. So I'm tellin' you, folks, its not the 128 channel SSL 600 m2 recording studio that makes you a professional - it the mindset you bring to what you do.

[astrovic]

Rick, as a prime stereotype of the "recording enthusiast" I have a tonne I want to say (vent?) on this topic), but unforunately I don't have time right now to add my two cents to this topic. But I would just like to thankyou sincerely for raising this topic in AT and expand on it in your last post. Brilliant stuff.

mfdu - thanks for starting the discussion - someone had to! I now live on your side of town, BTW (Geelong) so I may have to pop in for a cuppa when the opportunity arises.

Chrisp - given I'm the only other lawyer on here (I think), your post was very insightful. I know what you mean about the surburban lawyer thing 0 sometimes I feel like a suburban lawyer with his office in the suburb of Melbourne :) I'm very curious as to how you manage to manage your time between law and music, something which is failing me more every day.

Cheers guys.

[Kris]

Only difference between Amateur and Professional is money. If you get paid then you're "professional". You can be crap and get paid.... but you still get paid so you're doing something right.

[Ausrock]

Aaaahhhhh.........................seeing the posts here gives one a nice fuzzy warm feeling, especially since our "studio" doesn't bring in outside work, although realistically, I should probably push that in the future.

I remember in my early teens (in the earlier '60s) recording on a mate's parent's R2R and for some obscure reason, that "act" stuck with me. Fast forward to about 10 years ago and my son (and band) were tracking in a reasonably decent studio on the Central Coast and one day I walked in there and I realised that was what I should have been doing during all the years I had wasted, so gradually, I started reading, "learning", and acquiring gear...........currently, the only thing being recorded is myself and a few friends, the son (with current band) are today laying down drum tracks at a studio in Neutral Bay...probably with the intent of bring those tracks back to their other rehearsal studio to do the rest of the tracking, mixing, etc.............maybe some time they'll do the uncool thing and do some tracking here with this old fart riding the desk.

Sorry for the waffle but Rick's article and Chris's initial post raised one thing that continually leaves me somewhat bemused........the ridiculous number of people who think that because they can play an instrument or sing or whatever, automatically presume that they are immediately capable of successfully producing and recording music........take away their PT with it's plugins, editing capabilities, etc., and give them a some mics, a console and a 16 trk R2R and see how they get on ;-).

Maybe we should catagorise things as "Professionals", "Enthusiasts", "Amateurs" and "Wannabes".

ChrisO

[mfdu]

being a huge (HUGE) fan of TapeOp, i embrace the term 'enthusiast' with none of the reservations i hold about 'hobbyist'.
amateur . . . well, i get paid. be it money, or laphroig whiskey. but i certainly don't consider myself a professional.
from my perspective (call it a cop out, or sour grapes) but relying on recording to pay the mortgage would diminish the care and love i feel for what i do.

with St. Albini as my hero, i believe in the ethics of providing recording services to the community on a sliding scale. it's what i'm able to do, BECAUSE i have a day-job and i don't owe a cent on my equipment.

i consider myself lucky.

i can make artistic stances like "i don't like bright mics" , "bands that rehearse together, record together" and "phantom power sucks arse" (he he)
if a client doesn't like the stance i clearly pronounce, then they're welcome to go to someone else.

take away my protools, fine. i really only use it as a tape deck with drop-ins and stuff. again, as an artistic stance. take away my plugins. no problem. i mix outboard, because i like the feel of it.

remember that the worst cars on the road are probably owned by motor mechanics. know what i mean? does an audio professional sometimes feel they're just doing the same old/same old? shame - every session i do is a chance to try new, exciting techniques.

hey astro - i've passed the pultec boards over to barney - we're catching up lots. you should definately hook up. hey - we could start a club?

rick - good on you! it's raised questions that i think we all ask ourselves. the reason i embrace TapeOp so wholly and always find some invaluable learning in it is because it excites me, and doesn't make me feel any lesser for being an [enthusiast / hobbyist / amateur].
AT could certainly be more embracing of the enthusiast market, without becoming focussed on entry-level gear. i WANT to know how good the Chandler gear is. but i'd also love to see a shoot-out on chinese ribbon mics.

dear AT posse - my name is chris. i am a recording enthusiast, and i'm proud of it. i consistently get more out of TapeOp than i do from your (excellent) publication. it's because you sometimes make me feel insufficient and that my gear isn't good enough, whereas TapeOp always makes me excited to try a new technique with the gear i already have.

[Ausrock]

BTW...........I probably should have made it clear that my opinions/comments are not directed towards any of the RurtleTock regulars.

BTW #2...........I record OTB either to Fostex 16 trk D series or to 1" 16 trk R2R and if the great Gods of Technology are smiling down, I'll shortly have the two synched.

[jmedigital]

Semi-professional? You get paid to work on occasion but you are not employed full time. Kind of like contracting.

[mfdu]

semi-coherent?

[TimS]

I typed up a long reply about TapeOp, pro/amateur, etc, etc in reply to everyones posts, but my PC crapped out and I had to reboot - lost it all.
At the end of the day, for me, I dont really care - I enjoy being a musician who enjoys recording, no matter what technology I have available to me - analog or digital!!
My outboard is slowly growing so I'm moving to OTB more and more.. Although ITB is still very much a good option for me as well.
Main thing is, I love it regardless :-)
Happy days all.
TimS.

[rick]

see there is half a dozen guys right here right now that would join there local noisemakers club if there was one .

THAT was really the point of the article !

[astrovic]

see there is half a dozen guys right here right now that would join there local noisemakers club if there was one .

THAT was really the point of the article !

so you wasted a good AT article on us idiots?

I'm flattered!

[rick]

hey i am not wasting articles just trying to fatten out the much talked about but seldom seen book

the publisher have just named it

"famous last words"

all we have to to is figure out the publishing deal , do the work - set up the promo and then sell it .
and then it seems on the incoming profits i can retire an buy a real marlin boat !

a 35 foot bertrum /carribean will cost me $470k
i have $425 saved and the book is on the way
so as they say .... i am getting there !

err.. in case you are wondering book royalties are like record royalties but even lower
so i might have to have a " new york times best seller" on my hands before i am actually allowed to retire :(

[rob]

now i feel all confused! You see deep down in my mind ( and you don't want to go there alone! ) I consider myself a hobbyist. I essence I spend most of my time doing what i did all weekend as a kid...pulling electronic stuff apart, wondering how it all works and putting it back together again. Dabbling away alone in my workshop, i often connect with how it all was in the beginning.
Often the missus comes home from her job at 4pm and says "so what did you do today". So often i reply " nothing". This gets her very worried about the mortgage
I guess i feel like a professional when i do my GST each month

Rob :)

[mfdu]

hey rob - sounds like you've found the right balance, huh?

[Barney Loveland]

I like the idea that audio is related to being a muso therefore goes hand in hand and knowing more about the process can only help in the final product. And MFDU and I have started our own little club hanging out and shooting the breeze and talking shop, helps that we literally live over the road but took turtlerock forum to find each other.

[heathen]

"It's not how big it is fellas it's how you use it that counts", I'm sure we've all heard this before. It's more true now than ever with good equipment at reasonable prices.

Getting the job done is another thing, I dunno how many half finished projects I've fixed for people because the other guy they used did'nt know what he was doing. The worst ones are the guys who have just enough knowledge to really screw up a mix.

I know I don't own a pro studio, though whenever I do any audio stuff I always do as a professional job as possible and conduct myself in a professional manner, mostly.

Though being an audio topic everything in this thread is at the very least "subjective". :)

I know Rick supports the "hobbyistenthusiestsemiprofessionalists", I think thats half the reason this forum exists. Not being a suck or anything but I've learned a lot from from reading what Rick and other respected pros have to say on audio, usually learn what not to do to get the best results.

Thus making me a little more pro in the process.

I did'nt read the article I stopped reading AT a while back, not enough sexy pictures of Shirley Manson from Garbage in there.

[mfdu]

heathen - that's a damn good point about professional vs. professionalism.

i always endeavor to approach a session / client with utmost professionalism, even though it's not my professional field.

it's important to earn and maintain respect.

chris.mfdu

[TimS]

hey rob - sounds like you've found the right balance, huh?

But he didnt mention his fishing either - now THEN Rob would have the perfect balance!!
;-)

[TimS]

.......And MFDU and I have started our own little club hanging out and shooting the breeze and talking shop, helps that we literally live over the road but took turtlerock forum to find each other.

Same with Tunetown and myself - we actually live 2 mins walk from each other - it been great to shoot the breeze about lots of stuff - audio, mixing, guitars, amps - you name it.. we talk about it.... and drink Boags premium to boot as well..
Pete give me bad GAS tho - I'd love his rack (BAE, lots of API goodness & Purple) at my place <drool>
Well, we met at one of nIC's listening days!! How ironic!
Tim..

[tunetown]

.......And MFDU and I have started our own little club hanging out and shooting the breeze and talking shop, helps that we literally live over the road but took turtlerock forum to find each other.

Same with Tunetown and myself - we actually live 2 mins walk from each other - it been great to shoot the breeze about lots of stuff - audio, mixing, guitars, amps - you name it.. we talk about it.... and drink Boags premium to boot as well..
Pete give me bad GAS tho - I'd love his rack (BAE, lots of API goodness & Purple) at my place <drool>
Well, we met at one of nIC's listening days!! How ironic!
Tim..

We've even named our little club T.A.L.C. M.O.R.E. C.R.A.P. Which is an acronym for;
" Technicians And Luthiers Combined, Musicians Of Retired Establishments Christian Rockers Athiest Producers"..........It's a long story......
We just call it a T.M.C now. which could well be the first Acronym of an Acronym.
We're just a whole bunch of ex live Musos, Producers and Luthiers who have a great deal in common and love to sit around the Barby with a few beers and chew the fat. We even have the odd Jam in my studio when enough beers have gone down. Good fun and it seems to be growing.
Membership is free. Let me know if anyone would like to attend the next one. Although I may have to move it to a bigger location.

Cheers

Peter

[mfdu]

that's one for the Acrynomicon!!!!

[Matthew Dawson]

What a great discussion. Well done to all! It would seem that Rick has tapped into something that many here can relate to.

I am excited by the thought of one day having a space where I can play and record music again - it's been a long time for me. I also work in Local Govt for "long service leave and superannuation" and am near Geelong too.

I have often thought of the 'club' idea. I can't see why it wouldn't work. As Rick says, there are heaps of clubs for other pursuits - why not recording? I used to play some classical music and played percussion in a concert band, which was effectively a club. We had expensive instruments (incl timpani), we did tours, we had (purple!) uniforms ... the whole bit.

There are lots of models for how it could work ... I often wonder if you could set up a music club like a sporting club. Appoint a coach, select a 'team', etc, etc...

Anyway, it seems that this topic is some kind of 'common ground' for many here - it brings people together, and that's great!

Keep it up.

Cheers,

Matthew

[mfdu]

hey mathew - see this mornings thread on "REAM"

chris

[Martin]

"fishing for fun ! crazy australians do they fix their own cars for fun as well ..? "

That's awesome... for any 'professionals' out there feeling like they are burning the candle at both ends i would thoroughly recommend either (or both) of the above as stress relief

recording is an awesome hobby, trying to turn the hobby into a career is a books worth in itself but the grass is green on both sides of that fence if you can balance the rest of your life well

[Damien]

we did have a noise boy club....well a few of us would catch up every now and then in caulfield melb...

anyone want to meet, drink, chat, tell stories.....

[mfdu]

awww damien. it's a shame.
i moved from caulfield two years ago. and when i was there, i was far too ashamed of my set-up and my amatuer status to actually make it to a drink!
but now i embaress my inner hobbyist.
sorry, that was embrace. sigh.
oh well.