Purchasing New Goodies

[Mickstape]

Hi all, i just wanted to pick some brains on a matter of equipment that i intend to purchase.

I recently got approval from the better half to indulge in some un-justified (in her mind) equipment purchases and wanted to ask some of the more experienced heads here what they thought about the merits of purchasing a tracking system that has the benefits of being non PT oriented.

I did consider dropping this in the current post about digis s/ware but thought better of it as it is not entirely related.

So here i go.

As i already have PT8LE and a Mbox i am considering Nuendo due to its larger track ability plus its non proprietary hardware bonus. Is this the right way to look at purchasing a new DAW?

I was considering getting the 003 factory plus but was informed by the helpful sales rep at the particular place of business that i would probably be better off going with the Apogee Ensemble, the AD16 DA16 converters and the x-symphony board and card. I have done a little fact checking and aside from the fact that there are only 4 mic pres + 8 ADAT i'm wondering if the pres are really that much better than the digidesign pres? I know that if i purchased the plus 003 i would get 8 pres but is it really worth being stuck with a system that is really only a pure PT based system?

I have read through Gian Parodis post regarding her dilemma on what interface to purchase and seem to be in the same position. Well a similar position. I don't really like to buy gear that i will either want or have to upgrade within 2-3 years therefore i usually will spend the coin safe in the knowledge that my investment is worthwhile. Gian, how is your duet going by the way? Are you happy with Apogees hardware?

I should elaborate on what i wish to use this for i guess, i am currently moving towards starting a mobile rig that is capable of live tracking and mixing, hence i feel that i need to have quality gear to ensure that the signal quality is re-produced at the best it can possibly be. Now i may have opened a can of worms with that last statement, obviously the ability of the engineer to capture the sound plays as much a part as the gear, BUT, i am confident in my ability and will leave it at that.

Also i wanted to ask about the more tech sde of ADAT and SPDIF but will leave it for later, from what i have read in the texbooks i have a meager understanding of the roles these play in signal conversion but really what i need to know is, if i don't buy a 003/PT system, am i going to regret it in the future? Will i be wishing for those extra mic pres? Will i have problems because i tracked into Nuendo, Logic etc and then have to import into PT and use my mbox? Is the final result going to justify the extra money spent? In regards to the last question, i feel that you pay for what you get therefore if its worth more 90% of the time its better quality and lasts longer.

Arrrgh i'm pulling my hair out and am just itching to get my hands on some new stuff. But haste makes waste as my nan says so i will wait for some pro advice.

Cheers

[Chris H]

Just a quick reply before morning tea....... as well as thinking of the preamps, think what system will give you better clocking.I am happy with the 4 preamps on the ensemble but many give the Metric Halo pre's as the best on a converter.
Getting the better converter with "only 4 preamps is a better option for upgrading in the future as you can always buy 4 more preamps in the future, or a nice small but good analogue desk...there are plenty around. For live recording i often get the signal from the FOH direct outs.

[walding]

ALL I can add is the pre's on both the 002 and 003 SUCK and suck badly.

No head room, weak and thin.

Avoid at all costs if you can.

[Chinagraf]

If you're not doing post production or a lot of film work you should just get Cubase 5.

[Sheer Noise]

Logic...

Best bang for buck in a DAW hands down. Sounds great too. Logic and an Ensemble will keep you smiling!



Did I REALLY beat Smash suggesting that?!?!?!

[Kurt]

If you want to do live stuff why not get a dedicated HDD recorder? I use a Fostex D2424 but there are others around, Mackie, Ta@#$% etc. Using direct outs from the desk means you don't need pres at all ;)

You could team it up with Apogee convertors (or whatever you can afford/justify to the Missus) which you can also use at home with your PC and 'tools.

Oh, something to think about... I know it's fashionable to whinge about "only" having 48 tracks in 'tools but how often has this actually been a limitation for you? I use Sonar which doesn't have the same limitations, but I've never needed 48 tracks.

Wasn't Sgt. Peppers done on a 4 track?

[Mickstape]

Cheers Guys

@ Chris H - I will do some checking on the Metric Pres, as i have had limited contact with the actual hardware itself i can only really rely on grabds and clips that people post on GS and other similar sites to actually hear the difference. And even then i struggle to define some of the difference in actual quality in some of the clips. Perhaps its because i'm listening through HP's but i will be referenceing on the monitors a little later this arvy.

@ Walding - Mate i hear good things and bad things about digis interfaces, being a relative novice when it comes to hardware and time spent with it leaves me at quite a disadvantage when it comes to comparisons. I have tracked on both 002 and 003 and i've found that yes it can be a little thin but it depends on the mics used and what techniques also. that said i'm not disputing your comment and feel that you wouldnt be saying so with out good cause for it. Perhaps you could point me to some clips/recordings where you think this is relevant?

@ Chinagraf - Well at the moment i'm kinda stuck in which particular area i want to specialise in with regards to mix or recording. I have been lucky enough to be a part of 4 films now since starting my BA and also to have tracked 7 bands and a number of solo artists in the studios. as such i have found that i am taking the film work because of the extra money factor and do enjoy the post involved as well as the nature of getting a good signal while utilising the rejection to get the best clean sound (most shoots have been outdoor with a lot of ambient spill). In regards to your recommendation of Cubase 5, any particular reason why the steinberg s/w is your choice Andy? I have Cubase 3 and absolutely hate it with a passion, tell the truth i would rather use Acid Pro LOL.

[heathen]

I'd say cubase 5 too, which I will be getting. If I were setting up a new rig I'd go with Cubase 5, a lynx or RME AES card and lynx 16 channel converters. Then I'd buy preamps.

But that's just me.

[Chinagraf]

The reason (no pun) I suggest Cubase 5 is because it rocks. I'm a PC guy. I would have stayed with Logic if they hadn't forced me to switch by discontinuing PC support years ago, but no regrets nowdays. I've been on Cubase since SX3 and the difference between that and V5 is light years.

[Mickstape]

Sorry fellas your posts were after my reply otherwise i would have addressed them in my last reply.

@Sheernoise - Yes i do have Logic Express, we were very lucky to have had it included in our laptop packages at three letter word college. I had toyed with the notion of not even buying Nuendo as i have Logic and PT, apparently thats all you need and i would tend to agree, i guess im a software junkie haha. On the plus side i wouldnt have to relearn a whole new system if i stayed with logic. I definitely lean towards the Ensemble/Logic combo, all the reviews i have read say its a fantastic way to minimalise without compromising the quality. Point noted and filed. Thank you.

@ Kurt - Yep was thinking about a Ta@#$% hdd, i have seen a few 2nd hand for reasonable prices but i'm wary of purchasing anything 2nd hand really. I guess the money saved on the extra gear would give me more to spend on creating a specialised mobile rig but as i mentioned in my last i really want something that is a dual application rig. By that i mean something that i can quickly pack up and put into the van for a live gig and then put back into the control room for studio and post work. I guess i'm trying to put all of my eggs into one basket which may or may not be a good thing.

What are your thoughts on this issue people. Should i have one rig for mobile and live and one for the studio?

[Kurt]

I would like to keep mine separate, I have my crappy Steinberg interface and ADA800's to record at home straight to PC. I have the Fostex and the same ADA8000's to do live stuff.

When I get rich (hahaha) I'd like to get more convertors to stay at home (hopefully a step up from the ADA's) and just have a rack with the Fostex and Berry's for live stuff. At the moment I also use most of my live mic's for recording, be nice some flasher ones that stay at home.

[Chris H]

Mixtape, if you are going in the direction of Cuase then Nuendo is by far the better choice if also doing sound for picture. Also to hear the (rather small) diference between one converter's pre and another most of the diferences will be masked if listeningto Mp3. You would need a very good monitoring chain and at minimum 16 bit 44.1.
I lean towards Logic and the ensemble as Logic is $500 for education price with no limited operation, and i found Logic to be a breeze when i did the sound editing for a series of surf DVD's having the movie as a float on one screen while having logic up on the other, etc etc. Most DAW's have simmilar feature sets but i like to go for the option where i never have to get under the bonnet and sort out what's going wrong hence my preference for Mac and Logic.

[Mickstape]

just a quick correction.

i just realised that Gian is in fact a man and not of the female variety. My apologies haha, sorry mate, i havnt encountered a first name like yours before. My bad.

[lonearranger]

+1 for cubase - still on version 4 (resisting high upgrade cost). I also have logic which I use sometimes, but now find its easier to do most things in cubase. Doing music not for film.

That said, the plugins and instruments in logic have the edge over the stuff that comes with cubase.

Take care purchasing educational versions, I seem to recall that you may not be able to upgrade.

You should get your head around ADAT/SPDIF/wordclocking stuff before you get too much further.

If you are still keen on using tools for some of the time then perhaps the m-audio pro26 or their control surface interface. This would keep you compatible with protools (M-powered), plus you have the option of adding external clocking and better converters via ADAT.

Also check out the Steinberg MR816 interfaces and the Yamaha N8/12s. These were on my short list along with RME fireface which you should also check out - highly regarded for stability.

I ended up going the n12. 12 analog ins/8 pres/8 outs. The pres and converters are getting a good wrap at the price point - much more depth and detail compared to my maudio 1010. GS forum has 100 pages of discussion. Down sides are no ADAT/SPDIF or word clock. The integration with cubase/nuendo is a nice bonus, but would still be a viable option to use with logic/reaper etc. Note that these are not a control surface, and they are quite big - more like an analog desk, but with transport/headphone and control room features. I am yet to put it thru all the paces, but am pretty happy so far.

Cheers

[Gian]

Hi Michael

I got the Duet and Logic Express.

I am very happy with the Duet straight in. But I have some JLM preamps, that I use before it.

The Duet pres sound silky to me.

I have not used more than 2 inputs and 2 output yet. I like the thought of having more, and some situations where I would use more inputs, I can't so I just adjust how I record to suit the limitations.

The Duet interfaces very nicely with Logic.

If I had the money at the time, I would have gotten a Apogee Ensemble or if I had more I would have got the RME stuff.

Oh, btw I am a him, not a her :)
Gian is an italian name for John

If you are looking for a mobile rig, I would get something more robust than a Duet - something you can rack mount. As well as have more inputs.

[mylesgm]

I have PT HD, Logic and Digital Performer. I've also used LE extensively. I do a lot of tracking at studios with HD and then used to mix either on DP or PT LE. I know there are plenty of issues with LE and that is eventually why I upgraded to HD but I did do plenty of quality work on the LE system. You use the tools you've got. I've never liked logic except for the plugins and the synths. I've used that quite a lot in the last few months as I've been receiving projects to mix that were tracking Logic. I hate it. I find the editing terrible, cross fades and such really annoying. I've found it terribly unstable with all kinds of crazy things happening and there are so many automated "features" that do things for you and assume you don't know how to do them yourself that it really forces you into one working method. Most projects I've ended up exporting into tools and doing the work there.

Another program not mentioned much though is Digitial Performer. I used that exclusively for years prior to working in PT. Stable, lots of good plugins, flexible and has all the features of HD, no limit on track count, editing is a breeze and movie work is also native etc etc. My one beef is that at times it can be slow to work on occasionally pausing for 5 or 6 seconds before completing an instruction. Otherwise a great program. When I worked on LE if I was tracking I would track in DP with my RME converters and then export and mix in LE so that I could take it into a larger studio to do final mixes. I really encourage you to check it out.
Ecen though I now have HD sometimes I still track, edit or mix in DP cause I'm so familiar with its way of working and I can use some really cool free au plugins.

Also in regards to working on LE I always used an external spdif converter rather than the mbox one for a better quality sound. And I also used the mbox 2 pro because it was firewire and was more stable than the usb options.

there are my thoughts...

[walding]

+10 ON Digital performer.

She is my 2nd wife :D

Mac only though but hey PC's suck right :D

[13thbeach]

As far as a live recorder goes, just use something that is stable and saves "while" its recording. I started out using PTLE. The problem was you can't save untill you stop the dam thing and then save it. Very risky way to work. I'm not sure what software will do it but I know some stand alone HD systems do. From memory the Makie HDR24 does, however you need to run an external board to set up a monitor mix. alot of shit to cart around. I use the Ta@#$% X48. Its increadibly stable, saves every minute and has an internal mixer for monitoring. Just an awsome little box for tracking. Dont try to mix on it though haha! its a bit of a battleship in that area, but you can always import into another program like PT...etc.

[Kurt]

My Fostex doesn't do it, it's only been an issue a couple of times (lose power, lose the lot), but it sucks....

As far as a live recorder goes, just use something that is stable and saves "while" its recording. I started out using PTLE. The problem was you can't save untill you stop the dam thing and then save it. Very risky way to work. I'm not sure what software will do it but I know some stand alone HD systems do. From memory the Makie HDR24 does, however you need to run an external board to set up a monitor mix. alot of shit to cart around. I use the Ta@#$% X48. Its increadibly stable, saves every minute and has an internal mixer for monitoring. Just an awsome little box for tracking. Dont try to mix on it though haha! its a bit of a battleship in that area, but you can always import into another program like PT...etc.

[Aearth]

I'll second the Logic/Ensemble combination, I hardly turn my PTHD system on these days.
Just to note that the Ensemble have 4 preamps with light limiters which are very good.


nIC

[ChrisW]

Just to say I'm not biased against any software recording solution.
I'm a PT fan and use LE as my main rig (while I only have a part time studio).
Don't kid yourself about the LE system and associated interfaces though, they are full of compromises IMO.
They do work just fine and I'm happy to use them for certain things, but there are professional level set-ups that are as cheap, or not much more expensive IMO. For example: Logic.

A lot of my pro musician buddies back in the UK have switched to Logic over the last year or so.
When I get my proper studio up and running I wont be buying PTHD (unless they radically reduce the price), nor using LE any more.

[Mickstape]

Cool thanks for the responses people.

@ Gian. Sorry mate, my bad lol, everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Thanks for your input.

@ Lonearranger - I was thinking about a small analogue desk, well actually i really want a LS9 32 but i figure if i buy the console then if my initial signal chain is into really nice pres i have to eventually go into the desk pres which will kind of cancel out the "goodness" of the ensemble pres because it will use the yamahas/consoles head pre-amps. Which seems like a catch 22 as well as a waste of coin. Thoughts on this? Also yes i must read more into wordclocking and digital signal carriers, we "touched" on it during one unit but to be honest it was left up to us to read more about it then seek advice from the teachers if we wanted further clarification. Cheers man.

@ Mylesgm - Thanks for the heads up on digital performer, i will go and check it out. I really need to have a DAW that is multi functional, PT can do what i need and when i need it but i really don't like the whole proprietary HW issue. Thats my major reason for going with a cross platform/hardware SW system. It seems popular thought says i should stay with logic and the apogee gear.

@13thbeach - yeh definitely something that has logical save functionality and redundancy is a must for me. I wasn't aware (read-"hadnt found out yet") that the Ta@#$% gear could do that so cheers for the heads up. I feel that you really have to have something like that when tracking live gigs, i've used logic and tools to track live (stereo out of the desk with a Ta@#$% US122 & the mbox) and its a pain to have to stop, quickly save and then punch back in again. I couldnt imagine losing a session due to a fuse blowing or the like. it gives me gut pains just thinking about it haha.

I really appreciate you all adding your 2 bob worth, i think i'll go with the Ensemble/AD-DA16/X-Symphony/Logic combo. I reckon if i pair it with a decent nearfield/midfield setup i can have a system worthy of tracking and mixing on for any application.

I welcome more comments or advice but i think i know what i'm going to spend my money on now.

I just have to convince the better half that it will pay itself of within a year or two.

Maybe i might invest in a new couch to sleep on as well hahah!

[lonearranger]

Cool thanks for the responses people.
...

@ Lonearranger - I was thinking about a small analogue desk, well actually i really want a LS9 32 but i figure if i buy the console then if my initial signal chain is into really nice pres i have to eventually go into the desk pres which will kind of cancel out the "goodness" of the ensemble pres because it will use the yamahas/consoles head pre-amps. Which seems like a catch 22 as well as a waste of coin. Thoughts on this? Also yes i must read more into wordclocking and digital signal carriers, we "touched" on it during one unit but to be honest it was left up to us to read more about it then seek advice from the teachers if we wanted further clarification. Cheers man.

.....

Mickstape,

The n12/8 have inserts on each of the mic chanels, so you can insert your nice pres after the built in pres. According to the block diagram the inserts are the last point before the A/D conversion. The build in pres are pretty clean. To me this is a pretty good compromise. I understand you can daisy chain these with the mr816x/csx interfaces for more inputs/outputs.

I am interested as to how you would use the Ensemble/AD-DA16(X Series)/X-Symphony together. Seems like they are different products.

From what I can see the symphony solution needs a symphony card in a mac pro - this lets you get upto 128 (64 in/out?) tracks - see
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/s ... on=compose

Looks like you can get a card for the x-series that will talk firewire, but dont think you will get a really high track count.

If you are looking into the high track count/pcie card options then RME also have some products worth checking out.

I suspect that the Ta@#$%/Mackie hardware solutions mentioned earlier may prove a more cost effective and portable solution. I have used the Ta@#$% 24track for a project in the past and it worked well. These are also available for hire. You should do some sums to see if hiring this gear (or a pre tools rig) in when you have a job, then moving it off to your logic environment to finish off, is a more cost effective and future proof solution.

Cheers

[heathen]

I've been using an RME hdsp24/96 with a rosetta 800 for years, works very well. Also a Rosetta 200 on firewire on my mixdown pc, it's extremely stable and I've never had an issue.

[Mickstape]

" Mickstape,

The n12/8 have inserts on each of the mic chanels, so you can insert your nice pres after the built in pres. According to the block diagram the inserts are the last point before the A/D conversion. The build in pres are pretty clean. To me this is a pretty good compromise. I understand you can daisy chain these with the mr816x/csx interfaces for more inputs/outputs.

I am interested as to how you would use the Ensemble/AD-DA16(X Series)/X-Symphony together. Seems like they are different products.

From what I can see the symphony solution needs a symphony card in a mac pro - this lets you get upto 128 (64 in/out?) tracks - see
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/s ... on=compose

Looks like you can get a card for the x-series that will talk firewire, but dont think you will get a really high track count.

If you are looking into the high track count/pcie card options then RME also have some products worth checking out.

I suspect that the Ta@#$%/Mackie hardware solutions mentioned earlier may prove a more cost effective and portable solution. I have used the Ta@#$% 24track for a project in the past and it worked well. These are also available for hire. You should do some sums to see if hiring this gear (or a pre tools rig) in when you have a job, then moving it off to your logic environment to finish off, is a more cost effective and future proof solution."


Hey thanks for giving me the heads up there, the way the fella put it at the shop he made it seem like i needed both the ensemble and the x-symphony setup which, being the the relative novice i am, i took at face value. After checking that link i figure that for what i need then the ensemble is the thing i need, although i'm still a little unsure whether i would need the AD DA16's still? I think the most i would track at once would be , at the maximum, 16 tracks, of course i'm limited to my mic collection so at the moment i can only track 9 at once but i'm thinking of some new mics now that i will have nearly 6000 to spare.

To be honest, I'm glad i hadnt got to the shop yet, i'm planning on hitting it this afternoon to finalise the sale, i will be having words with the sales rep as i feel he misled me a bit. SO i'm awaiting your reply haha.

[Chris H]

the ensemble as a unit comes with 8 analoge in ans outs and a digital stereo in/out spdif. then for a further 8 analogue in/outs you get an A to D converter with light pipe optical that conects to your ensemble and is clocked to the ensemble. For a cheap and ok option dare i say it, the b#@#^%$&#inger AD800 does an acceptable job. That gives you a total of 16 in/outs.

[lonearranger]

Pretty certain the AD Da 16s are really for use with a symphony system, or standalone with the firewire card option - not really going to work with the ensenble as such.

The ensemble expands to 16 I/O via the ADAT interface. As it only has one adat In and Out, you will only get 8 extra tracks at 48K. If you want to use 96K then it drops to 4 (extra tracks). This is pretty much what happens with all ADAT interfaces. Thus something like the RME fireface 800 or some of the Motu products will give you 2 ADAT ins and 2 ADAT outs - allowing up to 8 tracks at 96K.

As chris mentioned the AD800 is one of many ADAT based expanders you can use, varying in quality and price. RME, MOTU, presonus are among others.

I would suggest you hold off and do a bit more research before you buy anything, make sure you understand what you are buying, especially when your sales guy has already confused or mislead you. Do they carry other brands like RME and MOTU? If not then proceed with caution.

I you cant resist making a purchase then you would be fairly safe to start with the ensemble or fireface, but hang off buying the other kit until you need to use more than 8 tracks at a time, and then choose from whats available at that time, bank your cash or buy something that will hold its value and be of more use like good mics or pres.

Cheers

[waitup]

the ensemble as a unit comes with 8 analoge in ans outs and a digital stereo in/out spdif. then for a further 8 analogue in/outs you get an A to D converter with light pipe optical that conects to your ensemble and is clocked to the ensemble. For a cheap and ok option dare i say it, the b#@#^%$&#inger AD800 does an acceptable job. That gives you a total of 16 in/outs.

It's certainly not Rick's new box, but at approximately one six hundred and twenty fifth the price per channel, no one would expect it to be. I've used said be!@#$%^& box, and acceptable job is a fairly accurate description as far as I'm concerned.