Vocal Recording Question

[Dave Shore]

Hey Guys, Question please:

After you guys have recorded vocals, and you're making a mix, do you need to play with the vocal volume/fader to keep the vocals even in the mix? Cos I do - heaps.

I use a BOSS BR-900 recording console, I use the 'Compressor Setting', a pop filter, and I use a high quality good Condensor Mic.

But when a performer sings vocals there are loud parts, soft parts, parts with heaps of attack... so the volume of the performance varies wildly. So afterwards I sit there for hours, taking notes of every single peak and trough throughout the vocal take. I then manually adjust the volume while doing the mix to keep it even - literally on a word by word basis.

I was wondering if you guys all go through that painfully long process.

Should I:

A) Be trying to find some better microphone compressor equipment?
B) Be asking the performer to train themselves so that their vocals are all even in volume (or moreso anyway) over a performance?
C) Accept that this is just business as usual for anyone recording vocals?

Thanks!

[TimS]

Dave,
May I suggest getting a copy of Mike Stavrous "Mixing With Your Mind" and have a read.. Its an excellent source of knowledge and will give some great tips and ideas that will help you with your current dilemma ;-)
Check out Chapter 14 - Vocals Too Hot To handle and Chapter 7 - Superstar Lead Vocal Sounds - lots of good advice and tips/ideas..

http://mixingwithyourmind.com/

Check it out..

[walding]

Option B first and foremost.

One thing I do sometimes in this case is get the talent to sing the softer parts and track them at say -12dbs thaen track the louder parts at the same so it evens out.

Good mic technique though is paramount to getting even levels and performances.

[jkhuri44]

Gday Dave,

just a few comments about ur questions.

Usually, if you record a vocalist with compression, a few things happen...

you end up evening out their dynamics in their ears...making them sound "fine"...however, you may tweak the compressor later, only to find that the vocal is dynamically all over the place..

So, one tip would be to record with no compression into the singer's cans, so that they can hear how uneven they are, and perhaps fix the issue of uneven ness in their performance.


As for always changing volume, thats one of the best ways to get a good vocal sound whilst using minimal compression, so get used to it!! :) However, if you're changing volume for a part where the singer "intended" to sing at 1 level, thats a performance issue....if on the other hand, the singing and song are dynamic and the sections get louder and softer, then you have to get used to turning stuff up and down to suit what the instrumental is doing.

As for good gear.....i dont think anyone would say "no dont get better recording gear" thats something that should always be improving, until you cant improve no more!

Just for your information...i moved the fader about 50-70 times for my vocal mixes....to accentuate different things.

I put a prefader compressor on to even out the dynamics, then i do all my volume riding....and stick a post fader compressor on if i feel it needs it, at a very high ratio, and not touching the vocal at all on the threshold, just to grab any crazy peaks, if there are any...after i do all my automation.

All this said however....some compressors do a better job than others to make a vocal stick out with less fader dancing...it just requires time to hear what you like and want....

[jkhuri44]

another thing in relation to point be...

is really knowing the song structure....

if you know a quiet verse is approaching, have your hand on the mic pre gain, and give it a bump up...

and in the gap., before the crazy chorus, have your hand on the gain and bump it back....thats a great way to do what a compressor would be doing, but without the compression....watch for clipping though....:)


this makes your mixing, and also makes the compressor setting you use afterwards, work much better for the whole track...

[Linear]

You just need an AWA compressor. It's like cheating.

And gee, I wouldn't be asking the singer to do anything differently! I reckon the singer has enough on their mind (lyrics, pitch, timing, feeling etc) without asking them to compensate for technical inadequacy in the vocal chain. And I'd never change the gain of the pre during a take - nothing will put a singer (or anyone in the band for that matter) off more than mysteriously having their level change in their cans mid-take. Not to mention a noise pot or switch potentially ruining the pass.

So, option A is where my money is (literally). I used to poo-poo expensive professional gear - until I got some of my own ;-0

Chris

[TimS]

I must say I agree w/ Chris - the singer has enough to worry about already..
My suggestion of Mike Stavrou's book will give Dave the insight and ability to make his own decisions based about the scenario he is in - this allows for a superb learning experience also.. and also teaches the underlying reasons for doing so..

[Thirteen]

Some really important things for recording vocals:

An outboard compressor / limiter before your console. The internal compressor will not protect the converters from clipping, and the internal compressor probably is very poor.

A great monitor mix for the vocalist, so that she can hear herself perfectly, with no latency, and can relax and belt out loud passages without flinching because she gets her head cut off - again, a good O/B compressor.

If your room sounds bad, get one of those Reflexion filters.

Put the pop filter further back so that the vocalist is not right on the mic.

[Chris H]

Well you don't have an AWA compressor ... nor do i ( good one Chris ....we all wish....). Here is a way to get that modern vox sound and get it sitting in the mix as well as the good advice already given.
Use parallel compression. Set up a Comp/limiter on a separate buss or aux and send the vox ch to it post fader. Set the threshold and ratio so it is heavily compressed. Have your original vox level a bit low in the mix then bring up the aux compressed vox underneath till it sits in the mix where you want it. On this aux i use the free SSL desk mic comp plugin if i'm mixing in the box as it adds a nice soft distortion and has a narrower eq range so it adds that breathy sound. ( If i'm on a console then my optro modules with comp lim or my Altec comp limiter do the job well when driven hard. The Altec is a bit thicker )
Here is a trick for Logic users that you can adapt to your DAW.
Some people might think i'm a real hack with this one but it works a treat. I often use Logics distortion plug for this especially on snare as you can dial in the amount of distortion, usually not much, dial in the tone setting, and if you haven't noticed it brick wall limits the output, so adjust the input gain for desired dynamic range or squashing.
Presto!
Experiment with various optoins for parallel comp and it can do wonders for your vox mixing. The vox sits in the mix, sounds immediate and in your face and backs off for the quiet sections.

[Aearth]

Hey Guys, Question please:

After you guys have recorded vocals, and you're making a mix, do you need to play with the vocal volume/fader to keep the vocals even in the mix? Cos I do - heaps.

I use a BOSS BR-900 recording console, I use the 'Compressor Setting', a pop filter, and I use a high quality good Condensor Mic.

But when a performer sings vocals there are loud parts, soft parts, parts with heaps of attack... so the volume of the performance varies wildly. So afterwards I sit there for hours, taking notes of every single peak and trough throughout the vocal take. I then manually adjust the volume while doing the mix to keep it even - literally on a word by word basis.

I was wondering if you guys all go through that painfully long process.

Should I:

A) Be trying to find some better microphone compressor equipment?
B) Be asking the performer to train themselves so that their vocals are all even in volume (or moreso anyway) over a performance?
C) Accept that this is just business as usual for anyone recording vocals?

Thanks!

A) Be trying to find some better microphone compressor equipment? YES
B) Be asking the performer to train themselves so that their vocals are all even in volume (or moreso anyway) over a performance? YES
C) Accept that this is just business as usual for anyone recording vocals? YES

There are some great and experienced singers around that can control their pressure levels when performing but pretty rare. Also like Thirteen said when recording the talent has enough to worry about than trying to work with gear that has very little head room.
A very high end transparent compressor works wonders, but then the vocalist needs to have some control with his dynamics as well. Then there is automation to finally fix-up dynamic levels on every track including vocals, if you don't have that then get a system that does (just can't live without automation)

nIC

[heathen]

Aside from all the good replies everyone here has writting, the most important factor is the delivery and microphone technique, a lot of vocalists who hav'nt recorded often will alot of the time move closer to the mic as they get louder, get them to do the opposite.

Get them to pull back away from the mic during louder passages.

I'm preffering not to use comps while tracking these days, just use them on the vocalists monitor path if they need/want it, but each to thier own.


But yes automation is a given and sounds way better than over compression, yessss in Jamils album there were probably 1000 vocal automation edits including fx automation . :)

[Kurt]

I recently did a demo for a band whose singer can go from a whisper to a scream and back in a few heartbeats. I tried compression on the way in but in the end I just had to get her to do it in two passes, the screaming parts had less gain and I got her to stand another foot back from the mic. Then I still used compression and automation to get it to all sit well in the mix. For me, this stuff is the fun part of recording, if it all went down and didn't need any massaging what would my job be?

[Ryan Collings]

nice thread.

I dont have anything to add.

Except maybe prepare for a side dish of nuts mixed with some genius when reading Stav's book.

Definately an intriguing read...

[jkhuri44]

i find half the time, if your not working with Steve tyler...or Beyonce, or some crazy ass nail it the first take kinda singer, it usually helps doing things in sections...coz after a bad take, you have to tell the performer what to work on....if they're not getting something right, and when singing.... i think its easier to keep in mind 2 things for 20 seconds, instead of 10 things over 3 minutes.


that also gives you the chance to make different settings for any differing sections if needed..

My 2c.

[rick]

if your not automating the hell out of the mix word by word you either have a perfect vocalist or you not doing your job properly
I have had the very best gear to record with my whole adult life and the vocal automation is still the bit that takes the longest

My advice is learn to love the chore and be careful what you learn from a book

[Roy]

Rick's right... but 'Mixing With Your Mind' is a damn good read. I think Stav made some amazing points in that book that really opened my mind up. Loved it!

...I wonder what he's like at parties. Hehehe.

[Martin]

in the spirit of sharing (and opening myself up to some ridicule perhaps?)

I find i rarely need to automate any levels on a vocal when mixing

some light compression on the way in if they are in need, and a little more on the mix to stop it overpowering the rest of your song and away you go

i agree with Chris about not changing the gain, sample rates and bit depth and all that are good enough these days that if the rest of your noise floor is low, you won't lose much in the way of quality by having the signal a little low in the softer bits if it means preventing blow outs when they belt

all singers should be trained a little of mic technique, maybe a good thing to talk about with them long before they get in the front of the mic, check they know about it etc

[jkhuri44]

I find i rarely need to automate any levels on a vocal when mixing

in regards to this, it really is a matter of whats being mixed...


eg... an acoustic guitar + vocal mix, u prob dont have to touch much...

but, for example. a rock tune with a clean verse, and distorted chorus, probably is a differen matter.

i think the best way to tackle this is to press play on a mix, and stop whenever the vocal starts slipping in volume, raise the section, go back ....keep playing, until the song doesnt give you the shits no more and u can hear everything....obviously with a compressor in the chain :)

it is surprising to see when u finish mixing, how in a verse, for example, a certain amount of automation is needed, just to make a voice sound like its the same volume....

not to mention the changes between sections...

[Dave Shore]

Firstly, thanks very much for all the feedback.

But can I please just ask for a clarification - when you refer to 'automating the vocal' are you specifically referring to using software and a mouse to digitally alter the vocals (seeing it visually)? Or does 'automating the vocal' also include manually altering the fader volume (physically pushing the fader up and down on my console while doing a mix)?

[Aearth]

Firstly, thanks very much for all the feedback.

But can I please just ask for a clarification - when you refer to 'automating the vocal' are you specifically referring to using software and a mouse to digitally alter the vocals (seeing it visually)? Or does 'automating the vocal' also include manually altering the fader volume (physically pushing the fader up and down on my console while doing a mix)?

It's so much easier using software and seeing as well as hearing what you are automating, especially if you have a bad memory. Pushing faders and or using the mouse, what ever works for you.

[Kurt]

The BR-900 doesn't have automation so I guess it's fader rides for you! Automation does the same thing, but with more precise control over level and timing. I guess if you're keen you could export the vocal track, edit it in a wav editor and then reload it, but if faders are doing the job for you for now why not stick with it until you decide you need to upgrade (eg. as you start needing to control the levels of more tracks at once)

[Chinagraf]

I prefer using faders over drawing volumes, except for de-essing. It has a more human feel and we don't hear in a linear fashion, so drawing automation usually involves too much volume curve editing for me. On the general automation thing, I think it's what really makes a mix. I would rather hear a sonically challenged but well automated mix than a great mix sonically that is flat and lifeless. Atumoation is the living soul of a mix, unless it's an amazing live band that pretty mauch do it for ya.

[Dave Shore]

Thanks heaps everyone. I'm actively taking your advice!

I just went and bought a PreSonus TubePre Preamp that I can plug my Condensor mic into.

I also bought a PreSonus Comp16 Compressor that plugs into the Preamp. Then I can plug that into my Recording Console.

I'm going to discuss volume control with the vocalist, but, as you say, not to the extent that it affects their mood/timing etc.

I'm getting the Stavrous book later today - and I'm also going to find a Reflexion filter, I didn't even know they existed but they look like they will really help.

ChrisH thanks for the parallel recording idea - makes sense, but I can't do it with my recording console unfortunately - that will have to wait until I finally upgrade to a really proper recording desk.

Hmmm - seems like 'upgrade' is the name of the game in sound engineering ;)

[Martin]

Hmmm - seems like 'upgrade' is the name of the game in sound engineering ;)

Hopefully a close second to getting to know the gear you DO own.. really really well

[13thbeach]

I think Stav made some amazing points in that book that really opened my mind up. Loved it!

...I wonder what he's like at parties. Hehehe.

He'll break out his cards and perform magic tricks. He's actually very good.

[Ryan Collings]

I think Stav made some amazing points in that book that really opened my mind up. Loved it!

...I wonder what he's like at parties. Hehehe.

He'll break out his cards and perform magic tricks. He's actually very good.

Hahahaha, so i have heard xD

[Chinagraf]

I think Stav made some amazing points in that book that really opened my mind up. Loved it!

...I wonder what he's like at parties. Hehehe.

He'll break out his cards and perform magic tricks. He's actually very good.

Whatever you do, just make sure you twist the patchcord plug when you put it in for him. :)

[chris p]

Another angle that I use is to mic the vocalist mid-side. You can then do lots of fancy things, like using the side channels as the sidechain for compressing the mid, or if riding the faders, any decrease in volume in the mid channel can be "compensated" by increasing the side - so the vocal gets fatter and wider rather than louder, compared to more close and intimate when soft.

[Mark Bassett]

if your not automating the hell out of the mix word by word you either have a perfect vocalist or you not doing your job properly

Can I get an Amen!