producing/engineering/mixing angst

[mylesgm]

So I've been working on a project for awhile in the role of engineer. In the course of this process I've done lots of stuff that could be construed as co-productions. I've also mixed the upcoming single which will be launched within the fortnight. (I'm trying to be unspecific but This has really pissed me off.) We applied for a grant with me as engineer and mixer. We had an agreement (verbal but not under dispute) between the actual producer, the artist and myself. This agreement stated I would get paid on a deferred plan, I would receive a 'reasonable' points percentage and I would receive payment when the project was signed to a label.

Project was signed to a small label last year after I had done a large chunk of work. I received no payment. We received the grant and I finished the single about to be launched just before a trip overseas. The band booked a studio and recorded whilst I was away even though I had told them I was unavailable and this new session was not on the dates we had originally discussed.

I returned from overseas and now the artist and producer have decided to have the mixes done overseas and have also decided that the 'payment plan' will be $50 a week for the next 16 months!!! and further there will be no points on the album and the producer has tried to take mix credits (when he did nothing on the mix) and their reasoning for going overseas is that they don't like my mixes. Even though the producer wants to take at least co-mix credit for them.

Now I have received an email thanking me for my work and firing me from the rest of the project. Siting my unavailability, my poor work and my misunderstanding of their goals. This i completely disagree with but what my real beef is about is this.

There is a grant that has my reputation all over it and they received money to pay me or at the very least people within this community to make the album. That will now be done overseas and the community here will not benefit. Is there anything that can be done about this?
The initial agreement should also still stand and even though I have not recorded the sessions it seems to me that that was their problem and not mine. At the very least I should be getting points on the two signals I did engineer and mix and I should get paid in a more timely fashion than $50 a week for 16 months.

All in all I'm very pissed and don't see what my options are. Any thoughts or directions would be greatly appreciated. Commiserations too...

[jkhuri44]

bad mouth the fuckers...

easy...nothing travels faster than bad news!

that really sucks man, sorry to hear that :-(

[mark rachelle]

Myles try this

1. Take ten deep breaths
2. let go of all the drama and significance that you! yes you! and are creating
3. be aware that the communications you are getting them are hitting the fundumental human nerve that (i'm not good enough), and of course anyone that says or acts in this way to us, generates us pain and anger.
4. So be aware that this is just your ego and thoughts under threat, they are just emotions so relax and let them go
5. emotions are like weather, they come and go, and emotions are not who you are
6. you are whole, complete and perfect just as you are, there is nothing to fix in you or anyone else
7. people will do what people will do, your just going to have to take what you get
8. practice forgiveness everyday
9. concentrate your mind on the NOW, you are too concerned with what has happened and what might happen
10, be thankful, at least they are getting you a payment plan, that is extraordinary under these circumstances

hope this helps

[mylesgm]

Thanks Mark,

I'm pissed but I do hear you. The thing that really gets me is how shit people can be. There are so many better ways to handle this.
I do a lot of work and with many excellent artists who respect the work I do and are eager to keep working with me so these people can go jump. I guess what I want is what is my due and nothing more. There is nothing like working hard, then getting screwed over and watching those people go with their dreamy lives on the back of your hard work. Happened to me more than once...

Thanks Jamil, Man do I want to do that but its just not my style.

M

[jkhuri44]

haha i know, that wasnt really proper advice...

if i was more serious online, i would have suggested what mark said, I like you dont handle stuff like that in that way :-)

karma bites people like this on the arse....

[mylesgm]

I hate the idea of Karma. There are a lot of people out there who have been screwing others over for years and they walk on cloud 9 and the reverse is also true. Rupert Murdoch anybody? Not saying that those people are happy or whatever but neither are the people they do over. I prefer people (including myself) to be held accountable for our actions both personally and corporately.
I do know that already people are leaving that artist like a bubonic plague carrier but then there'll be others who fall under the spell... What really sucks is that she is really good.

[jkhuri44]

I hate the idea of Karma. There are a lot of people out there who have been screwing others over for years and they walk on cloud 9 and the reverse is also true. Rupert Murdoch anybody? Not saying that those people are happy or whatever but neither are the people they do over. I prefer people (including myself) to be held accountable for our actions both personally and corporately.
I do know that already people are leaving that artist like a bubonic plague carrier but then there'll be others who fall under the spell... What really sucks is that she is really good.

you can never be certain how people like this sleep at night :P

at least you and I can sleep titght! or at least i can...

[musikwerks]

If they received grant money with a condition being that you're the guy that does it then they have breached the terms of the grant. Contact whoever it was that put up the grant money and inform them that the job is now being taken overseas.

At least they will probably have to pay the grant money back.

But, a word to the wise.... never, ever, ever do a points or payment deal verbally. Never. I can't stress it enough. You walked right into that one.

[Chris H]

Best of luck with all this Myles, it's a real bastard when this shit happens. I think most of us have had this type of experience, and more than once. I think anger has it's place and is a fair and healthy response, but a reasoned response that can facilitate a win for you, the engineer is is hard to achieve when the anger is to the fore.
As for kama thats a whole diferent ball game sufice to say for many, they live seemingly untouched by the injustice they deal upon others......think for a moment about the original custodians of this fine continent.......and the widening injustice of income distribution in modern capitalism......oh and the bombs on the citizens of Iraque...whose got the f'n crude oil now fuckers? ( did i say that?).... if there is karmic justice then the only place i see it happening for many is in the next ( whatever it is ) life.
I suppose for most of us the aim is to do our best to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. After a few projects, many clients inevitably become friends and this is prime time for difficult situations to develop. Also there are some real nasty examples of rip off " human beings" who deliberatley manipulate the relationship, so i think it pays to have a few safeguards in place when also providing discounted or payment by arrangement deals to "strugling" artists ... (..... AKA potential assholes)

[Ausrock]

Myles,

Sorry to hear this, unfortunately, I don't have any words of wisdom to offer.

Can you please give me an idea of what "points" were on offer for this. I have been working on a project with a kinda similar deal but thinking back on it, the "points" on offer were probably too little.......this is all likely to be irrelevant now as I blew the project off a couple of nights ago over the guitarist who regardless of what he thinks of himself is a complete dickhead that I found impossible to want to work with.......what hurts me is that the singer is a very close friend and I think my response raised issues others in the band were trying to ignore.

Cheers,

[mylesgm]

yeah the problem occurs when the people in question become your friends and then screw you over with little or no regard for the amount of investment both in care and work. I'm sure we've all had this stuff happen and I've developed a great deal of patience, thick skin and a usually accurate radar set to jerks. But when a project becomes lucrative and screws me out of my just reward based on my work then I'm really pissed.

I'm speaking to Arts Victoria about this but I'm also wondering about the mechanical copyright ownership. I believe that until paid I actually own the physical recording of the material. what are peoples experiences with this?

M

[NYMo]

Hi there,

Rick...the time to jump into this thread is ......now :)

I can't offer you any advice Myles as i haven't been in the business that long...(just long enough to get ripped off)

I only do jobs ...50 percent up front..50 percent on handover of masters..not interested in points or any of that...but as I said, thats just me.

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[Linear]

Hi Myles,

Welcome to the music business! it can be nasty and dirty. Traditionally, the recording part is the 'least' dirty - as my friend Paul told me, it's at 'the head of the river, where the water is still clean'. If you think it's bad now, wait till more people get involved...

Retrospectively, there's no a great deal you can do. If there is nothing in writing, then a 'verbal' agreement is very hard to enforce as it becomes your word against theirs.

And I don't want to seem negative against you or your work, but a grant is rarely given on the strength of the engineer or studio, it's 95% artist and songs. So I don't think they would really care who ends up mixing it, or whether it's done in Australia or OS. So that's really moot if you asked me.

The fact that you're getting any money at all is good IMHO. Even though it's not much, it's something. As for points - there are ALWAYS points on an album, a point is merely a percentage of their net takings after expenses. The fact that they said no points are 'available' is like saying there is no potential for profit (which could also be true ;-0)

If you're not happy with it, then what I would do is draw up an invoice based on your involvement ~up to this point~ - send it to them and tell them this is what is required for you to 'release' the files/masters and sign away your contribution to the project. If they don't agree, then you could request that they do not have permission to use the files that you recorded (if they haven't paid, then you own them, but it's super-hard to enforce).

At worst, you could chalk it up as experience, hope that they make it big and that your name will be associated with it...

Chris

[Ausrock]

I should clarify (in my post) that the singer mate didn't do anything wrong, the issue was/is with the guitarist.......if you've seen the movie "Still Crazy", just think of Bill Nighy's role and you're part way there :-), although since my earlier post I've found out that according to the guitarist it was apparently all my fault, I wasn't inventive or prepared to experiment enough, the fact that the wannabe EVH can't stay in time seems to be of no importance ........anyways, the band are reverting to plan B, recording with someone who's name I wont mention here down on the Central Coast.

[Mickstape]

I'm speaking to Arts Victoria about this but I'm also wondering about the mechanical copyright ownership. I believe that until paid I actually own the physical recording of the material. what are peoples experiences with this?

M

as i have little to no professional experience in this matter i can only offer my condolences on this one, for what its worth it seems you've been asked to just bend over and take it without a word. and i feel for you man, i had the same thing done to me for a demo and subsequent EP for a certain band, that i actually forked out coin for to hire a console and mics etc, all i asked for was a tiny fiscal benefit and was told in no uncertain terms that because it wasnt in writing it wasnt valid. i kept the mixes and originals and am still being hounded for them. my favourite response was and still is "how does f@#$ off sound" and it always puts a smile n my face when i hang up the phone.

although you seem to have hit the nail on the head with the bit i've quoted above, to my knowledge you do own the mechanical copyright and will do so until you are paid for your work. but having said that, as chris mentioned it could get real messy -

CHRIS"If you're not happy with it, then what I would do is draw up an invoice based on your involvement ~up to this point~ - send it to them and tell them this is what is required for you to 'release' the files/masters and sign away your contribution to the project. If they don't agree, then you could request that they do not have permission to use the files that you recorded (if they haven't paid, then you own them, but it's super-hard to enforce). "

i suppose its really up to you how far you take it, and as someone else mentioned you are getting some sort of financial compensation, regardless of how pathetic it may be in the overall scheme of things. I for one will take this one with me and remember to have the signed piece/s of paper as insurance in future dealings with anything related to this game.

But i would like to know others responses to this question, If Myles does just bend over and take it, does it leave him in a uncomfortable position legal wise if he accepts the paltry offering made by the party in question, By this i mean that having accepted the deal offered and handing it <the recording masters/mixes> over, does it leave him without a leg to stand on in the future <single goes sky high etc> because he took the money and ran?

Good luck Myles, please keep us posted on how this goes, i for one think it would be beneficial to us early entrants into the industry to see how something like this can be handled and resolved in a manner that is beneficial to the parties involved. As well as a good example of how sneaky and underhanded people in this business can be.

[13thbeach]

I say lets go bust some knee caps underbelly style.

[mark rachelle]

c'mon guys

nobody is in the world of the band and label

they need to move forward with their career and myles you were unavailable!

now do not go into a world of people being wrong here but

myles isnt being stepped over
he is just wishing that he can be part of their future and thats not appropriate for the band at this time

nothing more

they ARE paying him off, perhaps not quick enough but they ARE doing it,

once you can look clearly from both sides and not include your own personal ego and drama then this will always happen!

god it happened to me too many times in the past.
nearly cost me my sanity, certainly cost me over 250k
a relationship and 3 record labels!
and my love of music for at least 2 years

then lawyers, bad launguage , violence, court , war happens when we lay blame on the other side and fail to look at our part in the equation WITHOUT justifying our point of veiw.

Myles shit happens , but its your life and You are in control of your own destiny, best to do it with a smile, and a positive attitude, and with love, generosity and integrity to your fellow man.

[Linear]

also, for those who will use this as a cautionary tale - remember, contracts are WORTHLESS unless you have the money and resources to ENFORCE the contract.

and as my business partner (who also happens to be an entertainment lawyer) will attest, if you have enough money, you can get out of almost any contract, especially those written up on a shoestring budget (water-tight contracts are very long and very expensive- just look at a major's standard contract).

in fact, artists and labels breach contracts all the time. it all depends on what the breach was, and whether or not it's worth trying to enforce the breach.

so to be perfectly honest, if myles had cobbled together a contract that didn't cost in excess of $20k to draft AND didn't have another $50k in hand to enforce said contract, he'd probably be in the same position that he's in now.

isn't life great! this is why personal relationships (in my opinion) are worth more than contracts. and they cost less!! keep the relationships solid, do the right thing, don't screw anyone over, maintain integrity, always give 100% and you'll always be paid!!

Chris

[Mickstape]

c'mon guys

nobody is in the world of the band and label

they need to move forward with their career and myles you were unavailable!

now do not go into a world of people being wrong here but

myles isnt being stepped over
he is just wishing that he can be part of their future and thats not appropriate for the band at this time

nothing more

they ARE paying him off, perhaps not quick enough but they ARE doing it,

once you can look clearly from both sides and not include your own personal ego and drama then this will always happen!

god it happened to me too many times in the past.
nearly cost me my sanity, certainly cost me over 250k
a relationship and 3 record labels!
and my love of music for at least 2 years

then lawyers, bad launguage , violence, court , war happens when we lay blame on the other side and fail to look at our part in the equation WITHOUT justifying our point of veiw.

Myles shit happens , but its your life and You are in control of your own destiny, best to do it with a smile, and a positive attitude, and with love, generosity and integrity to your fellow man.

Well put Mark, your rational mindset obviously got you through your experiences with this sort of thing. and without being snide, better you than me. That said i would have let my emotions get the better off me, i mean 250k is small change in the overall scheme of things but when its out of your own pocket, well lets just say i'd be getting rather nasty. War is the correct term for it i feel.

And what Chris said about having enough money is unfortunately way too true. Money talks and bullshit always walks when the right offer is made. So disheartening but a fact o life.

[Ben M]

Welcome to the music business!

:)

it's at 'the head of the river, where the water is still clean'. If you think it's bad now, wait till more people get involved...

I like that a lot, can I use that one? Sounds like Confucius. :)

Retrospectively, there's no a great deal you can do. If there is nothing in writing, then a 'verbal' agreement is very hard to enforce as it becomes your word against theirs.

If you want fair play all the time, get it in writing. Unfortunately the Oz music business does verbals all the time and we rely on other's "word" and desire to see the best for the project. Which we should be able too BTW but IMHO the Oz music business at grass roots doesn't look to the future enough, consider possibilities or take itself seriously enough (generally). Like it's a hobby or something? Which doesn't lead to the setting up of a project's financials.
Whereas the brits and septic tanks do contracts day to day. Like blowing their nose.

The fact that they said no points are 'available' is like saying there is no potential for profit (which could also be true ;-0)

But, a word to the wise.... never, ever, ever do a points or payment deal verbally. Never. I can't stress it enough. You walked right into that one.

Points = pointless unless pen meets paper. Usually your talking about 1, 2 or 3 points for an album. Which = FA unless a song hits the charts and continues to climb. Or it gets placed in a popular american movie. If you don't have any composing rights to this project then I would forget about doing business this way (generally).

At worst, you could chalk it up as experience, hope that they make it big and that your name will be associated with it...

All good words Chris.

Myles, I doubt there's any want to return to this project. If you can stomach the $50 per week and your not dependent on it, I'd call your collaborator's up and say that you'd like the payments to go to the charity of your choice or to a music society in a third world community - courtesy of you - and show them what pure human kindness is all about. :)

As for the grant..well... if you've given them your bio, a letter of support and have signed something to do with the grant then you should be able to raise some eyebrows at Arts Vic. But probably little else.

All the best :)

[Ben M]

so to be perfectly honest, if myles had cobbled together a contract that didn't cost in excess of $20k to draft AND didn't have another $50k in hand to enforce said contract, he'd probably be in the same position that he's in now.

isn't life great! this is why personal relationships (in my opinion) are worth more than contracts. and they cost less!! keep the relationships solid, do the right thing, don't screw anyone over, maintain integrity, always give 100% and you'll always be paid!!

Chris

ahhhh.....life. :)

[rick]

i think this will fix your woes and give you a better perspective

beer
girl
cool car
time

you can mix them up in any order you like as long as you come away feeling better:)

i got fired fired from a production once because the band thought i wasnt good enough for them and they spent the album money on a overseas guy to produce just two tracks ! and .. well just about everything else that happened in your tale happened to me..twice

20 years later i drove through the local drive through bottle shop with my beautiful wife in my just painted and beautifully restored and i mean absolutley stomping metallic candy apple red 64 futura , my wife gets out to buy some stuff and i see the guy at the counter checking her and the car out ... on closer inspection i see its my long lost " rock star" serving her at the counter of the bottlo
i jump out a "help" her with bottles.
look up and say "oh hey pauly how you doing ..?"

pauly is working on some demos ( and at the bottlo..) of the "new" stuff and looking for a drummer right now
he is going to send me some stuff because he thinks i would really like to hear it :)



dont sweat it miles , you must have made some mistakes somewhere to end up where you are ,
its no big deal in the fullness of time.

i think the key to this business in the long haul is not to make the same mistakes twice ..
err i keep finding new ones
and dont hang on to the pain of dickweed clients , life will sort them out .. take the high road etc etc

i think i have run out of cliches for this post

i might sum up by saying

i got a fork lift the other day .. i dont know what i was thinking for the last 25 years
if you have always have heavy stuff in your life
get a fork lift !

[13thbeach]

beer
girl
cool car
time

you can mix them up in any order you like as long as you come away feeling better:)!

Yeah I'd switch option 2 and 3 around....but thats just me.

[Mickstape]

i think this will fix your woes and give you a better perspective

beer
girl
cool car
time

you can mix them up in any order you like as long as you come away feeling better:)

i got fired fired from a production once because the band thought i wasnt good enough for them and they spent the album money on a overseas guy to produce just two tracks ! and .. well just about everything else that happened in your tale happened to me..twice

20 years later i drove through the local drive through bottle shop with my beautiful wife in my just painted and beautifully restored and i mean absolutley stomping metallic candy apple red 64 futura , my wife gets out to buy some stuff and i see the guy at the counter checking her and the car out ... on closer inspection i see its my long lost " rock star" serving her at the counter of the bottlo
i jump out a "help" her with bottles.
look up and say "oh hey pauly how you doing ..?"

pauly is working on some demos ( and at the bottlo..) of the "new" stuff and looking for a drummer right now
he is going to send me some stuff because he thinks i would really like to hear it :)



dont sweat it miles , you must have made some mistakes somewhere to end up where you are ,
its no big deal in the fullness of time.

i think the key to this business in the long haul is not to make the same mistakes twice ..
err i keep finding new ones
and dont hang on to the pain of dickweed clients , life will sort them out .. take the high road etc etc

i think i have run out of cliches for this post

i might sum up by saying

i got a fork lift the other day .. i dont know what i was thinking for the last 25 years
if you have always have heavy stuff in your life
get a fork lift !

i always imagined you as a charger/pacer kind of guy Rick. You certainly know how to rub it in lol.

[rick]

a charger is better in every way then my car except looks

you gotta have something to aim for .

[Chris H]

a charger is better in every way then my car except looks

you gotta have something to aim for .

......confucious says....aim for the toilet bowl not the floor!

[Mickstape]

yeah so true. i'm aiming for one of those nice maya converters that you have, when i can spend that sort of coin on a "box" then life is going pretty well i reckon.

[rick]

i just got word there is going to be a scaled down street version of weiss/maya converter
maybe i will sell you my rocket ship model ... cheap :)

[Ben M]

beer
girl
cool car
time

you can mix them up in any order you like as long as you come away feeling better:)!

Yeah I'd switch option 2 and 3 around....but thats just me.

I can't put these in order, I'm having a brain freeze. T..o...o........m...a..n..y..........g..o....o...d....t..h....i....n....g...s.

:)

[Mickstape]

rocket ship model? sign me up... just let me know when the bidding starts so i can send the wife out for a day spa.

i just mentioned the maya convertor to her and she said "why would someone do that, why didnt he just buy a nice record player and plug it into some good speakers?" i shook my head and just said "baby, i love you but you know ima be spending some serious money on gear next year."

if looks could kill....