Analogue console from DAW

[Son of Sam]

Hey everyone

I am trying to figure out how I might hook up a analogue mixing desk to my daw so that I can do my mixes on it rather than in the box.

I did have a look on the net for some info but it is very hard to find.

The only way I can think of doing this is by daisey chaining about 4 audio interfaces (for example 4 fireface 800's) for a total of 32 chanels, the problem being that you can only daisey chain 3 together anyway.

Is there another way to do it? what about adat?
is there a way around buying multiple interfaces?

Any expertese would be very much appreciated, I'm so sick of staring at a monitor!

[Chinagraf]

The only one converter solution I've personally used is a Fairlight CC1 with an SX48 interface, which has 48 outs.
Other than that you could use some ADA lightpipe converters hanging off the RME's but you have sample rate limitations.

[Kris]

Put a MADI card in your computer (RME or SSL).... then go MADI into an SSL alpha link (x2) Should give you 100 odd outputs.... I think.

[Chris H]

There are many options. One to look at is the RME Digiface. Gives you 24 in / out capability. Choose from any nummber of a/d converters.
http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/digifa.htm
Another is the Lynx

http://www.lynxstudio.com/

MOTU offer plenty of options
Stepping up the quality a bit are the Apogee options.

[Son of Sam]

OK, but I'm just not sure how these translate into physical outputs to go into the analogue desk, or am I missing something here?

(probably a lot)

[Chris H]

The stand alone converters eg firewire MOTU 896 has 8 line/mic inputs and 8 line outs,TRS so the analog outs go to corresponding inputs of your desk. Most firewire options hae a practical limit of 24 ch but have the advantage of higher sample rates on all ins and outs.
On the other hand the options using ADAT lightpipe have more track counts but when you go to a higher sample rate, you lose a number of in/outs.eg 16 @ 44.1 but 8 @ 96.
Also the light pipe options have a break out box eg the RME Digiface or a PCI type card as the conection to the computer but they need an a to d converter with lightpipe in out to give you the chanels in and out.


Real rough explanation, i've given but its prolly time you went to a good store or look up a studio to have a look at a few options and demistify the whole process.

[heathen]

My preference would be 2 apogee da 16x with firewire, for tracking 1 apogee ad 16x with firewire would probably do.

Or the lynx units.

You'll probably need multiple interfaces no matter which way you go about it, as long as they all lock up nicely there wont be a problem.

[smash]

Mac -> Apogee Symphony Card -> 2 x Apogee DA-16x = 32 Channels of D/A
With a Mac Pro you can run up to 3 Symphony Cards, for up to 96 Channels of i/o at 192K.

You can run 3 x Apogee Ensembles off a Firewire 400 bus, provided that your HDD's are on a different bus or are internal. You can sync all off a Big Ben too, a great "bang for the buck" solution.

The other option is running PT HD.

I like the Apogee option because I know the system latency is exceptionally low, PT HD has a lower latency still, but obviously there are some negatives associated there.

The other systems I don't know enough about their real world performance to specifically recommend.

[smash]

I'm not a huge fan of the optical solutions, believe it or not ADAT light pipe can suffer from jitter when lower quality cables are used, due to internal reflections off the cut glass.

[bennyboy]

a real cheap solution is 1 motu 424 card and 2 motu 24 i/o on the second hand market will set you back 2k

but i saw you had adat is your desk an analog or digital desk

if its digital swap the 24io for 2 2408

[chris p]

'm not a huge fan of the optical solutions, believe it or not ADAT light pipe can suffer from jitter when lower quality cables are used, due to internal reflections off the cut glass.

We've had this sort of comment before, haven't we? My understanding of the previous discussion is that the jitter is a problem only if you are running off the time signal encoded within the ADAT stream. Its a non-event, and ADAT is fine (subject to the sampling rate limitations), if the converter is externally clocked, eg through word clock.

[heathen]

I get jitter when I drink too much coffee.

[smash]

I get jitter when I drink too much coffee.

I get Jitter from not enough !!!

[NYMo]

Hi there Son of Sam,

I see you live about 20 min from me !

All depends on your budget....


Cheap way... run 2 x digi oo1 systems locked via mtc, each on a seperate mac, each with a be!@#$%^& ada 8000 from lightpipe.....that will give you 32 outs.

OR run stems out using up to only 16 outputs on a single computer.

Medium way....Lynx aurora 16 and card..this will give you 16 analog outs AND 16 digital outs...run the digital aes/ebu outs into digi 888/24's in standalone mode.....32 outputs.

More expensive... Run PT HD into 2 Lynx Aurora 16's 32 analog outs/32 digital outs (this is what i use)

Hope that helps.

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

www.myspace.com/redberryrecords

[anj]

We've had this sort of comment before, haven't we? My understanding of the previous discussion is that the jitter is a problem only if you are running off the time signal encoded within the ADAT stream. Its a non-event, and ADAT is fine (subject to the sampling rate limitations), if the converter is externally clocked, eg through word clock.[/quote]

On the nuendo forum they say quite the opposite, running from the internal clock is better than an external clock ( in my case rme digi card running rme converters) unless you need to clock other digital equipment eg. digital console etc.
Does anyone actually know the best way to clock your converters, internal or external?

I better go to bed now, 4 in the bloody morning.

[heathen]

The best way to clock converters is with a great wordclock generator be it internal or external. Some say using T connectors is better if clocking multiple devices, but I've never had a problem daisy chaining all my 4 main pieces of digital gear with the Apogee Rosetta 200 as master.

Using the adat stream for clocking (which you can do) is not really the best way to go about things.

[Chris H]

I'm using the Appogee Ensemble, and its a great option. You can use the Maestro app bundled with the ensemble and get practicaly zero latency, this with the analogue console works fine. My older option was the MOTU 896 before the DSP version, and now i hook it up to the Ensemble for 16 in and out.
One option i hwould like to look into is using an Alesis HD recorder for tracking and conversion to the analogue desk. I have done several live recordings with these and its no drama getting the data into the box. Anyone have some of the finer details of this option sussed, eg using the HD's converters to get from the DAW to an analogue desk?

[Kris]

That's a cool idea... do you mean optical out of the pc into an Alesis HD24, then analogue out of the HD24 to the desk? If so, good idea. Those machines are very cheap for what they do and even more so for the idea you have.

[Chris H]

I'm thinking of using them for the tracking stage. then getting the data into the DAW for editing & automation, recallability etc and using the Alesis HD as the converters to play back through to the analogue console for mixing,summing. So the question is can the Alesis HD be used as the d to a from the computer to the console?

[Andyc]

I was mixing like this using the Fostex D24 machines as the D to A convertor, and have only recently upgraded to some lynx convertors. It worked realy well and sounded good. I have used the Alesis machins and they also sound good so should work.

I was running 2 Fireface 800 and using the 4 optical out to give me 32 outs into the Fostex 24 tracks and then onto my desk.

[mfdu]

aaah the HD24 type unit. that's where i'm going, too.

13thbeach was talking about getting one of the new 4848's for live tracking.

c.mfdu

[heathen]

I'm seriously thinking of buying a 10 channel Studer desk or something similar for summing (when I have some spare moolah), I reckon even 10 superb analog channels would be plenty for mixing subgroups, some great deals to be had on consoles at the moment.

[Son of Sam]

Thanks to everyone for you're idea's!

The HD24 idea is kind of exactly what I was looking for.

I was thinking that 56 play back channels had to be translatable in to physical outputs via some sort of other device other than hooking more sound cards together, but I know absolutely nothing about adat, so it looks like time to learn.

Thanks to all!