garage fit-out - floating metal frame?

[mfdu]

it's been such a long time, hasn't it? the simple fact of having a kid - somethings got to give.

anyway, now that my fella has cleared the 1YO mark and is already shoing to be great on the drum and ukelele, time to go back to the plans for fitting out the garage.

three sides of the garage are wood, with one side cinder block and a sloping concrete floor.
i'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on floating a steel frame within the existing structure.
i've got an engineering workshop just around the corner, so i'm thinking of getting them to weld up the 6 faces and then i'll bolt them together, using high density rubber / neoprene blocks to float the whole thing.
then just the 'easy' job of lining with gyprock soundcheck over rockwool, fit second door , wire up power and signal cables and voila - floating instrument room.

hmmmm. any flaws with tha cunning plan immediately apparent?

it's bound to give me better isolation than lining the existing stud walls, and from my initial discussions with the welders it'll work out pretty [inexpensive].

but is metal frame the way to go? dimensions don't give me the ability to build an extra set of block or brick walls, so i'm looking at minimum width with maximum isolation . . .

[Mickstape]

Have you considered using Hebel Chris? its lightweight, not too expensive and would suit your space requirements. Plus theres no messing round with having to fix the gyprock, topcoat etc. And i hear it has good sound reduction properties, it's what im planning on using for the inner wall when i start the studio build later in the year. Also when you say "cinder block" i assume thats "besser block" yes? And congrats on your young'un clearing one, My little guy is fast approaching the "Terrorist Two's" and is unrelentless in his mission to get everything that he couldnt reach before, and playing the guitars, well if you can call ramming his hand into the sound hole and then ripping it out so everything goes twanggg playing.

[mfdu]

ha ha ha no Finn is already helping me on lap-steel. i hold pick ad slide, and he gets in between and makes beautiful things happen.
he's great with the wooden-spoon drum sticks too. favourate is definately the 18" floor tom.
he may not be talking enlish, but he's already fluent in music.
i'll look into hebble. don't know of it.
[i have als posted on the john sayr forum, so will cherry-pick responses . . .)

[Mickstape]

Heh thats mad dude, my little guy gets on the upright and jams away, i think i have a future muso in my house, lets hope he's better than his old man lol. Yeah def check out hebel, im sure there are people on here who have used it<i hope>, also i'd suggest if your budget can accomodate it, using the fire-rated gyprock, oh and if your back can handle it also that is, if you can afford it then the old "do you work for beer n bbq" always works on my mates for the fit out, the fire-check stuff is farkin heavy man.

As for the JS forum, i'm yet to get a reply, apparently unless you are doing a "Pro Spec" studio build then you aren't worth a reply. sniff.

[mfdu]

finn totally talks music already. he can sing along in pitch, even though there are no words. damn it, he claps in time to john spencer blues explosion.
he he - can't wait to see what he thinks once i finally build my theramine!

and the 'work for beer' thing is no problem, since i brew my own!
would you like belgiun bock (10.5%), aussie pale ale, american brown or a honey lager?

if i dont get a response from the JS forum, i reckon i will go the non-structural rigid metal frame with one layer of soundcheck screwed on to the frame then another layer glued on with green goo.
all cavities filled with rockwool.
floor being 25mm yellowtounge layed over 2mm neoprene sheet on top of the steel frame.
i mean, i've got about 35db sound reduction between garage and lounge/control room at the moment (according to the sound meter on a very old nokia phone), so i'd be hoping for in excess of 60db with all of that.
as long as no parts of the inner layer are directly touching the original garage then i'll be killin it.

[Mickstape]

finn totally talks music already. he can sing along in pitch, even though there are no words. damn it, he claps in time to john spencer blues explosion.
he he - can't wait to see what he thinks once i finally build my theramine!

and the 'work for beer' thing is no problem, since i brew my own!
would you like belgiun bock (10.5%), aussie pale ale, american brown or a honey lager?

if i dont get a response from the JS forum, i reckon i will go the non-structural rigid metal frame with one layer of soundcheck screwed on to the frame then another layer glued on with green goo.
all cavities filled with rockwool.
floor being 25mm yellowtounge layed over 2mm neoprene sheet on top of the steel frame.
i mean, i've got about 35db sound reduction between garage and lounge/control room at the moment (according to the sound meter on a very old nokia phone), so i'd be hoping for in excess of 60db with all of that.
as long as no parts of the inner layer are directly touching the original garage then i'll be killin it.

WORD! I dabble in the home brew also, it's good, cheap and reasonably healthy. Just ask my gut.... And the wife haha!

Yeah sounds like you got it under control man. good luck with it, let us know how you go. Btw where do you source the neoprene sheet from?

[mfdu]

1st port of call would be clark rubber.

after that, i'd let my fingers do the walking . . .

not much help there. yet.


keep on brewing, buddy. and if you ever come down to mexico, drop in for a sample!

[NYMo]

Hi Chris,

What yoi said in your first post is exactly what I did with my room !

You may still be able to find the thread on Sayers site.

Good luck

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

(Glad that my studio build was nearly enough yours ago to forget the nightmare....
Chris and Rick...I feel for ya !!)

[mfdu]

hang on Nymo, so you've done a metal frame within an existing structure?

john sayer said 'dont go there girlfriend' (hand on hip finger shake)- he's concerned about the metal ringing.

how did it work for you? any drawbacks to metal frame instead of wood?


please please let me know!?

[13thbeach]

(Glad that my studio build was nearly enough yours ago to forget the nightmare....
Chris and Rick...I feel for ya !!)

You can ad me to that list NYMo. I'm looking forward to the day I don't have to hit things with a hammer, or shoot nails from stupidly powerful nail guns.... oh and I
never thought i'd be sick of the sound of a compressor....but the air compressor has done that for me.

Chris have a look into easy board. My studio has alot through it and Atlantis is full of it also....

Its basically about 2 inches thick of compressed straw and other bits and pieces.... very cool stuff.
Next time you pop over to the studio, I'll show you a sample.

[NYMo]

Hi there,

Chris....I must have missed that it was bad on the Sayers site....facepalm.

Can't say I've noted any ringing, although its WAY too late now !
The floating floor frame was wooden and the metal wall frame attached to that.

They put rubber grommets inbetween all the metal wall joins, if I recall, so there
wasn't much movement.
Thinking about it now, the reason we went with the metal frame was that
the initial builder (there were a few !) had taken the metal from a building site he was working at (I found this out later !)

Anyways...I don't want to go through all that again...maybe twice in a lifetime !

Mat...I feel for you too ! Has that Pacifica landed yet ??

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[qiktune]

Hey Chris, maybe take a look at these comparisons before you dole out for Soundcheck....

http://www.how2plaster.com/sound/compare.html

I'm using 2 layers of 16mm fire check on metal stud. If you're on facebook add me...I have a private album of my build diary including costs and man hours. I'm anally keeping track of things just to see at which point the cost DOES blow out!

[Ausrock]

Having frequently, in the past, been in a steel framed house, there's no way I'd even consider it for a studio.

[Mickstape]

Hey Chris, maybe take a look at these comparisons before you dole out for Soundcheck....

http://www.how2plaster.com/sound/compare.html

I'm using 2 layers of 16mm fire check on metal stud. If you're on facebook add me...I have a private album of my build diary including costs and man hours. I'm anally keeping track of things just to see at which point the cost DOES blow out!

thanks for that link Brett.

mind if i add ya to have a bit of a peek at your pics?

[qiktune]

Not at all

[Mickstape]

ok so which brett moses are ya haha. there are 6 brett moses' that i can find so far. are you the thumbs up guy LOL

[qiktune]

lol, no...see the big John Lennon painting that be me and my handiwork :-)

[Mickstape]

neh it aint there man. strange.... how bout you add me haha, http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/Mic ... roductions

[qiktune]

gotcha!

[NYMo]

Hi there,

Yeah...I did exactly what Brett did ..2 layers of 16mm Firecheck on metal frame.

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[NYMo]

Hi Brett,

Just looking at your studio build.

I think those garage doors are going to be a problem...they really don't stop much !

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[qiktune]

Hey NYMo, that was exactly what I thought but studying what others have done on the Sayers site and what John himself suggests my plan is as follows.

The door at the front of the house which is to be sealed permanently will have a metal stud frame built as close as possible to it and then the cavity sealed and stuffed with rockwool/insulation...thus creating leaf one. the interior wall of the CR will form the second leaf. As per what I've read, if I were to gyprock the outer face of leaf 1 I would then in fact be creating a 3 leaf wall because as thin as that garage door is it still acts as a leaf. There's a hell of a lot of info on this at Sayers site...I'm hoping it's not ALL misinformation... :-(

The garage door next to it is basically just an entry/exit so will not have any bearing on the studio.

The rear garage door will be removed and a new wall built in it's place so that one's not really an issue. We're just waiting for the last minute before closing that off as obviously working space inside the build area is at a premium and we need access to the patio/storage area for the time being.

But please, pick apart any issues you find and discuss...I'm all ears and grateful

[rob]

you should hear Hebel blocks ringing!

[mfdu]

wow guys i'm feeling the love.

but i'm being dodgied off the metal frame. i mean, if you had one, you don't want it back. i hear ya.

13th - that stuff i saw stacked up at your place is the shit. that's what i'm going with. i forgot all about it.
building certificate for wood frame, rockwool between the studs, easyboard over the top and i'll moon walk outta here!

but yeah mate - my little fella and i need to come and see your new digs before all the 'pretty' gets laid on. i want to see the guts!
after all, our garage is for music, but also for finn. i mean, best naughty room in spotswood - SOUNDPROOF!!!!!!!!!!

(and i hope i get to recap at least one of your purdy modules. it'd be nice to contribute to the overall creation. [?])

[rick]

i have had a hebel room once , i wont let anybody i know do it again unless they fill each block with sand
which kinda defeats the purpose , of easy light quick etc etc .

[heathen]

i have had a hebel room once , i wont let anybody i know do it again unless they fill each block with sand
which kinda defeats the purpose , of easy light quick etc etc .

I've only seen solid ones. Why not use them, would'nt they work? I'm not using hebel btw.

[rick]

they sing ... at a set frequency which is what you dont want , thus the need for sand

[heathen]

Pity, as they are easy to use.

[mfdu]

so to sum it all up.

singing. good if you're a singer. bad if you're a wall construction technique.

[Mickstape]

i have had a hebel room once , i wont let anybody i know do it again unless they fill each block with sand
which kinda defeats the purpose , of easy light quick etc etc .

rick wrote:
i have had a hebel room once , i wont let anybody i know do it again unless they fill each block with sand
which kinda defeats the purpose , of easy light quick etc etc .


I've only seen solid ones. Why not use them, would'nt they work? I'm not using hebel btw.

Yeah i was referring to the solid panels also Rick.

As for Rob's comment

you should hear Hebel blocks ringing!

are you referring to the metal strip that the hebel block is fixed to ringing or the actual hebel itself? Could you provide a freq range in regards to the "ringing". I was given "advice" from a builder friend of mine who thinks that combining hebel with an extra absorptive layer fixed to the internal side will provide great reduction as well as providing a more natural sounding space. Could you care to clarify this for me please Rick and Rob. Just asking because i've practically got my budget down to the screws and fittings now so i need to consider another contingency if hebel is not in fact the way for me to go.