Two buck shops

[Peter Knight]

I got told yesterday about a local guy who has spent $40,000 on equipment for his new studio and is charging the princely sum of $8 per hour. I'm not sure what to make of this. Do people have no self-respect anymore?

Thoughts?

[Chinagraf]

Depends on a lot of things, like who's tellin the story. Coulda been 80 bucks and they misheard. He could be the son of a rich business man and it was his birthday present, so he doesn't need money. 40K is not really that much for a room. I'm sure many would agree. Check him out, if it's a good place then do some mixes there, tell ya friends.

[chris p]

Hmm, its a while since I did any profiling for the FBI. Let's see -

Suspect is a mature male, over 30 but younger than 50, with a full-time job, probably professional, and (to use Rick's term) a Very Expensive Hobby.

Suspect is or has an accountant who advises charging something but not very much - this allows the capitalexpenditure to be tax depreciated (as distinct from money spent collecting stamps unless you intend to resell them).

Suspect has a passion for music (despite the misfortune of growing up in the70's or 80's). Suspect is trying to learn the trade by hands-on doing (an admirable trait) and so charges garage band rates because he does not yet consider himself a music professional.

Subject sees running a recording studio as a useful thing to do during retirement.

Damn! Why does profiling always sound so much like autobiography?

[wez]

"He who undervalues himself is justly undervalued by others"
- William Hazlitt

[mfdu]

hey wez - RAAF big band? that's gotta be good!!!

i hope i'll be having a few clients actually going to mastering this year, so i'll come down to the depths of atlantis and visit you in the new year if i may?

chris.

[Howard Jones]

"He could be the son of a rich business man and it was his birthday present, so he doesn't need money." I was inflamed when I read this. When I calmed down I thought that maybe you aren't agreeing with this sentiment yourself.

I hope you aren't. This is exactly the sort of dumb-arse thinking that undermines others who do need to make money. This industry is populated by people who think that, because their studio is part-time, a hobby etc etc, it is okay to charge less than what is required to be profitable.

I reckon that even the ones that need to be profitable just open a trade rag, see that others are asking $50 per hour (fill in the figure applicable to your area) and therefore decide that they too will charge $50 per hour. What a pathetic way to cost an operation. If they ever talk to an accountant, I would expect that they would be told to look at their costs, figure out what hourly wage they would like to pay themselves, cost out their depreciation and repairs etc, divide the yearly figure so derived by a (sensible) estimate of the likely billable hours they will pull and, voila, there's your hourly rate.

It ain't rocket science but there's very few doing it.

[Kris]

enter garage band, protools free/LE..... there's a reason people don't charge much and it's not always because they don't want to. Nowadays everyone's an expert 'cos they can walk into the apple store and buy Final Cut Pro or Logic for under $2k. I call them George Jetsons (ie: button pushers) as opposed to an engineer or an editor. How can you compete with the know it all type dudes in the short term?

Example: I recently did an album (two actually) for an old friend. I quoted based on the info given at the time and packed my bags to go and do the gig only to find it was not exactly what was discussed. Stuck in the agreement and not wanting to damage the friendship I bent over and copped it. I basically did the 5 track EP for what he paid (based on my daily rate with equipment) and then gave him the 11 track album for nix. Not my finest moment.

My point being, this guy expected to do two albums in 12 days at a local studio.... record and mix.... and with non professional players. I'm not kidding. If it wasn't for me neither album would have been made....well they would have been started but not finished that's for sure. I worked out that I should have charged $25k for the work I did. And still I got shafted on the credits... but I won't empty my bitter cup here.

So how do you say "no" to a gig when the money will really help? Even when it's not what you should be getting paid (I need to make my wife my agent....she saw it coming) but you just need to keep the dollars coming in? I agree with Howard but at the same time, I live in Sydney and would one day like to own a house and raise a family. Preferably while I'm young enough to actually enjoy it. Every dollar counts and if I can do a gig for $10k even though it should be $25k then chances are I'll do it. Not because I'm a cut-throat wheeling dealing type of guy.... though I do like a good deal... but because it brings me that little bit closer to my goal.

Is that bad?

[Howard Jones]

"Is that bad?"

All depends... if you are working a regular job and recording on the side, then I would suspect that the actual cost of buying the gear and doing the time is being subsidised by the income from your 9-5 job. i.e. the income you see from the recording side isn't income at all - it just looks like it but, when analysed, you wouldn't actually be making money out of it.

If recording is how you make your primary income, the answer is tougher. You have given a perfect example of the difficulties of saying no and how easy it is to get shafted whilst trying to do the right thing. You have made a gross figure on the job but, when you divide that by the hours you put into it, what hourly rate did you make?

[wez]

RAAF Big Band... they're big, and they're a band... not as crazy as the RAAF jazz ensemble, but diggin that swing thing, cool latin too. And i get to talk bass DI's and other fascinating stuff with our Barney L ;-)

seriously, they're a great bunch.

cool chris, come down to the docks and say hi,

merry christmas & super new year to you all,

cheers, wez

[chris p]

There are parallels with the luddites and the industrial revolution. The luddities (the people who went around wrecking weaving machines) were actually highly skilled and relatively well paid artisans. The problem was that the development of the mechanised weaving looms made their skill redundant. Cloth produced on the mechanised loom was not as good as hand loomed artisan cloth, but it was cheaper and could be made in vastly more bulk.

So the artisans had a problem choice - either go for one or more of the shrinking number of mills that kept to the old ways, or take a huge drop in pay, lifestyle and respect and become a machine operator. Some chose instead to protest more violently by wrecking the machines that threatened their self-worth.

History shows that there has always been a small market for the expensive cloth, but that as far as the general public was concerned, price and availabiltiy were more important. The machines won.

I hope that the size of the market for artisan music engineering will not shrink to the same extent - but there are "machine loom" music services out there specifically to service the clients who look for "good enough" rather than "best possible". Technology allows them to deliver on cost and bulk, rather than quality, and many customers have always been willing to make that trade off.

So Howard, I totally agree with the need to factor in all costs and a living wage and set your rates accordingly. But if the $/hr rate that comes out at the end is not realistic in terms of the market, you face some tough decisions - like should I retrain in some other industry?

Sorry for a depressing post so close to Christmas. Hope you all have a great one.

[Howard Jones]

"So Howard, I totally agree with the need to factor in all costs and a living wage and set your rates accordingly. But if the $/hr rate that comes out at the end is not realistic in terms of the market, you face some tough decisions - like should I retrain in some other industry?"

Yes - my point exactly. Either do it as a hobby or charge correctly. But don't undercharge on purpose just for fun. That just stuffs some other studio that is trying to charge properly and it continues to teach the market that they can pay zip for talent and equipment.

I am mindful that the market doesn't pay nor want to pay properly for the excellent services it receives.

[Howard Jones]

I am also mindful that no-one will thank me for pointing this out.

[rick]

howard, i will thank you... even if nobody is listening.

we have had a very good year booking wise, i decided ( my accountant decided) full house - up the rates...
i thought maybe its time to bump up to the extra $30 per hour that will make all the difference to my petrol tank, so we checked what our main competitors current rates are and guess what ...?they have dropped there rates down ( after 5 years) to match mine, they have had a slow year so dropping the rates is their clever marketing plan ..!

this puts turtlerock up on the highest studio rates in the country bracket, plenty of work and i STILL dont make a cracking wage !

i can assure everybody in my experience being cheaper makes things harder- no matter what kind of equipment you have.
when i moved into gibbens street i doubled my rate, not one single client left ....people will pay for what they NEED ... .

people will barter down for the things they WANT and the market will follow


8 bucks and hour or less....?
i hear that story 3 days a week... its just the way it is
it must be the market for the things people WANT..

none of those clients make ANY money at all...
veh veh veh etc etc

the pro studio game is over world wide...
veh veh veh etc

i figure the 8 bucks an hour studios are just the start of the next wave of studio owners...
i hope to be around to service them when they grow up
but who knows

from the top you drop , from the bottom you rise

[Martin]

i think alot of these $8p/h places end up spending alot of their time chasing their tails anyway, don't want to sound eliteist but having done it myself and also recorded AND worked in pro places the difference is enourmous...

i've learnt alot working in a studio that only services the people that pay for it to be there (ie. students!) so haven't had to worry about rates and matching others rates and just gotten down to the business of getting the best out of the equipment that we have, but also the luxury of being boss and telling them that the songs aren't nearly ready to record and to come back next week!

having also dabbled in the very pro market by being assistant etc i look at the rate card, see "$160 hour/min 2 hours" type statements and think "good!" the combined experience of the people working in that studio deserve it, and the professional people that are prepared to pay the big dollars deserve the quality that they get for that price

[Kris]

these are all very good points.

Howard, let's just say $8 per hour by the end of the gig would have been great.....

I guess for me I'm trying to get my reputation as an audio engineer/producer to the point where I can do it full time. And yeah, the day job covers the small paying jobs. So while I do accept lower paid gigs even though, in my opinion, I'm worth more than that I still take them because sooner or later I'll do a job that will be really good and someone bigger than me will take notice and things will start to roll. It's already happening on a small scale but my hope is that it will keep rolling and gaining momentum. Meanwhile I take every chance I get to learn fom each job by opening my work to select people, people who know waaaay more than me, and I let them tell me everything that's wrong with it. Then I go away and work on it for next time. Then when I get that reputation up and running people won't hassle me on price because a) they will just accept what I charge or b) my agent will tell them to accept what I charge. I have no qualms paying Ricks rates, even if he bumps them up. Hopefully someone will say that about my rates one day.

Until then.....

[davemc]

Have to agree with what has been said here. Its hard to wor out what a hourly rate will be as some weeks you do 60 hours the next none. Although I

[mfdu]

i have been avoiding this topic because i kinda feel i am one of "those folks"

i.e. i work part-time (2.5 days per week) and run my project studio from my own home. i'm 33, married and paying off the mortgage.

i'm running an old studiomaster console, monkeytools LE and a 1/2" tape 8 track.

i keep my rates down because i am still trying to get started, trying to learn as i go, and my client base is what you may consider "low end" (though challenging and enjoyable none the less).

but they're still clients, and therefore they deserve to be treated as such. not everyone out there is tone-deaf, and i have been blessed with clients with a great variety of competent and exciting creative visions.

i aint likely to be stealing clients from metropolis, but equally i'll never reach that level if i continue working in isolation.

however, what keeps me going isn't the hope that one day i'll score the assistant role somewhere. nor is it to produce a top10 single.
what keeps me going is the look on the clients face when i exceed their expectations.
fact is there are people out there who couldn't get studio time if the low-end didn't exist.

so i'm sorry to all those with huge loans who are struggling to make repayments. thats a terrible position to be in.

but i love what i am doing. so who is going to stop me from providing the level of service that i am able to?

didn't you have to start somewhere too? a couple of sm57's and a 4track? what did you charge back then?

chris.

[mark rachelle]

i remember when i started with my first proper charging studio

i was offering awesome rates

13 hr day
24trk tape (1")
32 channel console
free accomodation
+ me for $250 per day

i had no idea what i was doing

still everyone in vic was pissed off at me for being so cheap

well we all have to learn

sure the low end of the market is now on their own computers or going to the $8 an hour studio, but i don't want that work

what is hard is when a major label who i won't mention won't even up a paultry $3k album advanse to record something decent and mix it on a real console

that is scary!!!

[Peter Knight]

fact is there are people out there who couldn't get studio time if the low-end didn't exist

Very true. But is anyone besides me experiencing a growing attitude from muso's that they have a right to cheap (or even free) recordings?

[mfdu]

peter

from what i've heard, there aint that much difference b/w talent trying to get some for free now compared to "back then"

should say, unsigned, self-financed talent. 'cause thats my bag.

i'm seeing a number of folks who have actually bought their own protools, convinced they can do it all themselves. they come to me bacause they cant create and record their creations without one stepping on the toes of the other.
maybe that is the way of the computer revolution - do thine pre-production at home, then seek a recording engineer who simply offers friendly comments and a conducive environment?

for my rates, i do not produce. i am not a producer. i wonder if i ever shall be? but what counts is i love recording.

anyway, i felt too shy to put my 2cents in earlier, and i think i should shut up now.

chris.

[heathen]

If I were to charged $1 an hour it would probably be within the ratio of what ie:Ricks studio is worth compared to mine also I have much less experience as well,though I'm learning fast. I charge $50 an hour if I can,I've spent 15 grand on my stereo signal chain addind 1 bit of equipment at a time.One day I will have all the tools and the greater experience I need to charge $200 an hour. If anyone wants a demo or low budget job mastered I'll do it,if anyone has invested a whole heap of cash into a record I'm not going to rip them off (though I do a good job with the tools I have). I'll say go and check out some other places such as Turtlerock or anyone who is reputed as being excellent at thier job.
90% of my work is producing and mixing for low budget home studio owners,90% of the tracks sound bloody terrible all sorts of noises and crap,shoddy performances but....they pay me to make it sound better which it does 100% of the time.Last week I mixed a an acid jazz band,it came up well,the guys in the band were absolutely stoked and so was I.
One record I produced ,mixed and mastered (yeah I know don't master it yerself if ya mixed it)should get airplay real soon,if it sounds shit yeah I did it but hey if I did something wrong I can guarantee it wont happen a second time,if it sounds great on radio then hey I want $200 bucks an hour as well.Gimmee Gimmee Gimmee.
I've heard some records which came from top mastering facilities which sound terrible as well,we all learn something new everyday even the top guys.

[Howard Jones]

[1] "So while I do accept lower paid gigs even though, in my opinion, I'm worth more than that I still take them because sooner or later I'll do a job that will be really good and someone bigger than me will take notice and things will start to roll."

There is simply no guarantee of this at all. What makes you so sure that this is the way the world works? An important issue is that working on low end stuff all the time creates a stigma that sticks, so people who start with cheapie inadequates will most probably be stuck there.

[2] "Very true. But is anyone besides me experiencing a growing attitude from muso's that they have a right to cheap (or even free) recordings?"

This attitude was always common and is even worse now. It may be driven by the public who undoubtedly feel that they have a right to music for nothing. I remember being (naively?) shocked by a story of an artist who was approached at the end of a gig by a fan who wanted a signature on a bootleg home-burnt copy of that artist's music! This fan didn't even blush when asking.

All of you who undercharge studio time and support that undercharging by cross -subsidisation from a day job are encouraging musos to believe that they should be getting something for nothing when you should be doing the exact opposite.

Most of the posts here have indicated that you are underexperienced at engineering and so feel shy about charging what the job is really worth. Okay... what about the cost of the equipment? The cost of dedicating a room or two to this specialised task? The cost of electricity and depreciation? What about repair costs when something breaks down? These can be very high.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say that ALL the costs I've just mentioned are zero. So, we are looking at the cost of YOUR labour only - experienced or not. How many of you are netting (NOT grossing) $15.00 per hour? How many $20.00 per hour? Would you work for someone else for $15 or $20 an hour?

My news for you is that you ARE working for someone else for those rates - and often that someone else is a band who under rates you because you under rate yourself. What is the hourly rate that Maccas pay to 17 year olds? Does Maccas pay that rate whether or not the 17 year old knows how to flip burgers to start? Ask yourself - are you working for significantly more than that? If not - why not?

[Linear]

Greetings.

Interesting topic. I have much to say about this but I

[Peter Knight]

should say, unsigned, self-financed talent. 'cause thats my bag.

Absolutely. I'd say that applies to most of us.

i'm seeing a number of folks who have actually bought their own protools, convinced they can do it all themselves. they come to me bacause they cant create and record their creations without one stepping on the toes of the other.

Well this a major issue here, I think. How many can do it all themselves? There'd have to be a few who can come pretty close. How many can't do it, but think they can?

for my rates, i do not produce. i am not a producer. i wonder if i ever shall be? but what counts is i love recording.

But you make sure you get your 5% out of them anyway, right? :wink:

anyway, i felt too shy to put my 2cents in earlier, and i think i should shut up now.

Nah mate, I wanted to provoke some discussion with this topic anyway. The more people write about what they actually think, the better.

[Kris]

[1] "So while I do accept lower paid gigs even though, in my opinion, I'm worth more than that I still take them because sooner or later I'll do a job that will be really good and someone bigger than me will take notice and things will start to roll."

There is simply no guarantee of this at all. What makes you so sure that this is the way the world works? An important issue is that working on low end stuff all the time creates a stigma that sticks, so people who start with cheapie inadequates will most probably be stuck there.

You left off my next line which answers your question. It's already starting to happen on a small scale.

Don't forget, I work in the Christian market. They don't like "outsiders" when it comes to their music teams etc. They especially look to musician's and audio guys from the bigger churches. I play and do audio type things in one of Australia's biggest churches.

Anyway... I'm sure of it because I see it all the time. Most notably with Directors and Directors of Photography but also with engineers and producers. Especially when they have a hit. It's not everyday common but it I see it often enough to know it works.

I'd bet anything that when Rick first cut a charting song people saw his name and started thinking about doing a gig with him. Reputation..... worth more than money. That's why I take my gear to you Howard for fixing and not to Phase even though they're 30km's closer and $40 per hour cheaper.

It's not magically going to happen, I'm not a fool. But if you walk the walk sooner or later if you keep at it and hone your craft someone's gonna sit down with you and talk the talk..... and nothing anyone says will make me belive any less.

[Howard Jones]

Fair enough, Kris. I wish you - and anyone else equally committed to the task - all luck & good fortune in achieving their goals. Some make it and many don't.

From the way you have written about yourself, I get the impression that you are looking to be a professional engineer and haven't necessarily built a studio to achieve this aim. I don't know if this is the case - just interpreting what you have written.

It seems pretty obvious from many of the posts that some people build a small studio as a way to get into engineering and herein lies a fair part of the problem as I see it. Running a studio and being an engineer are two different things. Running a studio means running a business and being an engineer (even for your own studio) means earning a wage. Combining them frequently seems to mean running a marginal business and not really drawing a wage, all while putting pressure on the rates of the next guy who is trying to be profitable. Anyway, I have said what I have to say about this.

I appreciate your comments about reputation as I also appreciate you driving past Phase to come to me. If you are confident that the things that you are doing are building your reputation, then you are on the right track. I'm also impressed by the spirited way that you have stated your case. Here's my motto in a nutshell: always operate from a position of strength and dignity. Not always easy...

[wez]

this thread is all about undercutting, really... something to be done very carefully, else it's bad mojo, i'm tellin' you.

i have been very careful to put my rates in exactly the right spot. i don't want to be seen as competing with the bigger names on price. but i'm happy to be be seen taking work away from the $30 p/h setups, especially as i charge more than 3 times that.

i recently upped my rate by almost 50%, after spending the last 3 or so years working out what i was worth. i've had more work in the last 3 months than i had in the last 2 years, and i am really comfortable with where i am in the market place. i hope that in a couple of years i'll actually be able to charge what i'm worth - at which point the balance will shift and i'll shift with it. but as fine as it is, and as difficult as it can be to achieve, it's there - sometimes it just takes a bit of stumbling around to find it.

oh, by the way... if you're one of those people who hates being undercut by the $8 guy... keep that in mind next time you're buying a new pre/comp/converter etc, and you're reaching for the new bearinger unit that's a fifth of the price.

[Ausrock]

QUOTE........"I work in the Christian market. They don't like "outsiders" when it comes to their music teams etc. They especially look to musician's and audio guys from the bigger churches. I play and do audio type things in one of Australia's biggest churches."


This philosophy reeks of a form of nepotism, which no matter which way you look at it is not a particularly admirable or Christian trait..........at least not one I would brag about being associated wth.

Up until now in this thread I've refrained from commenting as I made the decision a couple of years ago not to run my "studio" as a business. Maybe I'd been spoilt by some years of associating and working with genuinely talented individuals. It was after that that I initially established our facility to support my son and his friends with the idea of pulling in the occasional outside job, fortunately or unfortunately, it didn't take me long to realise that I didn't have the "personality" to tell young kids that they and their music basically sucked and that I had no intention of "fixing it in the box"..........at that point I decided not to "go public" with the studio, instead it is here for our use and for the use of a few friends. I feel priviledged to have had "association" with probably the best two ("commercially" oriented/mainstream) originals bands I have seen in a long time and I am still assisting the singer/somgwriter from one of those bands, I do this for nothing other than the pleasure of helping a young guy try and get somewhere in the industry.

Personally, I would say to those of you who think you're operating a studio............if you're charging less than $25.00/hour, then you're not running a business...........you're running a bloody charity and realisticly, you're not doing anyone any favours!!!

[wez]

don't we all offer work to relatives and friends, and people within our circle, ummm, every day? i think accusing someone of nepotism (which, by the way, really means having a family business - or keeping it in the family -, which is a bit different to what kris is talking about) just because they like doing business with associates, colleagues, friends - ie people they trust - is a bit unneccesary, certainly not very helpful. the phrase "reeks of nepotism" might be appropriate if we were talking about a government tender going to a cabinet minister's nephew. but last time i looked it was legal to pay anyone you like to do the job for you.

kris was just telling us how some of the people he deals with prefer to work. sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[davemc]

I do agree with Howard with what he says about at the end of the day you need to make a wage to live. I cannot see that at the moment, my friend made more then me after costs delivering Pizza's with no overhead last week. I am better with the gear then the business side for sure always have been. Waiting for a good band to come along while your doing a lot of newbies. Well I have recorded bands for 18+ years, had around 10-15 I thought were good enough.. Only a couple ever got there, although they moved on to other studios on the way:)
Really should of given it a better fulltime go years ago(IT money just let me buy nicer toys, although kept me sort of limited time wise on teh tsudio) or produced more bands then just engineer them. Bands producing normally means one member is just louder then everyone else.. Although when your paid to engineer, well its there vision to play to their mates. It comes down to personal choice. I know a get a lot of return work as I let them have a large say on the mix. I also put my mix name on a lot of stuff which I am not happy with.
The thing is most struggling muso's I know earn stable money. Be it the dole or day job. Although when it comes to time in the studio they think as you have a studio you must be rich..A lot cannot understand you have to actaully pay money for rent etc etc before you make a profit.
I do not see anything wrong with the part-timers etc.. I just think some of the marketing stuff is a laugh. Plugins are better now then outboard, My be!@#$%^& pre has a Valve etc etc.