Getting good sound from a live "deathcore" gig

[Mickstape]

Yep, deathcore, the realm of angry youth windmilling their arms and throwing themselves about while screaming incoherently.

This w/end just passed i did FOH and staging for a youth week thing up my way <GOATS> and i had the misfortune to be subjected to this mess of distortion and high wattage amplifiers on max-ear fatigue mode for about 8 hours straight.

What i'd like to ask is when you are doing sets like these, does anyone else find it hard to get some decent clean separation between the dueling rhythm and lead guitars?

i mean i tried panning, compression, serious eq cuts on channel strips, making them turn their amps down to at least 8 for one song but i swear i couldnt get the sound i wanted.

i should elaborate a little about the stage and location, space was a premium so the stage <cabana> itself was a little over 6x5m, i had the foh pa <kv2 EV>which i may add about 2m away from sidestage.

so yes the question is what does one do in this situation. Im thinking that you can't really do all that much due to the confines of the "stage".

And i'm going to get custom moulds this week, i can't believe that as a youth i listened to and played at high spl's like that and didnt realise what sort of damage you can do to your ears.

[Kurt]

I do this kind of stuff most weekends. Because of the volume on stage I am often just marginally adding to the volume of the guitars, the hard work is getting the drums and vocals over the line..

I tend to leave the eq flat, pan 50% each way (if there are two guitars) and push them up to unity. Often it's not so much about making the guitars louder but making them bigger/wider than the beam in front of the quad(s) and trying to get some mids back in them. Unless the amps are offensively bright or very bottom heavy (I always high pass, often pull out some more lows) I find that just supporting the sound that's already there works much better than trying to fight with it to get a "guitar tone" I like. Pulling highs out on the desk doesn't make a huge difference, much better if the band will listen to your suggestion to pull the tops down a bit on the amp.

I find most guys are happy to comply if I suggest they turn down/roll some tops off/pull out some 200 (bass players, the room is very boomy around 200) It's probably more down to people handling than sound handling, as with most things in this game!

[Ben M]

The issue starts at the source.
My remedy would be to pull all the amps in tight around the drum kit. Don't let them spread across stage like most young bands like to do. Some bands think their playing the Ent. Cent when given a decent size stage.
Spreading out on stage gives them the excuse to turn up. If the guitar amps are pulled in tight around the kit, foldback is made easier and this can help the band set lower amp levels and play tighter together without struggling to hear the other guitar on the other side of the stage.
Remember you are the sound engineer and they need to listen to you about their on stage sound so they can sound better out front.

:)

[jkhuri44]

And i'm going to get custom moulds this week, i can't believe that as a youth i listened to and played at high spl's like that and didnt realise what sort of damage you can do to your ears.

99% of live sound sounds like white noise to me...especially since i have hyperacusis... customs are a must!!!

[Chris H]

I did a regular show like this at the Castle in Dandenong , 5 or 6 bands each night etc...and used to have a chat to the bands before they set up. I was pleasantly surprised at how ready most were to accept my suggestions. As most of the guitarists used a quad box i would start my rant with a history lesson from the old fella :) ......Quad boxes were designed for a time when only vox was in the FOH, as they produce a sealed beam of sound so standing in front of the amp, all you will hear is guitar but move to the other side of the stage you will only hear the other guitarist bla bla bla. The solution for a big guitar sound in a balanced FOH mix is to leave "room" for some guitar in the foh etc as said by others. The next thing to mention is, before any bands arrived was to tune the monitors so a clear mix can be given on stage and for the on stage level to be workable for the muso's. Bottom end and low mids are critical here as a lot of this area gets in the on stage sound from the FOH. When the players feel the balance things sound bigger and louder. Other things like only the drum fill getting any guitar in the monitor help to keep it lower so vox can be a good level on stage. All bands want to sound as pro as they can so if they have confidence in their FOH mixer and think he/she is capable and on their side then more than half of the job is done.

[Mickstape]

@ Kurt, yeh i suggested to a few of the earlier bands that they do a little bit of cutting in the low end, but as soon as i walked away back to the mixer it went straight back up. kids think they know it all after jamming in a garage with two quads and a drumkit plus vocal foldback.

@Ben Moore, i'll keep that one in mind next time its a smaller stage, although try telling a bunch of 16 year olds full of whatever it was they were on/into that its not about levels but about seperation, i got blank stares and as i mentioned as soon as my back was turned the dial was twisted back up. i didnt get the main mix past halfway for most of the day, it wasnt my pa and i wasnt deafening myself for the sake of the rot that was being played.

@jamil, <or anyone else> any suggestions on where the best place is to get them fitted. im on the CC but sydney or newy is fine. i've found a couple of mobs, ear-o-tech and earmold australia. these ones seem interesting http://www.earmold.com.au/Non-Electroni ... Pairs.html

@Chris, mate i tried my best in regards to all of your post, out of the 14 or 15 bands there was only three bands who didnt fall into the "death metal/hardcore" genre, these bands actually sounded great, one band called "LoveChild" which was like surf punk/reggae funk<think sublime> sounded amazing and i couldnt understand why they sounded good to me but the rest just sounded like a wash of drop d noise with double kicks pounding through at 170bpm. personal preference i guess.

Definitely at next years GOAT's and any other youth festival i get foh duty on from now on i will be having a chat with them before they even get their gear on stage, due to the quick turnover time of bands <5-8 minutes between> and the 20 minute sets i was flat out just moving mics, cables and setting up DI's etc.

maybe i'll stay away from that sort of music from now on, even though thats just dreaming thinking that way. work, unfortunately, is work is it not...

[Chris H]

.....definitley a tough job with quick changeovers, short sets and inexperienced players, and when all is said and done if the musos pull sounds that are shite there is a limit to what any foh mixer can do to rescue the situation. In the 60's it was wall of sound so maybe the live aplication to that for 2010 screamo bands is wall of noise.

[jkhuri44]

170 bux from Excellence in Hearing which is on George St in he City (Sydney)

cool bloke there too.

[Mickstape]

@jamil. cheers man, i'll check it out.

@chris. yeh i figured there was a limit to how much of a good sound i could pull. in your post the operative words were "shite" and "noise". that summed it up nicely.

[heathen]

Getting a decent foldback mix is crucial, otherwise the band will be constantly fighting to hear themselves, then they turn amps up too loud, then the singers scream louder than they should. All ends up shitty and noisey as said. Also unless you have decent parametric channel eq's there is only so much that can be done.

I remember mixing the support band for Ian Moss on his rig for a couple of nights, there were guys doing a separate foldback mix from the side of stage, was great and really easy to just be able to mix without worrying about foldback. Sounded really good too.

[Kurt]

I do metal 'coz I love it! I don't think "it's shite/noise" is the right frame of mind to go into it with and certainly not the one that will see you back next year ;)

[Chris H]

I do metal 'coz I love it! I don't think "it's shite/noise" is the right frame of mind to go into it with and certainly not the one that will see you back next year ;)

Good for you Kurt!
Just to clarify, i wasn't calling the genre shite / noise, i was referring to the sound inexperienced muso's can produce when their only experience is in the bedroom or garage and to clarify this i know great sounds can come from the bedroom the garage and metal bands. I always try to respect the muso/bands intent in the music they play but many inexperienced players just don't realize what sound they are getting and if they could hear what their sound is from the punters angle they would be re assessing what they are doing. When you have Closure In Moscow on stage just after a young band doing their firs gig with their pedals spewing white noise and their bass flooding the room with 350hz mud and mush, their vocalist on his knees NEXT to the monitor wedge bending forward and then pointing the mic into the one inch compression driver............

[Mickstape]

I do metal 'coz I love it! I don't think "it's shite/noise" is the right frame of mind to go into it with and certainly not the one that will see you back next year ;)

yeh sorry man, wasnt trying to down the whole metal genre, its just that it was really my first exposure to the whole screamo deal live and in your face. I used to be right into the deicide,pantera,slayer etc, still dig out some of the old cds an vinyl on occasion when i need to.

As for next year well i'm planning on being there, the company that handles the production side has had the contract from day dot, and i like working for old mate, so unless i f@#$ up seriously bad i should be able to be there next year. at least i'm prepped for it, sort of.

@chris - "a young band doing their firs gig with their pedals spewing white noise and their bass flooding the room with 350hz mud and mush, their vocalist on his knees NEXT to the monitor wedge bending forward and then pointing the mic into the one inch compression driver............"

mate were you there?..... thats exactly how some of the sets were....

[Kurt]

I guess the same can be said of any young/inexperienced band in any genre, the clever ones will perhaps take note of what older more experienced guys suggest :) It is true that young metalheads tend to be a bit overenthusiastic with the volume knob though (and the mid-scoop).

Some of my favourite scenarios:

Kid A has a 100+watt head/quad setup and Kenny (the poor kid) has a 30 watt solid state combo. Kid A wants to show off his awesomeness and Kenny can't keep up.

Johnny Rock Star - "Can I get more vocals in the foldback?"
Me - "Hear that squeal" It tells me that no, you can't have more foldback, in fact, if you keep pointing the mic at the horn I will be forced to give you less foldback."

James Hetfield Jr. - "I can't hear the vocals dude"
Me - "Perhaps it's 'coz your amp, 4 feet behind you, is turned up to 11?"

One time an experienced band played when I was just starting out, I had maybe 500 watts of basically vocal PA. They set up two full Marshall stacks, both on 10.

Me - "You might want to turn down a bit, I won't be able to keep up"
Fat guy - "That's your problem"

After the set:

Fat dude - "My missus said she couldn't hear the vocals"
Me - "No shit eh?"

I do metal 'coz I love it! I don't think "it's shite/noise" is the right frame of mind to go into it with and certainly not the one that will see you back next year ;)

Good for you Kurt!
Just to clarify, i wasn't calling the genre shite / noise, i was referring to the sound inexperienced muso's can produce when their only experience is in the bedroom or garage and to clarify this i know great sounds can come from the bedroom the garage and metal bands. I always try to respect the muso/bands intent in the music they play but many inexperienced players just don't realize what sound they are getting and if they could hear what their sound is from the punters angle they would be re assessing what they are doing. When you have Closure In Moscow on stage just after a young band doing their firs gig with their pedals spewing white noise and their bass flooding the room with 350hz mud and mush, their vocalist on his knees NEXT to the monitor wedge bending forward and then pointing the mic into the one inch compression driver............

[mylesgm]

I have to say I was spitting my dinner all over my computer screen! hilarious and precisely why I choose to rarely if ever do live gigs. I love these guys on the phone.... 'Aw, mate! got your number from son and so... got a gig this evening and the sound guys had pulled out (um, why?) and I heard you're great.... want a gig? Our band is excrementory grindfuckers and we rock hard!" "um... ah... let me see... I'm busy tonight in the studio... sorry I can't help...."

And yes I've had calls like that...


Will I ever do them? NO.

YMMV...hah!

[heathen]

So many guitarists are like that, only takes 1 person to ruin things,getting a decent balance between everything (except vox obviously) before even turning the pa up makes a big difference, dunno why some can't see that.

Also a lot who use fx units in the inserts on amps should level match each of the different sounds too, a lot don't and would'nt even know how too.

[Mickstape]

yep have to agree with Myles, that post was gold Kurt. even the missus had a good chuckle bout that last one, she said "thats just like that country club gig you did....and that guy was fat too" lol

in regards to your one Heath, thats normally what try for during soundcheck but due to the turnover time it just wasnt an option.

and i should say that i never knew those "Orange" heads and quads had so much oomph, if you need to piss the neighbours off then one of those puppies on 6 will really do the job.