stereo a/d (s/pdif) [budget]

[mfdu]

ok chaps.

time for another two channels here at chez MFDU. mainly for stereo mixdown off the console, but it'd be handy if there were mic pre's as well.

had an order with factory sound for a b*$&^# src24/96 ad/da - been almost a year, as the alesis chips ran out apparently.
seems about the best value, but no mic pre.

i would of course go crane song or whatever, but the budget just wont stretch . . . yet!!!

serge from audio oz has me looking at the ultracurve deq2496 "mastering processor"
keep it nice
it has many things i don't want, but may be tempted to fart about with to my detriment.

next step up seems to be the dbx386 (how old is that?!) or the joe meek twinQ.

i used the dbx years ago, and at the time thought the type4 limiting worked a treat (as a life saver), and the tube drive seemed ok for a bit of judicious flava.
how does it stand up now???

the joe meek twinQ seems a good unit - switchable trannies, compression (opto or fet?), eq and mic pre's for when i want 'em. and i dare say able to slam a mix when needed. hopefully able to stay well out of the way when needed, too.
so how does it sound?

at that price, i'm getting close to the RME or adam 2chn a/d. but without the mic pre and iron (or valves).

thoughts? comments? suggestions?

chris.

[chris p]

Hi there MDFU

FWIW I was up in Brisbane in mid-Jan talking to Joe Malone from JLM - he was modding a couple of mics for me - he is a rabid believer in separating any digital AD/DA device from audio processing (mic pre, whatever), 'cause (in his view) the clock signal runs all over the analog audio.

I know that means looking at two boxes rather than one (something like an Apogee MiniDAC, perhaps) if SPDIF is an essential part of the equation, and my setup certainly has its own compromises in this regard. Still, I do trust that Joe knows what he's talking about, and I'm rethinking my own acquisition plans accordingly.

[Jason]

Hi Chris

If you think that the budget will be large enough in the future, I would wait and get the Cranesong. Its great gear. You will thank yourself.

Cheers

[mfdu]

[edited] - RME adi-2 - anyone had experiences with this?



i hear what you're saying, in terms of keeping adda seperate to mic pre's.

it makes sense, and i had been thinking i would only use the mic pre's 10% (when tracking) - for that, i can build a pair of green pre's or a pair of JLM's pre's . . .

i know i need to just keep saving up. i won't be happy with the b*&#"
^$*(% dec 'mastering processor' - i can tell that straight away.

ok ok. so we'll just say we all agree - i don't want mic pre with ad, i don't want what i can afford right now. i want to do it right.

my clients will thank me.

chris.

[Kris]

actually, your clients probably won't notice the difference.... but that's why you buy the good stuff.

[mfdu]

from my research, i think the RME adi2 is the step down from the cranesong level in terms of clocking and a/d.

i'm wondering if anyone has comments about the RME clock and convertors?

chris.

[Adam Dempsey]

Not wanting to assume less than quality (ie accurate) A/D for mixdowns ( a worthy investment!) the RME has a good rap, although sometimes externally clocked. Search at:
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/s/0


There's also the (8ch) Digital Audio Denmark model with mic pre's - far less expensive than the "big names" but truly up there for performance.
http://www.gha.com.au/digital-audio-denmark.htm

Or Benchmark of course - great quality for $ (sep A/D, D/A & without mic pre's). If that helps...

[mfdu]

of course - benchmark. i had forgotten them. the d/a certainly got a good review.

[Steve]

I know I'm recommending stuff that would make many here baulk....

However, if you're on a budget -

Roland MMP-2's can be picked up cheaply at run-out.

Focusrite Platinum series with the optional A/D card are workable.

There's a device called a "Flying Cow" which is cheap.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/F ... -main.html

A Roland M-1000 mixer may be sourced cheaply at run-out - good A/D conversion for multiple SP/DIF and analog devices into a SP/DIF output.

At a pinch I've even used Lexicon MPX series effects in "thru" mode (MPX 110/200/500/550) to get the analog signal to SP/DIF.

As ever, there are probably better solutions, like Apogee etc, but the above I can vouch for (have used them more than once).

Always be certain to pre-test your intended solution - some SP/DIF can be temperamental by not linking or slaving to other digital devices cleanly (Echo Mia card SP/DIF for example). Don't assume all SP/DIF is the same. And if a PC is involved, check the drivers work OK under Windoze.

[mfdu]

thanks for that.

i ended up going with a temporary solution (deep breath) the b(*&^#r DEQ "mastering processor".

it does a/d and d/a, but also has heaps of metering (VU, peak) and real time frequency analysis. these are proving quite handy on mixdown to stereo through my console.

also found that the ability to input an omni mic and measure the frequency response of the room to be handy. mainly so i know what i'm dealing with. it's supposed to be used in the control room in conjunction with multiband dynamic eq to achieve "flat response".
i used it to check the response of the actual recording spaces so i know where my humps are.

my humps my humps my humps.

i am avoiding the "mastering processor" components like the multistage dynamic eq like the plague. but with all that bypassed and simply taking the input through the a/d into s/pdif it is transperent like i want.

next step will be apogee or crane song, but i just needed a little something while i'm saving up . . .

chris.

[Jason]

I'm not saying that its bad but I wouldn't put to much faith in the metering on that box. Alot of mastering houses have just meters on there own that cost more than that box.
IMHO. Not trying to stir.

Cheers

[Adam Dempsey]

Likewise, many ppm meters (eg DAT machines and much digital outboard) are really analogue meters with digital displays. So just leave yourself a segment or two of headroom (not a problem with 24 bit A/D anyway) to help prevent clipping.

The best ppms (eg on the Sony PCM 7010, 1630 or high end A/Ds) enable options to meter every digital word or, for eg every 4th, to define an "over".

In this regard the output meters on many DAWs are often more accurate than any input or mixer channel meters, for those who've noticed discrepancies.

You may well find that a digital multi processor, if you have one with analogue ins and SPDIF out, in true bypass (no digital gain dsp) will do you far better, sonically, than your temp solution..!

[mfdu]

jason

i know exactly what you're saying, and i do agree.

but when it comes down to it, i ain't a big mastering house. i ain't even a big studio.

IMHO (if i may) the metering in the unit is simply to provide me a guide as to what signal i feed it, not how i'll process within the unit itself.

ie. i'll view the real-time frequency analysis to see if there is too much buildup in the 70hz > 120hz area once the signals are summed. but then i'll use analogue eq on my console to deal with the offending channel paths.

unfortunately sometimes we need to make compromises. i WANT a premium 2channel a/d input for mixdown. i WANT a better console with more headroom and more channels. i WANT to not have to scrape and scrimp and save. i WANT to quit my part-time job and focus purely on the studio.


you smell what i'm cooking.

chris.

[Jason]

I smell it good and strong!

Good luck to you mate. I must say I don't envy you at all going out on your own to make a go of it. I was greatly blessed when I landed this job and have no plans to leave any time soon.

I edited my other message to. I left a word out that change the meaning of what I was trying to say. I think I'm having one of those dumb days.

[mfdu]

jason - it's cool.

i generally assume folks are dissing my efforts, because everything is so anti small-guy. if i ever landed a job in a "real" studio, you wouldn't be able to beat me off with a shitty stick!!!

i'm running mfdu so i can learn and put into practice - i love what i do, but it kills me everytime a "real" studio tells me what i should do or how i should do it. i'm trying, dude.

what i used to do on mixdown was send the stereo mix in the 002R alt.in (unbal RCA's) with light inline compression. i would change the compressor to achieve different flava's. that used to be a way tight fit - had to trim all channels right back to keep the stereo buss low enough to avoid digital clipping.

the new a/d unit allows me to run a much hotter mix off the console. the main stereo meters are at +12 where the a/d meters show -3db. purrrfect for when you want it hot and tight. also allows for plenty of headroom when i want the mix open and clean. . .

happy enough for the moment.

chris.

[SJRS]

Hi Chris,

It's Jason here. I am on my home computer.

Todays message didn't come out real well. It was only ment to be a 'watch carefully' comment not a 'this is how you should have done it' comment.

I fell into the trap of trusting the meters on our Soundtracs console and payed the price.

Cheers

Jason

[mfdu]

hi again jason

i guess the whole thing comes down to this - we're dealing with aural, not visual.

a visual prompt can be handy at times, but it wont take the place of actually listening, huh?

chris.