Second second assistant to the teaboy's hairstylist.

[Darren]

Hi All,

I want to learn as much about recording and mixing as I can. I studied sound at Uni, read and practiced as much as possible and have recorded and released a small amount of my own music and a few local bands. I'd like to think that with the right influence and a stack of persistence that I've got what it takes to do well.

Everything I've read and a couple of people I've asked, including Phil McKellar and a couple of Aussie producers I've e-mailed who have been pretty darn helpful, reckon you have to start at the bottom as an assistant.

I'd like to ask you pro guys about what you look for in your average dogsbody.

Thing is, I don't want to pester anyone or not pay my dues. I get the impression that eveyone is working hard and they need to run a business and that obviously takes precedence over taking on (or even talking to) every wannabe that knocks on the control room door.

My question is:

How can I make myself more eligible as an assistant and what is the most painless way I could approach a studio (or studio owner) that will waste the least amount of your time yet show you what I have to offer?

Thanks for your time.

[Adam Dempsey]

Darren, you're well on the way with what sounds like a great attitude.
I think that it's getting to know someone in the industry, hanging out, talking music, being willing to watch and learn and speak up when asked and you'll get a chance to show 'em some of your work.
Go for volunteer work in public radio or TV (Ch31 in Melb) or even a theatre company as a grounding too.
I was lucky to meet, via an electronics lecturer, Murray Tregonning when he was at Ch9 Melbourne which was great, being in the control room for Hey Hey, helping with the analogue carts (he'd just started trying the digicarts). Anyway, that came simply from asking, and lead to some casual work at Crawfords as a boom swinger, and so on (amidst a crappy kitchen hand job and the like).
Just keep knocking on doors, being sensitive to peoples' time, keep being honest and keep asking questions.
Others may have more specific tips to add...

[Damien]

give me a call. were in hallam (melbourne).

come down and have a look and some fun. we can also help if you want to do live shows as well as studio.

this is an open invitation to ANYONE wanting to work in a live or recording situation.

cheers,
damien
0412 354 254

[mfdu]

although i had good responses from folks when i was approching them with the same question as you, i found that noone really wants a 32 year old tape monkey.

my age was working against me. i think folks thought i wouldn't work for nuts.

my solution was to start running as a studio myself. low low down in the studio food chain, but at least i'm doing stuff and learning and being challenged.

shame there weren't boards like this a couple of years ago. it was so hard to feel a part of a community "back in the day"

damien, i would've leapt at your offer any day of the week. if darren doesn't take you up on it, i will.

chris.

[Mark Bassett]

Hey Darren,

Sounds like we have a similar evolution - I too studied audio at a 'school' I won't mention here. The only advice I can give is from my own experiences. While at ### studying audio I landed a job at the now defunct Milkbar Studios. Management gave me a free run of rooms after hours, unpaid, to basically learn how it all works. I remember reading through the Euphonix manual at 2am trying to get my head around the board. So I wasn't actually employed per se. They were interested in hiring some more assistants, but few can just walk straight into a commercial session with well known bands and producers and be an asset not a hindrance. Anyway, I just spent all my free time there, being around, hanging out on a few sessions with unknown engineers and shitty bands that didn't care if I was in the room. I just tried to be a useful person, who was always there ready to go, looking enthusiastic. I was totally aware of how rare the opportunity was and I stuck to it. Eventually they threw me in on a session and I ended up working with the biggest producers in the land on some very memorable sessions.

In the midst of the second Milkbar auction I was thinking about taking Rick O'Neil's offer to leave Milkbar and come and work with him. So I had Milkbar management and Rick O'Neil pretending not to fight over me. After my head deflated, I chose Turtlerock, and a week later strangers were walking out of Milkbar with outboard gear in their arms.

The way I see it is there's two things you need to get hired and one of these things can be learnt if you're not fully up to speed, and without the other I can't see you making it.

Number One attribute: Audio Skills
It's not hard to learn how a studio works, how to patch gear in and you eventually learn how engineers/producers work, how many sugars they like in their cap. The point is these skills can be learned - by almost anyone who's interested.

Number Two Attribute: Attitude
I'll write that again A T T I T U D E in case you missed it cause it's THE most important thing you can have and by the sounds of it Darren, you've got it. I mean I'm the second person who's said that, sometimes you can just tell someone's got the right vibe about them. You can't easily learn not to be a wanker if you know what I mean.

I've witnessed studio managers throw resumes in the bin after laughing at the "High Distinction Average at ### Audio School" the hopeful applicant quoted on his CV.

I've seen potential studio assistants come in who just graduated from ### audio school having done work experience at ###### studios who think they know it all, perhaps they do, but I haven't seen them since.

They all had a "I know everything attitude" an unless you're Nigel Godrich - and even if you are, having a pretentious vibe about you won't help. There's a big difference between the "can't wait to get a chance to show you what I can do" attitude and the "I deserve this job - I know it all" attitude.

I knew guys who were far far more knowledgeable than me, really knew their stuff but no one wanted to work with them. I had big name producers requesting me by name to be in the room with them, and I knew the least out of anyone there - but my cup was empty.

Every now and then the producer/engineer would give out pearls of wisdom and I lapped them up cause I was genuinely interested. There was of course one well-known producer who didn't want me in the room at all, ever. I didn't care, didn't let it get to me, I got paid to read manuals was the way I looked at that week in the studio.

Your question was how to get in the studio in the first place. One of my lecturers (who later became a close friend) knew the manager at Milkbar. Milkbar had rang the audio school and asked him to send down a few students for interviews. I walked in to the manager's office and he was on two phones at once, juggling session dates. He put down one phone and said, "who are you?" I said, "I'm here for the interview". He said, "Did Luke send you? I said "Yes".

He said "you're hired, see you 9am tomorrow morning".

[Peter Knight]

Well apparently the studio owner here wants any assistants on my personal jobs PAID - well he said that a few months ago and I have managed to skirt the issue pretty well... it's hard to justify paying somebody who has no practical experience. But if they can help move the session along I would have no problem pricing them into the equation.

Having said that, we are looking for assistants (rofl rofl) but anybody who can get their heads around the basics of how not to blow stuff up will be able to do pretty much whatever they want around here, including doing their own jobs at a pretty decent studio rate... so anyone in Perth (or moving to Perth) who's interested can drop me a line.

[wez]

1) don't write, call
2) don't call, show up
3) keep showing up

studio people are busy. don't expect them to chase you up. be persistent but not annoying.

to second mark's post... i have a standard question i ask - "what is the most important skill an audio engineer should have?"

hardly anyone answers it right. it's not recording skills, it's not musical ability, it's not even coffee-making technique dammit.... it's people skills. you can teach a monkey to mic a drum kit, but it's how you handle a room full of different personalities, egos and insecurities whilst simultaneously pulling a cans mix and dealing with a recalcitrant computer while the clock's ticking and the pressure's building, and somehow still manage to remember what you're doing, ie capturing the magic etc and making a record - at all times maintaining an air of calm, composed authority - that makes an engineer. i think you can pick a potentially great engineer the first time you talk to them, well before you watch them work.

and i should point out - whilst i loved recording, the main reason i never went on to be a great recording engineer is somewhere in the last paragraph. some people are great at managing a room full of people, others are better focusing on one or two.

[mfdu]

aaah people skills.

some folks seem to think getting into a studio is a good way to hide away from people . . .

i have heard such horror stories. engineers pledging undying love for the client on their third session. grumpy. uncooperative. inarticulate. nervous. familiar?

i'd like to think thats one thing i learnt from my previous career before i even started in this audio world - may i call it customer service?

if i have a fault, it is that i make my clients too comfortable. they feel comfortable enough to create. dammit. doesn't that just get in the way?

chris.

[davemc]

As most people here with studios I get the endless calls, mail and email.
We have passed; we are doing; we are about to do; a audio course do you have paid work. Or can I sit in on your sessions.

I have tried a few guys/girls over the years...
Number one thing for me is they are someone you want around.
I have had some idiots come in and hurt the session.
This reflects on me having them around.

I want them to pick it up quickly and be able to make me and them money. I do not want them hang around months for free. Although if they are basically sitting in a chair watching.. Well they are not earning me anything.

A lot as Mark has said were really cocky and did not know much. 1-2 Years at a school does not mean you know everything. Runnning cubase at home does not mean it will take you 5 minutes to learn Pro Tools. Normally these people do not come back as they think audio is fulltime 9-5 paying job for some strange reason as well.

The other type I get in who are nice are a little scared or did not do the after hours work so they could do things in a session.

I had a couple who I thought could do it, they were smart picked things up quick. Then they got out of audio.. Maybe too smart.

When I started doing IT stuff a long long time ago. I was taught hands on (I never did a IT course) I always think about what he said.
I will show you something once.. I prefer you to take notes and review them.
I will show it to you again. I hope you have your notes on-hand.
I then hope your review your notes before the third time.
I will help you with the third and fourth times you are doing it yourself from now on...
I may help you with the fourth of fifth time if I am not super busy.
When you get up to sixth time and you still have no clue.. I will just do it myself and think twice wasting time showing you things.

I know its a little hard. Although in IT and audio as most of you know. You need to learn things quick. You need to be fast doing things under pressure under a clock.

As Mark said if your getting a chance in a place download info about all there gear.
Know what microphones they have.Look up different applications.
Look at there gear.. Learn it. A lot of things can be done after hours.
You have to be eager and you really have to love audio.
Its not a super high paying job. Its a hobby that feeds you.

Yes I am still looking for someone who wants to come in as a permanant freelancer.. Bring in there own work and get a good price on days.

[Henry]

In my experience there are only 2 ways to get into the industry.

Either the Studio Manager likes you enough to give you a start

Or, you buy some cheap good quality gear and start recording all your mates at cost. If you do it the second way, your almost guaranteed to get picked up by a Studio somewhere along the line, but the secret is you have be recording all the time. If you immerse yourself in it, you will learn a recording system that generally works well and ppl will hear the results and ppl will pay you money.

If no one gives you a job then you have to teach yourself until someone takes notice.

[JulienG]

When I started doing IT stuff a long long time ago. I was taught hands on (I never did a IT course) I always think about what he said.
I will show you something once.. I prefer you to take notes and review them.
I will show it to you again. I hope you have your notes on-hand.
I then hope your review your notes before the third time.
I will help you with the third and fourth times you are doing it yourself from now on...
I may help you with the fourth of fifth time if I am not super busy.
When you get up to sixth time and you still have no clue.. I will just do it myself and think twice wasting time showing you things.

Don't know I agree with you about notes. One of the reasons I'm currently employed is that I hold a huge amount of, basically, related trivia in my head, and that something like 30% of the time when I'm asked a question I know the answer, another 30% I can give a refrence where the answer will be (on the order of look at the mailing list archives for *blah* for July and it's in there), and the final 30% I can research an answer in less then half an hour (usually < 5 mins). The end result being that I can work less then most people and accomplish more.

That's pretty much how I feel about an assistant, it doesn't bother me if you don't know the answer as long as you know where to look, and stay out of my way when your not needed.

[davemc]

JulienG,
No I agree with you totally. Personally I never take notes.
I would rather them learn it by remembering it.
Although not everyone can do it this way.
So yeah writing down some notes to help is cool.
Although again if you always have to use the notes.
Then really has it sunk in.

As said before the basics. Micing, mic pres, gain control, basic compression and eq, editing, drop ins etc etc
These are things you should learn quickly and are pretty easy.

Now working clients for the best preformance.
Using a different snare/guitar mic this week to offset what you do not want from there sound.
Being able to edit to make a preformance.
Making a crap amp or drum kit sound better.
Mixing to fix things.
well this takes time and learning to do.

I have someone sitting in on sessions with me at the moment. He is doing xxx school. He expects players to be at a level of his fav CD bands.
Its a shock how much work you have to do to peoples sounds for him.

[mfdu]

davemc

i read in inpress an add for "audio masterclass"

pay to get 150 hours in studio X.

it freaked me out. here's me running my own show to try to build myself up so i am worth being paid, and now there's yet another "pay per pass" up and running.

not dissing the host studios in any way - they need to cover overheads and keep the studio booked. like all of us. but it made me wonder - where is the incentive for a chap like me to learn the skills the hard way? (not just the "mic goes here" but also the client handling, the after hours book work, the advertising decisions)
all i need do is take out a loan to pay someone to sit beside me.

huh?

what is the point of me trying so hard when kids can just come in and blow a wad of daddys cash?

hmph. please discuss.

chris.

[Kris]

This is an interesting read.

I too did ### college after I left school. I'd been mixing in pubs for a few years before that and of course, church is a great place to learn these days. I have 5 young guys (like 14, 15 years old) under me at church and I'm teaching them how to use our PM1D console. Anyway...

The thing about client relations is totally on the money. Half of my day in the edit suite is spent tending to my clients. Advertising agency people are very..... demanding, and not always nice. They also sometimes haven't got a clue so you have to be very diplomatic and make sure that they walk away feeling good about the job, and unfortunately, themselves. My job is not just to edit pictures but to play babysitter for junior creatives and producers, ego stroker to bloated directors and nice guy to the producers worried about the budget. On top of this, I have to make sure my bosses are happy that their reputation and the company's name is being looked after. As well as all that, I have to edit something pretty good or else they'll go somewhere else next time.

So in negotiating a pay rise recently my strongest point why I should get one had nothing to do with my skill as an editor and everything to do with my client skills. I have a following of clients that come to me for jobs. That's what's worth money, that's what is employable. The skill factor doesn't always come into it 'cos you should already have it.

[davemc]

Ahh audio schools.. well you get what you put into it out of it, I suppose.
So you have to look at individuals more then say there grades.
I do think they have a very un-realistic look at how much work there is out there in studios. I also always wonder how much they actually show in practical terms instead of just reading books.

As everyone else will vouch for, there are a lot more home guys who think they no longer need studios.
I look at it I can buy some tools and a book on my car, although it does not make me a mechanic.
There is a lot more that goes into being a engineer then to just chuck up mics and push record. I have been showing the young guy I have had in of late, how to pull drum sounds without just opening up sound replacer.

I have been looking at doing some courses myself becuase of this.
Some 4 session crash home recording courses.
I know people who have spent $20-$30k on there home system. Gone to Gearslutz or whatever and brought the latest hyped product.
Although have no clue about mic placement, gain staging etc etc.

So where do you go Chris or others.
Personally I would not setup my own place.(opps done that :) )
I would just have a small setup at home where I can do some editing and overdubs.
I would make some deals with some studios for freelance work.
Most studios have down days you can get for cheap.
So bring in your work somewhere else who has paid silly money for good gear and has nice rooms.
I would network, get a show reel together, get some CD work together.
When your getting enough work that paying freelance time starts cutting into profit. Maybe then look at setting up yourself.

[mfdu]

davemc

i went to rmit four (five?) years ago. $660 for the year. crappy mackie console, some outboard and general blah. exactly what you want when learning. make do, experiment. cant do something the easy way? well, there's gotta be at least four other ways to do it . . .

it seems to me that audio schools with all the latest greatest are doing the students a dis-service.

i do main vocals in the bedroom cupboard. i use the couch to seperate drum kit from amps. want some bizarre lofi reverb? re-amp it into the hallway. change the reverb by hanging up a doona.
move that mic, change it over, try a different spot for the amp - experiment. going to audio school can make it seem like there is one way to do things.

yes, its a home studio. i make do. and i do good. and all without a cent of debt.

i initially set up at home to get experience and build my showreel so i could move up to a 'proper' studio. but now, i think i'm hooked. i LIKE running a session from home. the wife loves it. the cat loves it. my clients love it.

maybe i am now doing what i want? i would say yes, if i didn't get so damn tired of being alone.

it isn't the studio that makes me want to move into a studio - it's the mentor relationship of yore. i wanna learn under a master. call me tape monkey, tell to make a coffee but teach me oh great one.

thats all i want. the one thing that doesn't seem to exist any more.

chris.

[Kris]

Ahhh..... you seek Yoda.

[mfdu]

yoda yes.

punky brewster, no.


well, maybe. i can always be convinced.

[davemc]

I know where your coming from Chris. I am self taught. Still surf the net, read books, play with the gear and talk to anyone I can to spoonge ideas from.
If you want to come down to a session one day. PM or email me off line.

Although honestly I want to get 2 freelancers into my place. When your running a one man shop it gets hard to do the networking and have a life as well oustide the studio.

The thing I always find wierd with the schools. A lot who teach passed the same course one or two years prior. Textbook teaching really does not do it for me. You need to do the practical work.

[Mark Bassett]

'Yoda' hired me under the following conditions:

1) If I smell he can sack me on the spot.

2) I had to stop doing magic tricks.

3) I can't tell anyone that I went to ### nor relate their name to Turtlerock's in any way.

[mfdu]

congratulations mark - you're the first person to mention body odour!!!!!

i remember an old issue of audio technology "if you dont know what your studio smells like, it's time to do something about it"

thankfully the missus is big into aromatherapy. saves my bacon.

chris.

(why doesn't the "frequent contributor" image show? i feel like i must be missing out on something)

[Darren]

Thanks a stack guys.

This is incredibly useful stuff.

Chris (mfdu): I totally understand where you're coming from with the mentor thing.

You always read in magazines how all these famous producers / mixers / engineers got mentored by the "old grey dog" studio owner who taught them the ropes with patience and genuine interest. Its a romantic thought and those times are probably long gone (maybe they never even happened in Australia) but it would be brilliant to be taken under someones wing and given the opportunity to develop and add to the business rather than simply draw from it.

From the general discussion in this thread I've garnered now that its not really possible, in the current climate, to expect someone to invest their time and possibly risk their income by taking on some newbie so I think I'm gonna do this:

1. Setup my DAW really well so I can at least track a band.

2. *Gulp* learn Alsihad. I know Logic really well but that doesn't appear to mean a great deal in the face of the monolithic domination of Digidesign stuff.

3. Get my best work together in a reel.

4. Start knocking on doors.

5. Pull together a resume, even if its just for the studio manager to put their coffee on while I grovel.

6. Start generating some paying clients of my own. (I reckon this point could be the clincher)

7. Never forget how much a really want to do this and get ready to sacrifice.

Once again cheers for the input.

D.

[mfdu]

there you go darren. you're on the money now. sad but true.

no. not sad. scratch that comment. yes i'd love to be second second ass to the teaboy, but i love running my own show too.

if you get to a point where the gigs pay for the gear, and you enjoy what you're doing and you don't get lost in the dark hole of running a business (warning warning - tax time is where the fun stops) then you're a step ahead of the footsore "please sir may i have . . ." folks.

however i would still willingly don the leather mask and chain myself to the 2" 24track if the offer came. but i'm not killing time till that offer comes - i'm too damn busy!

:)
chris.

[Mark Bassett]

That 'romantic' mentor ideal you speak of does exist, I know this cause it happened to me.

I had to unlearn a lot of stuff that was taught to me in a kind of kung fu clear the mind type way. And yes, just as that kid in Karate Kid had to polish his master's whatever (wax on wax off) in an attempt to teach him about zen or chi or just cause the old man couldn't be arsed himself, I remember having my conviction tested on my first day as I pulled splinters out of my fingers that I got from rubbing some oil substance into Rick's hardwood floor trying to get the black marks off. ~ So THIS is the black art

[mfdu]

i'm ready to rub oil into the hard wood of any decent studio's manager.

call me. any time.

no, really.

[did i give it up too easy? playing hard to get just doesn't work!]

[Darren]

No disrespect meant. I definitely believe you Mark.

If there's another Rick O'Neil out there I'm going to find them.

[mfdu]

i could change my name by deed poll. maybe that'd get my own hard wood oiled.

sorry sorry i really need to leave it alone don't i? get my mind out of the gutter.

but gee - on a friday afternoon it gave me a great giggle.

tee hee.

chris.

sorry darren. i forgot this one is all about you. how rude of me.

[mfdu]

by the way - excellent topic. really brought all the opinions out didn't it?

[Darren]

I think I've heard what I needed to hear from this thread and it all made sense pretty much regardless of perspectives.

I'm going to take up any and all offers and advice with gusto.

Just a quick note to Rick and Mark: This forum is awesome. I stumbled across it searching for Mark Rachelle and DW Norton production credits on google. I'm a big fan of Backbeach down in Rye (I recorded there as a teenager back in 96 and have followed their progression ever since). I ended up finding so much more.

This is a valuable resource. Home recordists are rubbing shoulders with seasoned pros and they all share the wealth so to speak. There seems to be proper community spirit 'round here without all the aggro and one-up-man-ship that you get on ProSoundWeb and all the rest.

Top work guys.

[Kris]

I think Mark still frequents this forum. You may be able to PM him if you haven't already.