Two buck shops

[Ausrock]

"don't we all offer work to relatives and friends, and people within our circle, ummm, every day?"

Speak for yourself Wez.


"i think accusing someone of nepotism (which, by the way, really means having a family business - or keeping it in the family"

According to the dictionary (Collins-Australian) I just checked, it's meaning is to be favouring relatives OR friends and if you bother to re-read my post, I wasn't in any way, shape or form accusing anyone, I was commenting on the overall philosophy Kris refered to.

[Howard Jones]

Observers of this particular thread may wish to refer back to our esteemed moderator's thoughts on the subject as expressed in his Last Word column in Audio Technology magazine around June/July 2004.

[Adam Dempsey]

My 2c:
we've upped our rates just the once in over 10 yrs. We stick to them with the exception of some discount deals, which have also remained consistent.
The one thing that has developed is the need to charge 'per hour of program material' for ongoing, larger contract archival/preservation work (we're just about to start on a batch of 16" acetates & vinyl with our Byer machine..!)

[mfdu]

hiya everyone. howard, you wanted a little more spine?

so looks like we're just spinning round and round on the spot at this point - the project studio guys (me) are jumping up and down saying "but i am still valid - i still provide a service"
and the big-end chaps are all "although things are tight we still know what makes us different to a project studio. we're better"

great.

i dont WANt to run a business. i can, and i do, but if i could give the gift of my skills (and equipment) i would, have, and will again.

and what is it that i think i am doing? well, i record musicians. preferably ones that can impart a sense of meaning to the listener . . .

does it need to be more complex than that? come here, son, and sing into this metal can. . .

what do you record for?
personally, i record people so i can participate in their musical creation.
i charge, so that i can advertise for more clients, and so the studio can grow and develop to better meet the needs of my clients in the future. hence the recent purchase of the drumkit which you were all kindly party to.

when you look at it that way, is there really such a distinction between project and professional studios?
yeah $8 p/hour sucks, for us. but if the mucisians dig what he does for them, then is there any reason for us to complain?
maybe we've all just too many outgoings, and we should just rid ourselves of our material possessions which are obviously dragging us down?

nude day, anyone?

chris.

[Howard Jones]

No point trashing someone's dreams; as I already said I wouldn't get thanked for it. I figure I've made my contribution to this one.

Go back to the beginning - Peter asked "Do people have no self-respect anymore?"

[Kris]

Ausrock, while I appreciate your opinion I think to take that one phrase out of cotext with the rest of my statement is unfair.

I don't personally know any of the people at other churches that I do work for until I work for them. My point was that because of my reputation in those circles (which is small, but growing) I attract certain clients. I have to submit a quote and a brief to the client just like all the other people who want the gig and there are times when I miss out on the gig due to price. What you must understand is that when it comes to worship style music there are very specific things that are required and unless you have an understanding of the mechanisms of a worship service and how they flow you're going to be at a disadvantage should you be pitching on the same job as someone who does have that knowledge.

The context of my statement was based around reputation as being the winner or loser of clients, not favouritism and within that context I have nothing to hide nor be ashamed of in regards to my work practices, ethics or integrity.

[Peter Knight]

Observers of this particular thread may wish to refer back to our esteemed moderator's thoughts on the subject as expressed in his Last Word column in Audio Technology magazine around June/July 2004.

Would that be the one about getting paid for your work being a basic human right? That article raised a few eyebrows amongst the muso's around here when I photocopied it and put it up on the control room door!

"You're too corporate, man"

Go back to the beginning - Peter asked "Do people have no self-respect anymore?"

Not me, that's for sure! :D

[Kurt]

Kris, I get where you're coming from I think.

I listen to metal, I move in metal circles and surprise, I'm the person metal bands call to make their gigs too loud.

If I liked dance music and moved in pill popper circles I'd be the person dance organisers called.

If I liked country and moved in country circles my guess would be that I'd be doing more country music gigs.

If I were a christian and moving in mysterious ways I wonder what kind of gigs I'd end up doing?

[mfdu]

so kurt, maybe the fact that i'm an eclectic freak explains why i get such a range of wierd and wonderful projects?

at least people are starting to remember to play instruments again and not rely on soft-synths and midi.

rock hard, dude. in fact, rock hard ALL dudes. have a groovy and productive '06!!!!!

:)

chris.

[David W]

I can remember starting out 9 years ago with a Roland VS880 making demo's from home.

I definitly got the destinct impression from reading forums ,audio magazines and just about anybody exept music shop owners that people like he were a blight on the recording industry.

I think that the fact that anyone with a passion can give it a go tends to make the establishment feel insecure.I personaly feel that local product over the last decade has improved considerably and stands up against the US in many or most cases.
Maybe thats because the establishment has been shaken a little and has lifted it's game or now has new members ,therefore thats a good thing.

Those newcommers I am sure started of working cheep as I know I did.

[Mitch Kenny]

[quote="mfdu"]
what do you record for?


I record because my chosen profession is a recording engineer. Not a musician who likes to record. Not a council worker who is a hobbyist. Not a supermarket shelf filler with a 001.

If you want to do it for the love of it, ring Carly and tell her that you don't want to be paid. At least then THAT STUDIO might make some money and maybe then they will pay my very overdue superannuation.

[mark rachelle]

i know this is a bit off topic but [quote]at least people are starting to remember to play instruments again and not rely on soft-synths and midi.

so my question is
what will the future of live cover gigs going to entail in the future

(before people say cover gigs are crap i do them cause i get to hang out with the best songwriters that have ever been and it gets me out of the studio,)

my point is that popular music today by enlarge cannot be played well by real instruments and certainly rarely works on acoustic gtrs or piano ect

so that leaves a whole industry playing 60/70/some 80s tracks
the treid and tested great songs from their time

really, brown eyed bloody girl is a great track but its soooo ground hog day.

so what will all the teenagers and clubbers going to do in the future when they discover wine, food and sunday arvos and live music

people generally want to hear the tracks that they have grown up with

my humps just doesn't cut it acoustically!

[/quote]

[Peter Knight]

Maybe people will see original music instead Mark? Not holding my breath here.

[Martin]

[quote="mark rachelle"]
my humps just doesn't cut it acoustically![/quote]
Ahh good old brown eyed girl, i lose a few fans most nights when i just flat out tell them i won't play it hehe

As long as there is guitar driven rock there will be plenty of songs from more recent years (90s, 00's <-- what i play at covers gigs) then there will be songs to cover...

What makes it hard is the amount of layering that goes into some songs to make that G, D, C chord progression a little different from the last band that did it, which gets tough when you halve your fee to add another player to your show!

[rob]

for some perverted reason i can't get the image of Mark doing a rendition of "my humps" on acoustic guitar out of my head....you've really messed up my relaxation time over the christmas / new year period !

[Mitch Kenny]

Whatever you do Martin don't halve your fee for doing a show. You might only have enough money to use an $8 per hour studio.

[mfdu]

hey mitch

someone is sounding a little grumpy.

"council worker hobbyists" - now you know i cant help but take that as a pointed comment. i might almost be inclined to resent a comment like that, if it wasn't a whole new year.

sure i have a part-time job. sure i have long service leave and paternity leave and superannuation.
i have also worked hard for the community in a highly political environment for ten years.
and i continue to work there so that i can contribute to the mortgage and buy my wife tickets to the 'White Stripes'...

now adays, it is common for people to multitask through a number of careers throughout their life.

i'm sorry that you're feeling undervalued.
i seek validation in my capacity to work well with my clients.

chris.

[heathen]

[quote="Howard Jones"]Observers of this particular thread may wish to refer back to our esteemed moderator's thoughts on the subject as expressed in his Last Word column in Audio Technology magazine around June/July 2004.[/quote]
Howards absolutely right,read this article. If its the one about the kids who did a great job (music recording and mixing AND ARRANGEMENT) with bugger all gear.
There is no point arguing about this,people will just do what they do,if it works well done if not do some bloody reading and listening and most importantly learning. This forum is a great resource for people interested in audio which obviously we all are,no -one knows everything,but the ones willing to share the knowledge they have gained over the years are contributing in a great way to the industry.Even Rick has had to post here to learn a few things here and there,from memory.
Also some audio engineers are hard to work with,some smell bad,some talk to much some people just can't stand each other.If someone is easy to get along with and does a good job then they will attract work.
Lets hold a convention start an audio engineers union and hire some 1980's style union head crackers to trash any studio chargeing under $100 an hour,every other industry secretly price fix thier goods or services.Impractical i know but what a dream.Of course this last paragraph is a joke.
Recently a client told me of a sad story of thier former band forking out 10,000 grand for a recording (in a top Sydney studio) which was unintelligable,mixed and tracked by an "engineer" who had just started there after finishing an audio course,very sad indeed,took the owner a week to attempt to fix it,ha yeah right,as I said a disaster. I guarantee no disasters for my work,if they are not happy with my mixing I tell em don't pay and sod off (usually an hour will tell if its going to sound ok),do not return unless you have music worth mixing.
My 5c.
Happy new year too everyone.Hope everyone is'nt too seedy.

[Mitch Kenny]

Chris.. You should take offence to my post and I shall pull my head in and stop being a plick but here's the thing.

You are not alone with mortages/wives/ etc and this can be a very difficult way to make a living and granted THAT STUDIO you were working at has its pitfalls but I would suggest that you could learn more about your strengths and weaknesses as an engineer by working in that environment of extreme time pressures than running a low budget studio yourself.

Sure many of the "clients" are studio first timers and their "producers" are the scariest people to have in a studio. You know what they say about a little bit of knowledge being dangerous. But due to the sheer number of acts that you could have access to their are always going to be diamonds in the rough.

Wondering why I call them THAT STUDIO, well....because there is County Court action between the ATO and THAT STUDIO over my and another engineers unpaid superanniation. Why do we continue to chase it year after year? Because we are entitled to. If we as "industry people" do not take ourselves seriously when it comes to being paid how on earth can we expect clients to. Whether they be the artists themselves, record companies, studios ar advertising agencies it can be a shit fight to get paid the appropriate rate sometomes. Does this mean we should not fight? They don't seem to be having as much of this problem in the UK. Could it be because studio engineers are in the same union as people working in radio, film, theatre and TV ??? I agree with Heathen's paragraph about unionisation!

Your assumption that I'm feeling undervalued could not be any further from the truth. For the past eight years I have thanfully had no other work outside of audio. I charge what I consider to be most reasonable rates for me and my clients. I also "multitask" my way through life by recording bands, adverstising, composition for film and tv, voice overs anything which gets me to the 150 or so days i try to sell in a year which provides me with a living wage. If a job is too big for my modest space I go to back beach or sing sing or trueform or anywhere to track and finish off at my place. If I am taking work to other places they are selling days, I am selling days, we are all getting closer to making enough money. I not only love my job but also my life. I also love surfing ( although i am still terrible) and the Western Bulldogs. These are my hobbies!

As i said at the start of my rant it is hard to make a go of it in this biz. I just think that it is even harder if you are working a permanant part time job. Weary Dunlop said that without true adversity, full potential cannot be realised. So if you wanna be a recording engineer go out and make it happen.

I wish you all the best in your endevours

[mfdu]

thanks mitch

i can see where you're coming from. being in such a situation with a previous employer must be hazardous to the health.

and yes - having reaped the benefits of local government unionism for a decade, i would fully support any union representing studio engineers which would represent me.

"it is hard to make a go of it in this biz . . . even harder if you are working a permanant part time job"
wise words. i couldn't aree more.
the security of knowing the bills are paid breeds a certain level of complacency which wouldn't exist if i actually took the big leap.

the thing is, at my age it's hard to find a legitimate entry-point into the biz.
so i'm a late-comer. sorry.
i would take a gofer role in a flash. i make good coffee and i play well with clients.
but until the big studios stop downsizing and start looking to take on new staff, i figure i've got two things to do :
a) learn my craft
b) build a client base

if i have to do that in a sub-standard environment, then isn't it good that i'm still trying?

mind you, if any [i]other[/i] studio came up with a proposal, then i'd be receptive.
because after all, i'm only a home-studio jockey.

but i still skate, so thats ok.

chris.

[Peter Knight]

mind you, if any other studio came up with a proposal, then i'd be receptive.
because after all, i'm only a home-studio jockey.
chris.

We could all get together via the forum. All the home-studio type guys in one city could get together and pool their resources to make one really good studio instead of a few OK ones. The group could consult each other on purchases, i.e. "I'll buy the distressor", "OK, then I'll buy the Atomic Squeezebox". If one guy wants to leave, he takes his gear with him.

Then the group could decide on a communal "studio rate" to keep the overheads paid, and they have a decent well equipped place to work! Until they have to fight each other over booking time, that is.

This is not an original idea, I've heard of people doing quite well this way. Although seeing as I'm the only guy in Perth (apart from Norm, who is down south anyway) I might have trouble improving on my party of one.


The "union" idea briefly crossed my mind, too!

[Howard Jones]

[mark rachelle]

hey mitch whatever happened to the delta secret album and "that studio"?

rob - no we do not do my humps thank you very much ;)

i believe we cannot form a union with decent wages because unless you have an employer capable of paying a decent wage the system would be unsupportable.

what we need is someone reading this collum with major political and policy changing influence, so they could get the australian goverment supporting the music industry in a way similar to canadian goverment.
they support their industry through the canadian music fund. tens of millions of dollars in outlay, 100's of millions of dollars back in to the country. not to mention the benifit of passive tourism marketing, world wide influence through the arts ect

[mfdu]

just lost everything i'd been typing. just as well.

let me just say this.

i believe that what i do is based around an ethic of social responsibility - enabling studio access for those who otherwise wouldn't be able to. i advertise $30 per hour, i record during office hours only, and i cap at $150 per day. and i will always negotiate if my client asks.

so i'm the bloodsucking villain of caulfield? undercutting metropolis isn't my aim, dammit. can't you see that????

all i'm trying to do is learn my craft and build a client base that will one day hopefully bring me in line with the needs of a *major* studio.
i don't want to be running my own show - it just seems like the only choice left available to me.

my clients are loyal to me, and enjoy recording in the environment i provide, and love the results of the work i do for them.
but it doesn't count a toss if the studio community (thats you guys) rejects me.

did you realise it is so easy to negate my hard work?
i'm looking up to you guys, and you just shoot me down.

cant you see the catch22?
i won't ever get into a studio at my age unless i have experience, and clients.
so where do you want me to pull them from?? my arse??
or is it just my fault i didn't get into this at age 16?

so i'm going to put this back onto you.

tell me what to do to pull a tape op/gofer job in a studio.
i'll do the tape alignments, the coffee runs.
i'll open your beer and feed it to you a sip at a time. whatever.

just tell me what to do.

chris.

[Linear]

Chris,

I'm with you buddy. This sounds like protectionist establishment bullsh!t that is not in keeping with the reality of current climates and market forces.

I think it's time for the whingers here to dry their eyes and move on. If you don't think you're getting paid enough for what you're doing, then it's time to find another vocation and do something else - we're not in North Korea and no-one is forcing anyone to do anything.

As for rates, the reality is that the days of the big, million dollar hotel-style multi-room facility are over, period. The future for recording studios is for smaller, more efficient facilities running smaller operations with dedicated owner/engineers prepared to work a job that they love for less-than-ideal money. Ideally, the best way to run a studio is to buy into a failed studio that has all of it's rooms built, or build your own yourself. You will get no-where starting big and borrowing to have a studio built for you.

Why should Chris consider other operations when setting his rates? I'm sure nobody in the industry gives two sh!ts about him and I guarantee he's tried to get his 'foot' in the door. I'm sure he was told he ~could~ empty bins and fetch coffee for $5/hour in a studio, which he probably declined so I think the effort to go out, teach yourself, find clients, establish a small business for himself should be applauded.


Chris

[mfdu]

hi linear (chris)

thanks for your comments, but i am loath to exclude or piss off any one who is "a legitimate engineer in a legitimate studio" - just in case i need to suck up to them in the future.
i see no reason to spread bad blood. not when i'm trying to make a start.

i do like your sense of humour tho.

if i had've been offered $5 per hour to make coffee and build mic cables, I WOULD'A TAKEN IT (sorry to perpetuate the whole "us/them" thing, but thats just the way it is)
if more studios took a leaf out of your book and brought back analogue tape, then maybe there'd actually be entry-level tape op jobs out there again?

but as we all know, there aren't "jobs" any more - you don't get paid, you get commissioned. why would i give up my 2.5days of solid pay in order to shit myself in the freefall like everyone else seems to be?

that said, my dream is to be in "the big, million dollar hotel-style multi-room facility".
but my future is DIY - i can't continue believing there is an offer out there waiting for me . . .

i just gotta keep on plugging on, and hope there are like-minded folks out there who don't view my efforts as a threat to their own livelyhood.

i'm not a bad man. i ain't trying to steal food from the mouths of your children, ya'll.

so i'm backing out of this now. fight it out amongst yerselves. i dont need the negativity. attitude breeds its own rewards.

if anyone wants me, i'll be in the studio. working.

chris.

[toadmark]

Hear hear!

good on you mfdu!

[Martin]

[quote="Linear"]I'm sure he was told he ~could~ empty bins and fetch coffee for $5/hour in a studio, which he probably declined...
Chris[/quote] (don't forget, cleaning toilets!)

And this has happened to more than just a few (me included!)... sure making tea in the 60's was a great way to maybe get to sit in on a session, but there sure are other ways. I'm quite comfortable that my CURRENT small studio work doesn't stack up against big studio stuff, how could it ever? Two completely different worlds with the common factor that recorded music/sound is the output..

Doin the night shift at the local audio school isn't my idea of 'learning the ropes'... but the latest music documentary on SBS sure does sound good!

[Mitch Kenny]

Mark....From what I can gather ( and its been a while since I've been in the joint), there was an out of court settlement between that studio and the Goodrems as well as an undertaking between the studio management and the record company not to release. If you want a laugh i'll shoot you out a copy ! Again I am only speculating but by the amount of money they have spent on gear in their "massive studio upgrades" (their words not mine) I am prety sure that the settlement was in their favour. This is one of the reasons I am still dirty about my super.

I absolutley agree with you about the Canadian Government and their approach to music. When I was there in June/July there is a buzz about the creation of Canadian Music as part of a national identidy. Funnily enough they didn't budge on minimum Canadian content on radio unlike our fearless leaders who were happy to let i go in the US "fair" trade agreement.

I have made contact with the Arts and Media Allience some years ago about becoming a member and their response back then was that studio engineers were a can of worms and in some ways I agree with them. There is not alot that they can do about studios who subcontract engineers on an invoice basis. Things such as fee, tax, super etc is all in the subcontractors hands. If you are good enough, you usually get paid appropriatly. Despite what has been written in this post there are some of us who work in other peoples studios. What they did say that they would consider fighting for was for employees minimum wages and condition. I am not sure how this is affected by the new IR laws. My pay at that studio was a bit above the award rate for Studio Technicians was at the time. Where I got burned was the money which by law should have been deposited in to super on my behalf was never done.


While i'm still here I should have a go at someone.

I think that Rob needs his head read if he thinks you dressed up as Fergie is a disturbing thought. I have driven down the Pennisula for less !!

[rick]

wow, this post is getting kinda heavy ,
i am sure not one single person on this board wants to shut any other studio down so i guess any discussion is helpful .

if somebody working for 2 bucks an hour could shut me down,
well so be it
but the thing is my competitor brags to me he loses money and keeps the " studios 30Ohum"
because it amuses him.
on an hourly rate 2 bucks an hour (profit) in the biggest studio in the land is about right. which makes 30Ohum a VEH
.
and in my opinion i think in comparison to the last twenty years the government is RIGHT behind the music biz at the moment,
i do a gov grant record, about twice a month, heaps of bands i know had a touring grant last year, could they do more....?
sure.
did we all pay heaps of tax last year so they could...?
ermm?
do they let us average our tax?
can you in canada?

has anybody heard a good song yet this year?