Cymbals in the mix

[Son of Sam]

Hey everyone.

I have a question and I thought I'd come since this is where all the big brains hang out.



When I mix, the cymbals usually really annoy me because they're too bright and tend to mask the distorted guitars.
Does anyone else suffer from this?

Now, if the guitar have 10K as their main frequency and the drums have 5K as theirs, what I'll tend to do is cut the 10K in the drums and cut the 5K in the guitars.

Sounds logical?

Well it actually works pretty well for me except that I have this problem with the cymbals.
When theres and accent on the cymbals the guitars seem to momentarily cease to be, and I really hate it.

If I cut 10K out of the cymbals to compensate (if the guitars are at at 10K) then the cymbals become like this disembodied hiss and I absolutely loath that kind of cymbal sound.

If I low pass filter the cymbals at what I feel is the offending frequency then my carefully balanced mix gets a gaping hole up the top of the mix.

Any suggestions?


I've tried de-essing the cymbals but it doesn't really seem to the trick and tends to kill any attack they might have.

Maybe someone has some bright idea or trick they like to use for this problem?


Cheers.

[jkhuri44]

Maybe someone has some bright idea or trick they like to use for this problem?


Cheers.

Cymbals = white noise. They sound like balls. lets start there :P

Aftet you get over this, teh next most important thing to make sure of is how well they are recorded.....the better recordings of cymbals sound like percussive instruments, have bell like qualities, and have a nice mix of tone, rather than just NOISE.

the arrangement and performance of the instrument is important also.

After that, the mix....use a good eq :-)

[Kurt]

If 10k is the main frequency in your guitars maybe you should start there... There probably shouldn't be an awful lot over about 4k in your guitars. Most of the energy should be in the hundreds for both guitars and drums.

Of course I may be completely wrong ;)

[Linear]

best trick I can think of is to use a pair of Coles ribbons as overheads. tames the sharpest cymbals.

they might sound dark 'off the bat', but in mix situation you have so much scope to add more top end if needed. great thing is with ribbons (because they are passive and contain no electronics) there is virtually no distortion. this means smooth, linear top end. Coles ribbons are great too because they have a great off-axis response.

Chris

ps 4040's are like 4038's with a more extended top end.

[Linear]

and if you're just mixing badly recorded cymbals (ie you can't change the mic's used) then I would:

- use automation to ride down the harsh parts, like where the drummer throttles a crash like it's a ride;
- use a great EQ like an avalon or massive passive - find the offending frequencies and cut them out, then smoothly boost the rest;
- try using a transient designer to remove the harsh 'front' from the cymbal hits;
- see what other options you have - sometimes you just don't need overheads (if, for example, there are room mics);
- consider just using 1 of the overheads in mono (the better sounding one duh);
- stick it through a very fast compressor and see if you can tame it that way.

Chris

[walding]

Err 10k on guitars, you sure you didn't add a zero there.

[Chris H]

....... this means smooth, linear top end..........

.......gota love that:)

When i first read about having specific frequencies for specific instruments, it seemed a logical and great discovery, but over time it has become much less a part of my recording and mixing. The thing worth persuing is great sounds when tracking and learning how to adopt what you do when recording to the players style. One thing will work for one players style but the way the next player hits the cymbals might throw the first aproach out the window. Apart from that the other thing is balance in the mix and that might mean automating the mix to atenuate the cymbals when you think they are getting in the road of the guitar at spacific places in the song.
Another clever idea that i have never done would be to duck the cymbals using the guitar as the trigger but the more i think about it the less apealing this aproach would be.


..PS...

Hey everyone.

I have a question and I thought I'd come since this is where all the big brains hang out.

......Do you always come when you have a question?

[Mark Bassett]

Son of Sam, can you please write your name in the signature section at the bottom of you posts.

[Chinagraf]

Cris Linear is onto it ...... automate automate automate. I dunno about others but I am riding the cymbals like a cowboy in chorus, even pulsing them in time with the music if the player is a little tame.
Good eq helps too, but automation is where it's at. I've always liked a little quick attack slow release on the cymbals too, but it depends on the tyle of music you are doing.
Of course the ultimate solution is use really amazingly good quality cymbals so they don't sound harsh to begin with.