Condensing my gear in a small hobby studio wanting to get a good mic preamp. Running Pro Tools Digi 002. Using Rode and Valves and non valve mics.
What mic pre amps can you suggest so its an all purpose use it on anything type deal so I only have to buy one for life?
Thanks
I am still a new user so I am sorry if it sounds a little "unforumish".
Thanks
Dale
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Focusrite ISA430MkII or Amek Channel in a Box
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Focusrite ISA430MkII or Amek Channel in a Box
by HA_DA_JA » Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:21 am
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HA_DA_JA - Valued Contributor
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by HA_DA_JA » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:09 pm
I guess it doesnt have to have digital in and outs - if that is what you mean-
I am not sure about the flavour thing?
How do I find out what type of flavours are out there?
And I know tubes colour the sound but wouldn't you really want it to be neutral so you can add your own flavour/colour?
I saw a DBX 376 unit going for reasonable price but who determines or what determines the "value" of the unit whther it is good or not?
All these questions?
Thanks
Dale
I am not sure about the flavour thing?
How do I find out what type of flavours are out there?
And I know tubes colour the sound but wouldn't you really want it to be neutral so you can add your own flavour/colour?
I saw a DBX 376 unit going for reasonable price but who determines or what determines the "value" of the unit whther it is good or not?
All these questions?
Thanks
Dale
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HA_DA_JA - Valued Contributor
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- Location: Brisbane
by chris p » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:50 pm
Hi Dale
It a question of money vs colouration vs functionality vs workability. Lets dispel some myths first.
(1) There is no preamp that does absolutely everything. Not even the legendary Neve 1073.
(2) Colour is nice, but so is clarity. Remember that colouration, even nice sounding, is still distortion, and too much will muddy the mix. Its easy to get esoteric here, talking 2nd harmonic vs tube saturation - don't get technical, but just remember sonic colour is like Mars Bars - great in moderation.
(3) Buy once and have it for life? To a degree, good quality audio does stay around. The difficulty is knowing which units will mature well. Studios threw away their Neumann U47's in the 1980's for a reason - they were high maintenance, noisy, expensive to repair and generally more trouble than they were worth. The point is that U47's are gold today because all the dodgy ones (like 90%) were chucked out. And even today, there are many U47's that don't exhibit the U47 "sound". So lower the expectation here - you'll be buying a good preamp that gives return on your investment, not necessarily one that will last for life. That's not the nature of electronic goods.
(4) Functionality is important, especially in a hobby studio. How many mic pres do you need to do what you want to do? How many need phantom power? Would you be better off getting a small desk? All this is just as important as the sound (and don't flame me for this guys) because a great sounding preamp that is not used or useful is a doorstop.
Where does all this lead? The buying skill is to buy to give yourself recording options. Having the choice, and knowing when to use what, is true engineer's skill.
What I don't yet understand is where you get the money to do BOTH SAE and gear acquisition, you do seem to be in a bit a of a rush for all this. Could I suggest you slow down a bit? From my experience of both wasting money and saving money, try this -
(1) Write a 1 sentence mission statement for your studio. What are you going to record? Mine is something like "A DAW based mobile recording setup in a contained 10U rack aimed at demo and audition CDs, schools and churches". (10U because that's the biggest that fits in my car!) See how this constrains things already? Fragile gear is out, ultra-expensive gear is out (I'm sorry, but you don't use a Wagner U47 to record in a school auditorium where kids knock over the mic stands - hey, I mentioned the Wagner U47 - do I get a freebie Otto?) Also, the 10U rack has got to include enough preamps to record flexibly as well as DI's, line ins, AD/DA, headphone monitoring etc - so every rack space must count.
(2) Start up some nice software that lets you paste images and insert text. Word is fine, but there are plenty of others. Now find the images off the web of your existing gear, and paste them into this "pretend" studio. Don't forget to include your mics as well. Include any physical constraints (like my 10U above).
(3) Cruise the web looking at all available preamps - start off at a megastore like Sweetwater, but also go looking at places like Sebatron, JLM, Mercenary, Manley, Grace, Avalon, Summit Audio, and the most recent Neve signature products. Read the reviews. If one grabs your fancy, drag its image into your pretend studio. Do the same with the other gear (including mics) you will need to fulfill your studio mission.
(4) Sometimes lesser gear is better than WOW gear. Opamp gear gets bagged a lot, but its not opamps per se that are the problem - its cheap opamps that distort badly outside a limited dynamic range. Cheap tubes can do the same - just because its tube does not mean its euphonic.
(5) OK, how's it looking? Does all the gear fit together nicely? Do you have more preamps than you have mics to plug into them? Are you within budget? Does it give flexibility? Does it fulfill your mission? The goal is not boast factor but the best sound within the constraints of what you are trying to achieve.
(6) Now the hard bit. Sit on it for at least a week. By all means visit it daily and drool, but leave it to settle. Now, does it still work for you or was it just flash attack? Go back to step 3 and design another pretend studio.
(7) When the pretend studio hasn't changed for a month, you're getting close. You know what you want to buy, but more particularly you know WHY you want to buy it and what it adds to your set up. You also know the current eBay price so will not get fleeced as a newbie at your friendly music store. You also know what you do NOT want to buy and why it wouldn't work for you.
The thing is, the F/rite 428 and Amek CiB are both nice, but radically different, things. Ones a multi-channel preamp (with nice variable impedance) whereas the other is a single channel preamp/eq/comp, more like a desk channel. Its not a case of one or the other. In fact, you may end up with both, or neither. That's why I'd suggest enjoying the thrill of a cheap pretend studio to work out for yourself which piece of gear will take you furthest down the road.
Man, what a huge,opinionated post. Sorry folks.
It a question of money vs colouration vs functionality vs workability. Lets dispel some myths first.
(1) There is no preamp that does absolutely everything. Not even the legendary Neve 1073.
(2) Colour is nice, but so is clarity. Remember that colouration, even nice sounding, is still distortion, and too much will muddy the mix. Its easy to get esoteric here, talking 2nd harmonic vs tube saturation - don't get technical, but just remember sonic colour is like Mars Bars - great in moderation.
(3) Buy once and have it for life? To a degree, good quality audio does stay around. The difficulty is knowing which units will mature well. Studios threw away their Neumann U47's in the 1980's for a reason - they were high maintenance, noisy, expensive to repair and generally more trouble than they were worth. The point is that U47's are gold today because all the dodgy ones (like 90%) were chucked out. And even today, there are many U47's that don't exhibit the U47 "sound". So lower the expectation here - you'll be buying a good preamp that gives return on your investment, not necessarily one that will last for life. That's not the nature of electronic goods.
(4) Functionality is important, especially in a hobby studio. How many mic pres do you need to do what you want to do? How many need phantom power? Would you be better off getting a small desk? All this is just as important as the sound (and don't flame me for this guys) because a great sounding preamp that is not used or useful is a doorstop.
Where does all this lead? The buying skill is to buy to give yourself recording options. Having the choice, and knowing when to use what, is true engineer's skill.
What I don't yet understand is where you get the money to do BOTH SAE and gear acquisition, you do seem to be in a bit a of a rush for all this. Could I suggest you slow down a bit? From my experience of both wasting money and saving money, try this -
(1) Write a 1 sentence mission statement for your studio. What are you going to record? Mine is something like "A DAW based mobile recording setup in a contained 10U rack aimed at demo and audition CDs, schools and churches". (10U because that's the biggest that fits in my car!) See how this constrains things already? Fragile gear is out, ultra-expensive gear is out (I'm sorry, but you don't use a Wagner U47 to record in a school auditorium where kids knock over the mic stands - hey, I mentioned the Wagner U47 - do I get a freebie Otto?) Also, the 10U rack has got to include enough preamps to record flexibly as well as DI's, line ins, AD/DA, headphone monitoring etc - so every rack space must count.
(2) Start up some nice software that lets you paste images and insert text. Word is fine, but there are plenty of others. Now find the images off the web of your existing gear, and paste them into this "pretend" studio. Don't forget to include your mics as well. Include any physical constraints (like my 10U above).
(3) Cruise the web looking at all available preamps - start off at a megastore like Sweetwater, but also go looking at places like Sebatron, JLM, Mercenary, Manley, Grace, Avalon, Summit Audio, and the most recent Neve signature products. Read the reviews. If one grabs your fancy, drag its image into your pretend studio. Do the same with the other gear (including mics) you will need to fulfill your studio mission.
(4) Sometimes lesser gear is better than WOW gear. Opamp gear gets bagged a lot, but its not opamps per se that are the problem - its cheap opamps that distort badly outside a limited dynamic range. Cheap tubes can do the same - just because its tube does not mean its euphonic.
(5) OK, how's it looking? Does all the gear fit together nicely? Do you have more preamps than you have mics to plug into them? Are you within budget? Does it give flexibility? Does it fulfill your mission? The goal is not boast factor but the best sound within the constraints of what you are trying to achieve.
(6) Now the hard bit. Sit on it for at least a week. By all means visit it daily and drool, but leave it to settle. Now, does it still work for you or was it just flash attack? Go back to step 3 and design another pretend studio.
(7) When the pretend studio hasn't changed for a month, you're getting close. You know what you want to buy, but more particularly you know WHY you want to buy it and what it adds to your set up. You also know the current eBay price so will not get fleeced as a newbie at your friendly music store. You also know what you do NOT want to buy and why it wouldn't work for you.
The thing is, the F/rite 428 and Amek CiB are both nice, but radically different, things. Ones a multi-channel preamp (with nice variable impedance) whereas the other is a single channel preamp/eq/comp, more like a desk channel. Its not a case of one or the other. In fact, you may end up with both, or neither. That's why I'd suggest enjoying the thrill of a cheap pretend studio to work out for yourself which piece of gear will take you furthest down the road.
Man, what a huge,opinionated post. Sorry folks.
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chris p - Frequent Contributor
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Very Helpful !!
by HA_DA_JA » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 pm
Wow where do you get the time to reply to all these questions. Can I adopt you?
A bit of background detail.
I am a hoarder. I am a fanatic at researching articles on gear that I might want. Which obviously makes you want to buy it when you look at it enough so you try to sell things off to get it.
I started collecting stuff when I was single and had more money. I now have a wife and kid and am trying to hold a job while studying part time at SAE so my buying has really slowed down.
Going to SAE dispelled all my knowledge about what I thought audio actually was. I come form a church background where everyone thinks they know the ins and outs of music so you seems to adopt a lot of mis-information.
But without being too mean, SAE is more of a business venture for the owner than a true audio school. But finding the balance between runnning a business and providing effective education I guess is a skill that is always a WIP for SAE (Bit like different varying rates for different studios).
So now I am getting rid of gear to buy useful stuff.
I picked up a 1176LN (G model I think) 2 years ago and I need the plastic VU housing fixed and maybe get it serviced Any recommendations??
Your idea of mock rack makes total sense, I guess the hardest part is how do I fit my keyboards, drums and guitar rigs in the scenario ?
Just joking.
But I think the hardest part for me will be working out what my mission statement is...what do I want todo... where do I want to go... do I want to make any money out of it (maybe fat chance)...
I really do appreciate your input.
I guess using what I have and gaining experience on what I have is going to help me more than chasing the illusive golden all in one box.
I have just been offered a RED 6 so here we go I have to go and look up every article on the Red 6 before making another informed decision.
Forever wondering what it is all about
Dale
A bit of background detail.
I am a hoarder. I am a fanatic at researching articles on gear that I might want. Which obviously makes you want to buy it when you look at it enough so you try to sell things off to get it.
I started collecting stuff when I was single and had more money. I now have a wife and kid and am trying to hold a job while studying part time at SAE so my buying has really slowed down.
Going to SAE dispelled all my knowledge about what I thought audio actually was. I come form a church background where everyone thinks they know the ins and outs of music so you seems to adopt a lot of mis-information.
But without being too mean, SAE is more of a business venture for the owner than a true audio school. But finding the balance between runnning a business and providing effective education I guess is a skill that is always a WIP for SAE (Bit like different varying rates for different studios).
So now I am getting rid of gear to buy useful stuff.
I picked up a 1176LN (G model I think) 2 years ago and I need the plastic VU housing fixed and maybe get it serviced Any recommendations??
Your idea of mock rack makes total sense, I guess the hardest part is how do I fit my keyboards, drums and guitar rigs in the scenario ?
Just joking.
But I think the hardest part for me will be working out what my mission statement is...what do I want todo... where do I want to go... do I want to make any money out of it (maybe fat chance)...
I really do appreciate your input.
I guess using what I have and gaining experience on what I have is going to help me more than chasing the illusive golden all in one box.
I have just been offered a RED 6 so here we go I have to go and look up every article on the Red 6 before making another informed decision.
Forever wondering what it is all about
Dale
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HA_DA_JA - Valued Contributor
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by rick » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:32 am
sounds like good information chris
this is the reason i have this forum so i dont feel like i have to right essays about micpres to everybody who wants some new gear every time i log on !
neither of the two mention pres are on my i would own list
however most of chris's blurt is much more usable stuff to take in
you will probably find like all of us, your just going to end up buying a bunch of things untill you find whats fits
mission statements...?
i wish somebody told me about them 20 years ago
i thought always they were something to do with the space shuttle
this is the reason i have this forum so i dont feel like i have to right essays about micpres to everybody who wants some new gear every time i log on !
neither of the two mention pres are on my i would own list
however most of chris's blurt is much more usable stuff to take in
you will probably find like all of us, your just going to end up buying a bunch of things untill you find whats fits
mission statements...?
i wish somebody told me about them 20 years ago
i thought always they were something to do with the space shuttle
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rick - Moderator
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by chris p » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:03 am
Thanks Rick
Your mission statement is the easiest to write ...
"Whatever it takes to be the best mastering facility in Australia".
Hmm, notice the complete absence of compromise in that line? Compared to mine? That's why you're the guy and I'm not!
Your mission statement is the easiest to write ...
"Whatever it takes to be the best mastering facility in Australia".
Hmm, notice the complete absence of compromise in that line? Compared to mine? That's why you're the guy and I'm not!
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chris p - Frequent Contributor
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by davemc » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:59 am
I will add as spillage form the other thread. It depends on what your doing. I would look at second hand if you can a lot of pre amps are poping up locally the last few years.
It all has to do with what you want sound wise and how many channels you need and the $'s you have. Again there are a lot of stuff out there.
It all has to do with what you want sound wise and how many channels you need and the $'s you have. Again there are a lot of stuff out there.
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2 years on!
by HA_DA_JA » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:10 am
Wow looking back at this thread 2 years ago is like a reading page out of your diary entry of your life.
• I have finished the course at SAE.
• I have not ended up doing Audio as my main occupation, but I have done some paid work in the audio arena that I am proud of and a lot more free work that I have also immensely enjoyed and got album credits for.
I just found out I won a gold award in the mixing of a local track. I did this for a dance group who entered a local competition. This was a nice feeling that someone appreciated your work.
As to my previous post about buying gear over the last 2 years I guess the classified section here shows my activity in that area.
I have bought some keepers and I have bought a lot of sellers that did not suit what I was after. Boy have I learnt a lot in that area.
It does not take long to realise that there is always going to be more gear that you desparately need.
I am very thankful for a wife that keeps it all in perspective and gently reminds me when the scales have tipped to far out of balance.
Now that I realise I am not going to "Rule the World", it makes it easier to buy gear. I dont have to have it all !
The idea in real estate of only buying a good property and not selling it seems to be good here. Save up and buy a piece of good gear (usually expensive thats why it is good) and it should serve you rather well for life.
I have also found that there is an important term called "UPKEEP" everything after a while has to be maintained and it all costs money.
So now actually having less gear can cost you less than having more gear than you actually need. EG. $200 to fix a broken VU meter in a 1176LN. Mind you the $200 also included calibration and a some extra leads so I am very happy the service..
SO what is all this rant about?
Actually nothing in particular, I was just interested to read over my old posts and see where I am at now.
I wonder where I will be in another 2 years?
• I have finished the course at SAE.
• I have not ended up doing Audio as my main occupation, but I have done some paid work in the audio arena that I am proud of and a lot more free work that I have also immensely enjoyed and got album credits for.
I just found out I won a gold award in the mixing of a local track. I did this for a dance group who entered a local competition. This was a nice feeling that someone appreciated your work.
As to my previous post about buying gear over the last 2 years I guess the classified section here shows my activity in that area.
I have bought some keepers and I have bought a lot of sellers that did not suit what I was after. Boy have I learnt a lot in that area.
It does not take long to realise that there is always going to be more gear that you desparately need.
I am very thankful for a wife that keeps it all in perspective and gently reminds me when the scales have tipped to far out of balance.
Now that I realise I am not going to "Rule the World", it makes it easier to buy gear. I dont have to have it all !
The idea in real estate of only buying a good property and not selling it seems to be good here. Save up and buy a piece of good gear (usually expensive thats why it is good) and it should serve you rather well for life.
I have also found that there is an important term called "UPKEEP" everything after a while has to be maintained and it all costs money.
So now actually having less gear can cost you less than having more gear than you actually need. EG. $200 to fix a broken VU meter in a 1176LN. Mind you the $200 also included calibration and a some extra leads so I am very happy the service..
SO what is all this rant about?
Actually nothing in particular, I was just interested to read over my old posts and see where I am at now.
I wonder where I will be in another 2 years?
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HA_DA_JA - Valued Contributor
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by Thirteen » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:34 pm
Maybe get two good but inexpensive pre's, one super clean, and one colored in half rack sizes? I am assuming that you don't want to spend a fortune...
I have a Grace 101 pre which is clean, uncolored and precise, and they are not expensive. As a second colored option what about a Summit 2BA-221? you would then have 2 preamp flavours in 1 rack space with the addition of variable impedance on the Summit.
http://www.summitaudio.com/2ba-221-mic-line-module.htm
http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m101/m101.htm
This is just a suggestion as a starting point/concept, it is a relatively cheap way to have 2 types in 1 RU, but it all depends on how you like the sound of them. The Grace is pretty perfect when you don't want to hear the preamp at all.
I have a Grace 101 pre which is clean, uncolored and precise, and they are not expensive. As a second colored option what about a Summit 2BA-221? you would then have 2 preamp flavours in 1 rack space with the addition of variable impedance on the Summit.
http://www.summitaudio.com/2ba-221-mic-line-module.htm
http://www.gracedesign.com/products/m101/m101.htm
This is just a suggestion as a starting point/concept, it is a relatively cheap way to have 2 types in 1 RU, but it all depends on how you like the sound of them. The Grace is pretty perfect when you don't want to hear the preamp at all.
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by TimS » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:47 pm
Dale,
You can always have a look over at Mixmasters..
Some nice gear there as well..
I got my Auditronics 110A's from Proharmonic/Broadcast as well..
Robs own mic pre might be something you might be interested in..
http://www.proharmonic.com/products.htm - scroll to the second last item on the page..
You can always have a look over at Mixmasters..
Some nice gear there as well..
I got my Auditronics 110A's from Proharmonic/Broadcast as well..
Robs own mic pre might be something you might be interested in..
http://www.proharmonic.com/products.htm - scroll to the second last item on the page..
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2 years on
by HA_DA_JA » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:59 pm
Everything is good. I have plenty of Preamps now - possible too much as is always the case with me.
I was just reflecting with my last post how after, 2 years on your perspective on things can change.
Thanks for the suggestions I wish you all well.
Cheers
Dale
I was just reflecting with my last post how after, 2 years on your perspective on things can change.
Thanks for the suggestions I wish you all well.
Cheers
Dale
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HA_DA_JA - Valued Contributor
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by chris p » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:38 pm
Crickey - I was an opinionated, talkative so-and-so 2 years ago, wasn't I?
Actually, I remember that original post (and at my time of life, remembering anything is a bonus).
Actually, I remember that original post (and at my time of life, remembering anything is a bonus).
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chris p - Frequent Contributor
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by astrovic » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:29 pm
That was a great post, Chris, I'm going to chew on it for a while (not just for music stuff, also for work stuff generally).
Thanks for pulling this thread back up, Ha Da Ja - interesting to see where you're at now.
I have immense difficulty accepting the fact that I do not need a couple of everything. Sounds like my journey to enlightenment is only beginning.
Thanks for pulling this thread back up, Ha Da Ja - interesting to see where you're at now.
I have immense difficulty accepting the fact that I do not need a couple of everything. Sounds like my journey to enlightenment is only beginning.
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by rick » Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:55 pm
my advise has not changed much
buy everything you can afford and a bunch of stuff you cannot ,
sell off what you dont like / use untill you find yourself back were you started
but not asking those questions anymore
now you will be answering them!
buy everything you can afford and a bunch of stuff you cannot ,
sell off what you dont like / use untill you find yourself back were you started
but not asking those questions anymore
now you will be answering them!
Last edited by rick on Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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