where should the vocal sit in the mix in this context.

[Gian]

Hi all

I have attended this particular church for about 5 weeks on and off recently, and noticed that all the vocals and in particular the lead vocals always sat quite low in the mix.

They sounded muffled and in fact, when I was trying to sing some of the songs, I could not make out the melody (I was guessing, but was not sure whether my guessed notes were melody or harmony).

So, I decided to ask if they wanted someone to mix for them, coz they had this lady doing the 1) FOH and Fold back sound, 2) words computer, 3) lights, 4) video backdrop (all of these at the same time).

I thought, perhaps she doesnt know or have the time to think about the sound, that is why I offered to help.

Anyway, I pressed all the HPF buttons in on all the channels except bass and kick. There was also acoustic and electric, 2 other vocalists and the main singer. I eq'd the vocals slightly so they were not muddy anymore and I thought I was doing well, but 5 seconds into the start of the service. The lady that was doing everything before says to me:

"the vocalist is too loud" and she reaches over and starts to take over.
Now, I know the vocalist was not too loud.

After an infuriating few minutes where she kept telling me to turn the vocalist down, she says that "they like to have the vocalist level just slightly above the level of the congregation"

So that she stops butting in on my mixing, I just keep the vocalists down so they are unintelligible and she (lady doing video/words/etc) leaves me alone.

I was very disappointed, as the very thing that bugged me about the mix, I was not able to fix, because everytime you could make out the words, she reached over to lower it.

So, my question is: what do people think about having the vocalist sitting so you cannot make out the melody?

Perhaps in this context she right.
I didn't like it though, it goes against the grain for me. But I am teachable.
What do people think?

I did think to myself, perhaps this is why there is only one person doing this job - coz she is a control freak and no one could be bothered to argue with her, and since I am a new comer, I dont feel like it is my position to take over.

[musikwerks]

__

[jkhuri44]

limit the vox, like mad....and turn em down where the lady wants em!

[heathen]

Hmmm seems like a church mixing gig is just like any other live gig with people telling you how it should sound. Only difference I can see is you can't get a bouncer to pick the old lady up and throw her out the door for messing with the mixer.

:)

[Chinagraf]

Every time she says turn it down you could go "sorry, the devil made me do it" or just reply by speaking in tongues...humaddblagaddyblechblech..(spin eyes)

In all seriousness I think one of the concerns is that a lead vocal standing out too far above the congregation has more of a 'performance' vibe. It's not a performance, at least not in this particular place. She is probably coming from the vibe that the hyms should be a group of people in musical prayer, as a group, not a group being led by one lead singer. Does that make sense? I think perhaps if she could have it the way she really wants it, nobody would have a vocal mic and the band would be there to musically support the congregation only. POssibly a little od skool, but like you said, she is older.
Can you mix all the vocal mics to a sub and balance them more so they sound like a group of 3 voices all singing together...could maybe help. You could always give her the "girlfriend fader". Ya know, where you patch up nothing and tell her that's the vocal level fader and she should ride the level cause she knows how to do it so well. I think it was also called the 'Beach Boys' Father Fader".

[musikwerks]

Andy, you haven't been to church in a while have you? lol.... no hymns these days. Think U2, Coldplay etc.

[Chinagraf]

The music may have changed, but has the concept?
Bless you my son.

ps I was actually at a service (R.C)recently for a friend's Dad's funeral. I know some of the other denominations have gone more "Religious Idol" (get it hehe) but the sound sucked. I just kept thinking, "my God, drums would sound awesome in this room"

[musikwerks]

__

[heathen]

Andy, you haven't been to church in a while have you? lol.... no hymns these days. Think U2, Coldplay etc.

I've actually never been to church, not once, I would'nt know what music gets played there. I've done plenty of live gigs though and if the crowd wants to sing along well you just have to them.

[ChrisW]

I don't go to church, but I've watched it on TV and read a lot of chat about worship music, especially in America, especially on a few drum forums.
The sound does seem to be more political than practical.
What mystifies me is putting the drums in a tiny glass room (effectively) so they sound hard and deafen the drummer...... then micing them with 32 mid priced mics, then pump them loudly out of a PA.
I always ask why they didn't just put the drummer somewhere where he/she can be heard acoustically, then reinforce the bass drum and a use a single over head. But no.
I would agree, the main lead vocal (or vocals) should be clear and sit above the music...... but then as i said, I don't go to church.
If it gives you an ulcer, walk away from it.

[NYMo]

Hi there,

My advice, FWIW...don't go to church...there's no Jim Beam there ;-)

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[wez]

standing out the front naked.

now that's my kinda church

[musikwerks]

lol... which is why I qualified it with the bracketed "audio wise"!

[Gian]

Good grief, I just looked at my original post and noticed I had written an essay.

I was going to pre-empt my question with a "please no wise cracks about church", but where would the fun in that.

I like the jim beam comment.

I also agree in part with Andy Evans saying "She is probably coming from the vibe that the hymns should be a group of people in musical prayer, as a group, not a group being led by one lead singer." I am pretty sure that is where she is coming from.

However, my concern was that I, as a congregational person sitting in the audience, could not make out the melody, and I am a musician (jazz) and music teacher...if I cant make it out, how can an untrained person. Perhaps untrained people don't need to make out the melody, it is of no concern to them.

I also liked the comment by Chris Witten "If it gives you an ulcer, walk away from it."

Hmm, maybe I am just getting too intolerant.

[jkhuri44]

gian,

what u said is ri'ght...but in all honesty...when leaving the studio....and entering normal life...u should probably leave ur "nit pickiness" behind...

when i go out...90% of the pubs, clubs, parties i go have bad sound....its really not the place to be whinging about that sorta stuff, (despite the fact that alot of the time there is a live sound person at the event!)

i know in a perfect world people would be sensitive to the dos and donts of mix balance engineering and what not...but thats not the world we live in....so i reckon, just try and put up with it...coz clearly in ur situation, control is more important than a good mix!!

oh, and

Hmm, maybe I am just getting too intolerant.

you just might be, but jesus will forgive you :P


There...thats my joke added to the pile!

[Gian]

gian,

what u said is ri'ght...but in all honesty...when leaving the studio....and entering normal life...u should probably leave ur "nit pickiness" behind...

when i go out...90% of the pubs, clubs, parties i go have bad sound....its really not the place to be whinging about that sorta stuff, (despite the fact that alot of the time there is a live sound person at the event!)

i know in a perfect world people would be sensitive to the dos and donts of mix balance engineering and what not...but thats not the world we live in....so i reckon, just try and put up with it...coz clearly in ur situation, control is more important than a good mix!!

oh, and

Hmm, maybe I am just getting too intolerant.

you just might be, but jesus will forgive you :P


There...thats my joke added to the pile!

Thanks Jamil, sometimes its good to have a sounding board. I appreciate all your comments.

[jkhuri44]

i hope my post wasnt perceived as rude or snobbish ? didnt mean it to come out that way :( if it did

[chris p]

Gian

So been there and absolutely ditto the comments about performance vs communal singing - that's a balance that each congregation needs to set for itself. However, if the lady insists "thats the way its always been done" then there will never be any improvement, will there?

Church people can have difficulty expressing negative emotions constructively, especially when in church - for all you've described, she may have taken your offer to help as being a statement she was doing a bad job, and be all upset about it. There are those who like to feel essential to the running of the place, yes? Even if she's halfway grateful for the help, she's halfway resentful at the loss of control.

Does your church have a music director? Do you and the band discuss sound during rehersal? My experience is that you need to get a broader consensus on the question that just you vs her, and if you can then get the others to speak to her as well, it helps to de-personalise it. Good luck.

[Gian]

i hope my post wasnt perceived as rude or snobbish ? didnt mean it to come out that way :( if it did

Jamil

I did not take any of your comments to be rude (or snobbish). I appreciated them. In fact I feel a bit snobbish.

[13thbeach]

don't go to church...there's no Jim Beam there

Haha! I just laughed out loud!

[Roy]

Well if I thought it was important enough then I'd make a comment to the lady that would pretty much offend her to the point that she would never talk to me again. Then I'd mix it how it should be. But then I can be a bit harsh sometimes.

You'll find church has the worst mixes in the world. I'm not sure why, maybe it's because a little knowledge can be a bad thing.

I once had to listen to an entire sermon with constant feedback. Even the minister asked the guy on the desk (during the sermon) to do something about the feedback. I can't explain how annoying it became. I had to go outside for a while. Even my wife wanted to strangle the guy (which is saying something). But the feedback never stopped!

[Jason]

I always found that the congregation sang up more when the vocals/band in general were louder. I am not talking so loud that you can't hear yourself sing but loud enough so the people in the congregation didn't feel like they were exposed and singing on there own.

And I agree with vocals up so people can follow the melody of the song. How else are they going to learn any of the new ones?

Just because the singers can be heard does not mean they are giving a performance. It has to do with their atitude and actions. They are up there to lead the congregation in worship. How can you lead anything in this world if no one can hear you?

Unwilling to change their ways is something I have come across in quite a few churches. The oldies in these Churches want to do everything they can to cling on to the past.

Thats the end of my churchy rant. Now, where has my beer gone.......

[Jason]

[quote="Roy"]You'll find church has the worst mixes in the world. I'm not sure why, maybe it's because a little knowledge can be a bad thing.

I once had to listen to an entire sermon with constant feedback. Even the minister asked the guy on the desk (during the sermon) to do something about the feedback. I can't explain how annoying it became. I had to go outside for a while. Even my wife wanted to strangle the guy (which is saying something). But the feedback never stopped![/quote]

I would have to agree that sound in alot of churches suck. People with that little bit of knowledge are fine if they are willing to learn more. Its the others that s#%t me to tears.

I am not saying my mixes are the best in the world, far from it. I still have lots to learn and they are always improving.

Not so funny story about feedback. Our wedding was held in the Brisbane City Tabernacle a they said they had a sound guy that did all their stuff. I rock up on the day and this older gentleman was sitting behind the mixing desk getting ready. That was fine untill I noticed he had hearing aids in both ears and he could not hear the feadback coming and going the whole service. I almost walked down to the desk to fix the problem my self. As you can guess our wedding video sounded great. NOT!!!

[Chris H]

Depending on the individual church, it's just another example of a tough gig where one of the most important skills just happens to be people skills. If you go into a situation like the one here without laying a bit of groundwork, then you are making it an even harder task, and this is not exclusive to the church gigs by any means. If you plan to stay around and be an asset to the church you are mixing in, then take the time to gain their confidence and get to know what they like. If you do a great job at pulling a "church" mix that facilitates what their aims are in having the music, ie praise and worship then they will thank you for it.One of the handy skills is to correctly diagnose where the problems and challenges lie in a particular set up, band gear, congregation, and know what you can fix and what you can't.Also you have have to build relationships with the worship band, the worship leader, and pastor etc and get to know what they want in a mix and deal with the competing expectations........funny though, while church should be about positive healthy relationships, this is not always the case and in reality is like anywhere else with power plays and ego's at stake. Well meaning but ill equipped advisers can be a real frustration to the new member of a team who really does know how to pull a musical mix. Most churches that have contemporary music do want a mix where the congregation are a part of the balance with the band mix and lead vox mix, but the worship leader does need to be heard in order to lead .
For a sound guy visiting a church, the whole techo, mix thing can be a real distraction and at the end of the day isn't such a big deal, if it's not obviously bad. One thing for sure is every church will be different

[HA_DA_JA]

Being a "churchie" myself I would agree with an earlier poster. Find the chain of command and chat to the Music Director about the situation, ask them to do something or I always use say something like - " I can see your concern but this is the way that - insert M.D.'s name - wants it done. If it is really upsetting you please go and see if you can reach an agreement with -the M.D.
This way you are free to do your job without having to be accountable to everyone around except you for the people that count.
Cheers

[rick]

i could never hear steve kilbys lyrics live anyway , thats how he wants it i guess ...

[ChrisW]

back when I used to go to church, PA systems were never seen.
No one was sitting behind a mixing desk, and there was never feedback when the preacher/vicar spoke.
Are most churches as big as Hillsong now?
If not I go back to my earlier comment. As a rock drummer I've played in quite large spaces without mics.
Many experienced secular musicians will tell you that the quick route to sound chaos is to litter the stage with open microphones and monitors, and give every musician a separate and detailed monitor feed.
I think there's just too much gear around worship music - just from what I've seen on tv, YouTube and heard discussed on fora.

[TimS]

don't go to church...there's no Jim Beam there

Haha! I just laughed out loud!

the only Beam you see in church these days is an I-Beam!!

[Chris H]

i could never hear steve kilbys lyrics live anyway , thats how he wants it i guess ...

There's the Church ...then ther's the church..........

There's Steve Kilby and there is steve kilby..............


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kST1N66K288

[musikwerks]

Many experienced secular musicians will tell you that the quick route to sound chaos is to litter the stage with open microphones and monitors, and give every musician a separate and detailed monitor feed.

That's most modern churches. Aviom systems and IEM's/wedges. Small stages too, everyone on top of each other.