SOLD - Please Delete

[Chris H]

I think if you gradually buy/restore old console modules and get one of Rob,s passive mixers.
This is the future of mixing as you can mix on vintage Neve, API, Quadeight, Electrodyne's AWA's etc all at once.
Passive mix busses sound amazing with the right Eq's on the front end.
Usually - the older the better - simple design - switches still work - hardy any cap's - class A etc etc.

My Quadeight is 42 years old and the stepped switches still work really well - Ive had it for 11 years and it's been used almost every day and night for the last 12 years
My Electrodyne711's are nearly 50 years old and they sound better than most of the vintage gear I've ever heard - And better than anything new that I have experienced.

I'm sure this is well known, but there is a school of thought with some engineers that using all the same (great quality) preamps for a song gets an improvement in the consistency of the final mix. All neve or all API, Helios, Electrodyne, whatever. Although even these engineers might have a special pre for vox or bass. I am heading in this direction sort of by default because of the gear i have ended up with. Maybe it's old school?

[rick]

so we all good ?done and dusted ?back on the trm forum track?
Lights off At the clubhouse?
Imagine what it was like at copenhagen today!

If anybody assumes I really like acting like a pompous arsed school principal
they assume wrong
On the bright Side at least I didn't have to lock anything or edit anybody today

a really important part of my mastering console blew up last night I had to blow 2 grand worth of work into the ether
I had two hours sleep and I spent the day with a soldering iron in one hand and harrassing Rob on the phone for blind man bluff tech advice with the other

I opened a few cans to drink tonight for the first time in years
strange days indeed
merry Christmas :)

[musikwerks]

Chris, I think that's the way to go... it's how I do it mostly because I use the console at whatever studio I'm tracking at. I did an album once at Milkbar (now Electric Ave) on the Neve and everything went through that desk to tools. Sure we added some external eq here and there but all pre's were from the Neve. I had a tight budget and new I needed to set myself up for a no-problem mix. Worked a treat I think.

Someone also to me once that the phase coherence is better when all sources are tracked through the same sources. I'm not tech based but they mentioned that each pre/eq/comp has it's own signal path that may or may not be longer or shorter than another. Does that sound right?

btw Rick.... I was clearing out some old boxes and found a shirt I bought a while back but have not been able to wear for obvious reasons. It says "F$#k off, I'm mixing."

I'll drop it round on Monday. Merry Christmas!

[The Tasmanian]

Hey Kristian
I have wondered about the phase thing in the past - But I have tracked so many albums now using all types of Pre's and never had a problem - especially using direct outs. I doubt that any delay is enough to affect the phase using direct out as the signal path is short. Even if there was some tiny micro micro delay between pre's, I would still do it as I love the flavour of different pre's on different sources and also believe that when one mixes, you are getting one flavour at the mix stage - so variations in flavour on the way in is good.
Also - If there was a phase difference on preamps - Imagine what is happening when we mix - going through external EQ's , compressors etc - there would be more problems in the mix stage with phase

[heathen]

Hey Kristian
I have wondered about the phase thing in the past - But I have tracked so many albums now using all types of Pre's and never had a problem - especially using direct outs. I doubt that any delay is enough to affect the phase using direct out as the signal path is short. Even if there was some tiny micro micro delay between pre's, I would still do it as I love the flavour of different pre's on different sources and also believe that when one mixes, you are getting one flavour at the mix stage - so variations in flavour on the way in is good.
Also - If there was a phase difference on preamps - Imagine what is happening when we mix - going through external EQ's , compressors etc - there would be more problems in the mix stage with phase

Was wondering this myself too, I using different chains of plugins can do some really rotten stuff in this regard to me (probably because some plugs don't report latency properly), but using different analog chains does'nt seem to bother me.

[eek!]

Maybe because I've worked almost exclusively on classical multi-mic projects recently, I tend to obsess with keeping everything in the chain consistent, to the point where I'm making sure mic cable lengths are identical on stereo pairs. Its not quite the same as choosing colour for each individual instrument, like you would in rock, its an overall sound thing. I want all my mics to have the same colour so the parts will form a whole. I like using one good pre or desk, one choice of reverb etc. Classical tends to attract the compulsive! (we're all obsessive ;-)
...
Eve.

[Kurt]

Electricity moves at the spped of light, somewhat faster than the speed of sound. I can't see any cable length or analogue circuit length differences affecting phasing at all. I have read that in modern CPU design trace lengths matter, but they're operating in Ghz ranges not Khz.

Having said that I don't really go much on the idea of multiple different pre's etc as a matter of course. When I get rich I'll buy one nice desk rather than a tupperware container full of mismatched clones.

[musikwerks]

Would be interesting to look at the waveforms in Tools. Same mic split into various signal chains. See who arrives first.

[The Tasmanian]

Eve - I can imagine a pair of stereo mic's having the same cable length in a classical recording as important - but with a largeish orchestra (especially with percussion added), there is more of a problem with delays than phase. Thats why 2 mic's on Orchestra and a couple of spot mics is the bomb - the more mics - more problems

[Sammas]

Electricity moves at the spped of light, somewhat faster than the speed of sound. I can't see any cable length or analogue circuit length differences affecting phasing at all. I have read that in modern CPU design trace lengths matter, but they're operating in Ghz ranges not Khz.

.

I'm no expert on the matter, but electricity doesn't move at light speed. In many cases, quite far from it (millimetres per day)!! In audio gear, it is a measurement of travel of the electrons. This is dependent on the current (amps), charge within the material (like copper wire, measured in Coulombs), etc. The number of free electrons, the density of the metal they flow though, etc, etc.

I think you'll find that electricity (in most cases associated with this forum) will actually flow more like the hour hand on clock than the speed of light... and in most cases (because it's AC) it will just be doing the slow dance back and forth.

I'm sure Rob or someone more knowledgeable could chime in with a more scientific explanation.

Having said that I don't really go much on the idea of multiple different pre's etc as a matter of course. When I get rich I'll buy one nice desk rather than a tupperware container full of mismatched clones.

Perfect phase correlation is a myth. It's the phase discrepancies that create space, etc in a mix. When you stereo mic something, you are deliberately introducing musical phase discrepancies. I personally wouldn't fuss with the electronic grounds of things. Use the mono button. If it sounds good it is good...

[musikwerks]

Interesting.

One guy I mix with time/sample aligns all of the drum tracks so the tom hit (for example) arrives at the same time in the overheads as it does through the tom mic. There's a definite difference looking at the waveforms.

[Bent my VU]

Interesting.

One guy I mix with time/sample aligns all of the drum tracks so the tom hit (for example) arrives at the same time in the overheads as it does through the tom mic. There's a definite difference looking at the waveforms.

Glad I wasn't paying for that session.

[rob]

stop thinking about this stuff....

go write a good song

or

capture an inspired performance

forget about electrons

[13thbeach]

Can the song be about electrons?

[rob]

only if you can dance to it!

[rob]

angus....see my post above

in the meantime have a think about what you mean by "speed"

'cause in your questions above it isn't defined and therefore can't be answered

ask the right question and your 90% of the way there

[musikwerks]

Glad I wasn't paying for that session.

It only took about 5 minutes per song. Use the Snare as the reference and drag the o/h's to line up.

[Mark Bassett]

Chribble,

Can you please put your real name in your signature at the bottom of your posts.

Thanks

[eek!]

Eve - I can imagine a pair of stereo mic's having the same cable length in a classical recording as important - but with a largeish orchestra (especially with percussion added), there is more of a problem with delays than phase. Thats why 2 mic's on Orchestra and a couple of spot mics is the bomb - the more mics - more problems

The best results I've had mix wise have been using multiple pairs of mics. It gives you all kinds of ambiance options. I really like this for classical vocal work because you want to be able to draw out qualities of the voice from the orchestra. That's a preference of mine, mainly because I'm a singer as well ;)

[Mac]

The best results I've had mix wise have been using multiple pairs of mics.

Hi Eve

Yes I second the notion of having more pairs up than you know you will use. I just tracked three ensembles last week in a church (next to a main road - not good).

Even though I had 8 tracks down, the final mix only used 4 or 5 plus some verb dialed in....

On one track, I had one of those heavy choppers go overhead (which I missed on the day - but the mics didn't!!)...ended up relying only on the close mics and discarded all the rooms on that track, which was sad...

I seem to notice more issues of "phase" with multiple tracks of strong sources like oboe, clarinet, piano etc.....somehow you get away with more on violin, viola etc... I havent had any experiences of cable runs affecting the image - (but maybe my microphones arent closely matched enough to start with!!)

simple is always better - good outboard eq - nice clean pres KISS....

Mac.

[The Tasmanian]

Hey Angus
I think some people get speed mixed up with slew rate - Somebody please correct me if I am wrong -
Thats why I find some pre's are crap on kik drum - the electronics effects the attack of the signal - (how the components deal with a sudden burst of audio)
Also that is what makes a great studio amp too - the slew rate (plus the sound quality obviously)
Rob - I think this is an important discussion

[Linear]

Quoting Steve Dove:

"Slew Rate is the speed (measured usually in V/µs) that an amplifier output shifts at when a step source of extremely high speed is applied to the input. All the early generation opamps had slew rates in the order of 0.5V/µS which by todays standards does not bear mentioning in polite company, but no-one really new much better then."

So 'slew rate' is the speed at which an amplifier can respond on it's output to transients - the higher the slew rate (eg a 5534 has a slew rate of 13V/µS) the 'faster' the amplifier is.

but i'm with rob on this - who cares? listen to how the pre is responding to transients. if it sounds like there is a compressor with a fast attack over it (or more to the point, a transient designer with the attack dialled out), then try a different pre. if you can't hear the difference, then you just shouldn't worry about it. note that many of the the 'vintage, man' preamps have relatively slow slew rates, which is why people like them.

Chris

[Linear]

and by the way angas, I wouldn't bother quoting gearslutz here. that forum is a festering hive of misinformation frequented mainly by people who don't actually make music for a living, but hack about regurgitating other peoples myths and bullsh!t like they know something.

relying on gearslutz for information isn't going to do your career or studio any favours. and yes, this is just my opinion.

Chris

[Mac]

I think it is very useful to get a handle on the topology of a pre - which may help to make decisions about which pre to try first. (obviously your ears then may need to over-ride the selection)....

But, wouldnt an opamp slewing only be part of the picture. I would have though that overall topology, output transformers etc would equally impact the way a pre deals with transient details and presents the signal???



Mac

[Linear]

Just on phase, if I could nerd-out for a moment and bust a myth that I read once on that great encyclopedia of public audio knowledge, better known as gearslutz.

some people like to keep mic cables the same length in order to maintain phase relationships (impedence is another issue).

The speed of sound is roughly 343 metres/second. So it would take roughly 2.915 milliseconds for a sound wave to propagate 1 metre through the air.

The speed of electricity on the other hand (or more to the point, the propogation speed of an AC signal through a conductor, not the speed of the electrons) is about 60-80% the speed of light depending on the conductor. If we assume 60%, that's around 179,875,474 metres/second through a mic lead.

SO, to match the time taken for the sound wave to propogate 1 metre through air, you would need a mic cable roughly 524 kilometers long. Or to put it another way, 5.2 kilometers of mic lead for every centimetre you move the mic.

Using similar-length mic leads to maintain phase? Absolutely not necessary. This probably explains too why there is zero latency through analogue outboard gear, it just isn't a factor.

Chris

[The Tasmanian]

Chris - this is good info.
I don't care about cable length or supposed mic pre delay - but I think it is valid to discuss slew rate so that others can understand why some pre's are soggy in attack.

[The Tasmanian]

while we are on the subject,
a few years ago I tracked a album that was mixed by the guy who mixes Coldplay (Yuk!)
Anyway - this guy bought new patch cables into the mix - not sure what they were made of - but this guy insists that he runs audio through the cables for 24 hours before he uses them to "run them in"
He probably charged the client for that too - he charged $450,000.00 pounds to mix the album!!!!!!!!!!!! (cost about 8k Aus to record)
No wonder Coldplay are so boring.

[rob]

Chris T...sorry I didn't mean to be dismissive ...oh heck, maybe just a little bit. But then again i was confused about the preceeding discussion of "speed".

One minute we are talking about the speed of electrons in copper wire, the next we are talking about slew rate...

So far we have an opinion that electrons travel at the speed of light and another that they move at a snails pace.

now, this could be a very interesting discusion but really has nothing to do with audio, nor even if you should use mic cables of the same length for a stereo pair of mics.
For all intents and purposes electricity travel at the speed of light down your mic cable. And by this I mean that a signal poked in one end pops out the other end just under the time it would take a light to travel that distance. This is very fast, you won't know the difference between a mic cable 10m long to one 1km long.

What you might notice with longer cables is the effect of cable capacitance. This can cause high freq attenuation and slew rate distortion. But you really do need long cables or high impedance circuits for this to be an issue.

One handy thing to mention for those who don't know it, is that past articles from my Audio Technology articles are, thanks to AT, available here : http://proharmonic.com/articles.htm

if interested; reading the article on preamps, transformers and the article in the most recent issue on amplifier design might shed some light on questions around this topic.

and ... I'm always keen to hear about the bits I missed covering, got wrong or made no sense on.

Slew rate is one of those things that some designers obsess over, and in some situations can be important, then again some preamps with quite low slew rates can be just the ticket in some applications.

Whilst understand the design toplogy behind a preamp can be interesting or even illuminating, I'm not convinced that you could pick the right preamp for a particular job by looking at the schematic and specs....maybe you can, but I somehow think that you know what is the right preamp for the job through sheer hard won experience and experimentation.

This doesn't make it easier for the newcomer

[The Tasmanian]

It took me many years of wondering why Kik drums sounded soggy on some mic pre's - I kept wondering why some pre's sound amazing on almost everything - except kik drum - until a tech informed me of slew rate.
So I think it is good for others to try their different pre's on kiks and see which pre has the fastest attack (or use soundreplacer and dont worry about it.....)
I think this has been a good discussion for those who do not know about all this stuff
Get to know your pre's attack response!

[Mac]

"my Audio Technology articles are, thanks to AT, available here : http://proharmonic.com/articles.htm"


Hey excellent Rob.....my two year old has ripped the front covers off most of my old issues - makes finding articles a challenge!