power conditioners, your thoughts please

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power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby capitalK » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:01 pm

the scene:
well, i blew up a guitar head.
now, i think there may be an issue with the speaker cable running through the wall, and it may have failed causing the amp not to have a load...
or, there could have been some dodgy power voodoo happening?
either way, it's made me curious about the legitimacy of spending some dollars on a good power conditioner, and would love to hear about other peoples experiences with them.
It led me to trying every power outlet in the studio when reamping some guitars last night, with some quite extreme differences in noise floor.
should i even be looking at off the shelf power conditioners? or getting a sparky in to try and regulate the power for the whole building?

i know, it's not as fun to talk about a as vintage equipment, or iced vovo's... :-B
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Ben M » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:18 pm

Did someone mention vovo's???

Just a quick first thought Karl- it sounds more like a job for all your incoming power rather than an individual point where you want to use a conditioner.
Is the building quite old? Old cabling can be problematic.
I'd get a sparky to look at the overall power and then they can very quickly measure the voltage your receiving at different powerpoints. This may only cost you $70 for the hour (or so) but will ease your mind.
I think the problems people have with power usually start at the foundations (like most things). You will chase your tail if you do conditioning on some points and not others. Go to the source first me thinks.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby rick » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:29 pm

first
get a sparky in that understands a thing or too about power ( you would be surprised at the lack of knowledge i have encountered over the years from sparkys)
you might run $1000- $1500 in his time and materials getting the power cabling and outlets into shape
but it will be the best money you will spend on this issue
you have an ssl right ..?
well thats reason enough to get the power lines sorted out , even the simple act of undoing and re-terminating the existing power points can radically improve your system noise.

when you have cleaned up the wiring THEN approach the power conditioning issue
until you know that every power point in your place is doing what it should a conditioner is a bandaid fix

your in Adelaide right ..?
call you local Rob squire around and get and follow his advice to the letter
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby capitalK » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:51 pm

yea, our building is in the adelaide CBD, which (i think) has a bad rep for power. and it is a quite old building too.
it's definately worth looking at i recon, i have a mate thats a sparky, but not too sure how many people i that industry would know or care how important these things are.
i was readting (i thing in AT mag) that even using hospital grade power cords make a difference, because it is important for medical equipment to have a steady, consistant flow.
how do i get hospital grade power to my building?

i think i would probably need enough info that i could tell the sparky what i want, and have them install it, rather than ask their opinion....
any links or info you've seen guys?

***just read ricks response... too quick off the mark! haha
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby capitalK » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:58 pm

i'll get on to Rob, i've been meaning to get him in again about a few things..

man, for all the things you learn, about music, and audio, and air conditioning, and carpentry, and electricity, and equipment, and producing.....
there always seems to be an endless supply of things that you never thought you'd have to know about!
i say, forget school, the real education comes with owning a studio!
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Ben M » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:03 pm

capitalK wrote:i'll get on to Rob, i've been meaning to get him in again about a few things..

man, for all the things you learn, about music, and audio, and air conditioning, and carpentry, and electricity, and equipment, and producing.....
there always seems to be an endless supply of things that you never thought you'd have to know about!
i say, forget school, the real education comes with owning a studio!


Spot on.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby rick » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:04 pm

tell me about it
"if i only didnt know now , what i didnt know then " :)
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby rick » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:05 pm

oh yeah
i would be the culprit in AT that started the hospital grade power plugs rumour
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby capitalK » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:12 pm

well, Rick, you'll be happy to know your obsessive compulsive behaviour is contagious!!
i cant hold a normal conversation with my friends anymore. not totally your fault. hahaha!
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby rick » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:20 pm

dont blame me
i am a known and registered carrier of the disease
you have all truly had enough warning to stay well away
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby audioio » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:13 pm

Had similar experiences in my workplace.

Our tech reported frequent blowing up of amps (won't reveal the brand he quoted). Turns out Victorian generators often deliver well above 240V. On one occasion, he measured 257!

The amps are rated at 220V.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby stosostu » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:59 am

Having a good electrician, who understands the noise issues for mains wiring in a studio is essential. I'm in the process of building my new studio and this week the electrician arrived to do the inital mains connections to the distribution board. After connecting everything up the mains was working but he was not happy as he detected some instability. On further checking he found that the ETSA wiring into their electricty meter was the fault. The terminal has two clamping screws, neither of which had been tightened, the wire (45mm) was just siiting in there. There was evidence of arcing and the insulation had been burnt and had gone brittle for about 75mm back from the terminal. Fortunately there was enough spare wire to reterminate it, even though it is technically an ETSA job.

The result is a good solid job that shouldn't cause any issues in future.

In his opinion, the only way to ensure really clean power is to run all the incoming mains through a Uninteruptable Power Supply (UPS) where the AC > DC > AC transition keeps all the external noise out. Unfortunately, a UPS big enough to run the whole studio is a fairly expensive proposition so I'll see how I go first, being out in the country should mean that I have less noise on the lines anyway.

Re the 220V amps, that was a known issue with Peaveys a few years ago. It doesn't seem much but in essence it is a 10% overvoltage, which flows on to all the internal voltages. Thus, if the HT DC rail should be 400V, it becomes 440V, much more significant.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby JulienG » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:05 am

audioio wrote:...Turns out Victorian generators often deliver well above 240V. On one occasion, he measured 257!

The amps are rated at 220V.


I had 252v both at my old office and flat (CBD and suburbs).

Remember that Australia is a nominally 230v country these days, even if it was a change in name only.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby stosostu » Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:12 pm

From the ETSA website in SA, I'd expect other states to be the same:

The SA Electricity (General) Regulations (1997) require ETSA Utilities to ensure the
voltage levels at a customer’s point of supply to be ‘generally in accordance with
AS 2926’. However, the current issue of the Distribution Code requires ETSA
Utilities to ensure the volt age levels at the customer’s supply address ‘is as set out in
AS 60038.’ Table 1 shows the pertinent voltages associated with each standard.
Table 1 Standards
Australian Standard Lower Voltage Limit Nominal Voltage Upper Voltage Limit
AS 2926 226V 240V 254V
AS 60038 216V 230V 253V
These are steady state voltage levels which exclude voltage transients, such as those
resulting from system switching and temporary voltage variations. There may be up
to a further 5% voltage drop within the customers installation.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby The Tasmanian » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:14 pm

Presuming all the wiring is all fixed and in good order - would a cheapish ARX or Furman power conditioner do the job of protection from these voltage spikes ?
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Alastair Reynolds » Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:40 am

The cheapish conditioners are just that, cheapish. Surge protection on these is generally a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) that will divert excess voltage to ground, but this is generally over 260V, more for when a neutral goes across another phase or a transformer fails. It won't protect against 240V +10%.
A double conversion UPS ,as Bob mentions earlier , is a cost effective way of cleaning up power( I use a redundant 80KVA double conversion UPS for all studio and technical power at our Radio Station), after you've had the sparky do the power points and sub board and even perhaps have the main board in the building checked out. Breakers and contacters all deteriorate over the years and increased contact resistance means voltage fluctuations depending on current drawn , like if you're in an older house and the Aircon / heating kicks in and the lights dim--- Voltage Sag. If you are a tenant in the building , you should be within your rights to have the building owner correct any wiring faults/ dodgy old power points etc, from at OH&S perspective. Another thing that occurs in NSW and probably in SA as well is the energy authority changes voltage taps on substation transformers for winter to cope with increased load from electric heating. This is probably due to change back soon. Also if the building has excess load on one particular phase this may be affecting voltage on the other phases and shifting the power factor (Current lagging voltage due to inductive load and may require power factor correction--common with lots of Fluro lights in offices)
an explanation of power factor is available here http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_11/3.html
For more heavy duty power conditioning, e.g. a full studio or in my case a Transmitter site we use automatic 3 phase Auto-transformers ( Big things suspended in oil) Our transmitter in right next to the main distribution substation for the Homebush Olympic Precinct and subject to to some big fluctuations .
Newer versions of these are available from ABB http://www.abb.com/product/seitp322/e039976253ee76f8c12576f600410658.aspx but they're not cheap, so ...
1) Get the sparky to check and/ or replace the crusty old powerpoints
2) Get the sparky to check the subboard and replace older breakers, check the neutral link and earthing
3) Get the sparky to check the phase load balance in the building
4) Look at your power bill, energy authorities often rate the power factor on the bill e.g. a power factor of 0.78 is poor and you will be paying more for your power. Simple power saving tip , have power factor correction applied.(If possible)
5)Look at obtaining a double conversion UPS for critical gear to run on. This can be installed on a seperate circuit in your studio , with bypass available.Use a different coloured powerpoint to identify clean / tech power e.g. Red.
6) Get Rob round to check it out (Maybe that should be point 1)
Well there's some more ideas. Good clean power and good earthing is critical to any audio facility and the investment will pay big dividends from the reduction in equipment failure,less noise problems and safety
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby The Tasmanian » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:59 am

I was hoping you'd chime in Alastair
My little shack studio down in Tasmania has new powerboard etc - but I am out in the forest at the end of the world and am concerned one day my cheap surge protector may not protect me from a big spike.
Can these double conversion UPS be bought for a smaller setup - any ideas for where to look and not waste ones money?
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Alastair Reynolds » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:29 am

Upsonic are a good Australian Company specializing in UPS and Power conditioners
for power conditioners that put out nice stable 230V with an input of +/- 18%
http://www.upsonic.com.au/power-conditioners.php#
for double conversion UPS
http://www.upsonic.com.au/industrial.php
They also do a less sophisticated version using "Buck and Boost " , but that's not a true double conversion.

APC also do some very good UPS units
http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=163
You'll pay about $2K for a 2000VA double conversion UPS
They have an online calculator to work out

Whilst not as exciting as a new mic or compressor, an investment in this will pay for itself the first time a big surge comes through and you don't watch the smoke escaping from that expensive piece of equipment that you love so much :)
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby The Tasmanian » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:49 pm

Hey Alastair
What about a solar system?
could a solar system get around some of these problems? I know there is the problem of batteries not having enough power -
such a system should stop surges - and batteries can be charged on a cloudy day with the mains power if necessary.
with all the gov rebates etc - it may end up not being that much more expensive for a small studio system (no console or tape machines). and most of the time a small amount of gear is on at any one time.
I am curious about this for small home studios - if we are going to spend a few grand on a UPS - at the end of the day the surges are the biggest problem for damage
Am i kidding myself here?
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Alastair Reynolds » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:27 pm

For a solar system, you'd need to run it as an off-grid system, but In order to obtain the rebates and RECs (Renewable Energy Credits) the system must be connected to the grid via a special electricity meter that monitors the total power flowing back to the grid .
This system must also shut down all power in the event of a Grid mains failure so as to prevent solar system back feeding into the grid and electrocuting a worker , so when the mains fails , your solar system shuts down and you still can't work .
In NSW for instance , the electricity company pays you on a gross Metering basis, I.e. for every Kilowatt Hour of energy you produce and then charges you normal rates for every KWH you use. RECs are usually assigned to the installer to offset the cost of the installation. e.g. the real cost of a 1.5KW solar system is between $14K and $20K, but the RECs and rebates reduce this out of pocket cost to about $3k to $4k for the average installation.
Other states run a Net metering based system where you pay for power you use above the amount you generate . Check with your local energy authority.

Even with all this as you are still conected to the grid it will make no difference to the surges and sags

A UPS is probably a much cheaper option
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Ben M » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:24 pm

Hey there Chris

We live under stand alone (no mains) solar power in Kangaroo Valley NSW. I've been amazed by the system that we have.. and really.. we don't live any differently (powerwise) too how we did in Sydney - probably just more conscious when unnecessary lights are on).
We convert 24v to 240 volts via an excellent inverter that's truly stable (much more than the local supply). I'm constantly having a chuckle too myself when Kangaroo Valley power goes down in a big storm... and that's about once a month, Bahahahah! Also, I've only had to change 1 light bulb in the 4 years we've lived here. That in itself is amazing to me.
Solar seems rock solid and very quiet in my opinion. I've had my home system set up in a separate studio building (60 m away from the house/panels/inverter/reg...) that's on the same solar power as the house without any glitches or loss of voltage. The sparky that did the final connection to 240v read the same voltage at each point including the studio 60 m down the hill. Which totally thrilled me because I wired the house/studio and everywhere inbetween. There's no interference..no spikes...no nothing... just quiet uninterrupted free power from the sun.
I wouldn't have any concerns with doing the solar thing for your small remote tasmanian studio. Even if you have access to mains there I would still steer you in the direction of stand alone solar. It's flipping sun energy and once you pay the upfront you'll never see another power bill. I still can't believe how simple and how reliable it is. Have I sold it yet....... :D

Anyway, the only hesitation I would have is if you didn't use the system for long periods. Batteries like usage so you should have an intelligent regulator to shunt power when needed and manage your system.

Happy to talk about it anytime.

cheers
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Ps the system is close to 2KW. The inverter has a 9KW peak. Regulator is a max power point tracker. 12 x 2 volt deep cycle batteries. 12 x 160 watt solar panels.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby The Tasmanian » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:44 pm

Hey Ben - this is what i'm thinking - bugger feeding it back into the grid - keep the studio completely separate on its own small modest solar set-up, plus I have mains power now for the rest of the house (fridge house stuff etc etc) Cause if I am going to spend $2k on a UPS then I should at least look at this money as a deposit towards a solar system because as time goes on the cost of electricity will become crippling in the not so distant future.
So basically have 2 systems - and as the costs gradually go down in the future look at the whole house and studio on solar. And no spikes!
Ben - I would love to visit K Valley on one of my trips from Syd to Tuross when i visit my mum and dad - and check out your solar set-up - sounds really inspiring.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Ben M » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:36 pm

Chris

Thoroughly agree with all of the above including visit to KV. PM me before your next journey south.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby rick » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:00 pm

ok what about this
my wife spent $20,000 on solar panels to eleviate the power bill from her life ( at one of her businesses)
the guys installed it and assured her that there would be no more power bills and we would be feeding the grid and Making money off the sun !
they have to stay on the grid for regulations to do with food handling / saftey stuff i dunno about all the details

then three months down the line the power bill comes in .. its the same as the last one... oh oh !
it turns out the damn solar circuits tripped out the day after they were put in !

the guys have been back three times since .. they are still bugging out when it rains
so its never really clear to the non technical wether its sun power or wether its tripped
and they have to wait a week or two for the guys to come back and get up on the roofs and refire it

and also in the washup it seems the solar power will not actually cut out ALL of the power bill just 70 % of it because the government hasn't/ wont / might not implement promised credits for power .
and so on we struggle !

i was vibed up for making the new studio solar , i am sitting on the sidelines with my hands on my head
until personal experience shows otherwise
DAMN
show me de power !
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby The Tasmanian » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:11 am

I'm vibed to do it on a small to medium scale - And I have always been suss about the "rebates" so most likely will have nothing to do with the government when I set-it up in Tas.
Ben sounds like he's really got it happening - when one is forced into it it is amazing what can be achieved
But at BJB with the monster Neve, Quadeight, tape machines and all the other gear it will have to wait until it all gets a lot more efficient .
BJB is also on the highest point in Sydney with a direct view to the Blue Mountains and there is hardly ever enough wind for turbines -
Sydney is really not very windy (apart from A and R guys - and a whole lot of producers with only protools or in the box experience)
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Ben M » Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:32 pm

The Tasmanian wrote:Sydney is really not very windy (apart from A and R guys - and a whole lot of producers with only protools or in the box experience)

=))


I’d hope that consumer confidence is strong for solar, it doesn’t help with people having bad experiences (like Rick’s wife). The problem seems more like the install guys and their inability to get it working correctly (and sealing it from the rain) rather than the system itself…but I’m just speculating. There should also be a little display somewhere so that the user can easily see what the system is doing. eg- for a grid connect system it should tell you when you are using the sun or when you are using the grid, how much power you are sending back, how much you’ve used, etc…etc…
This is my display that’s in my hallway.
solar display.jpg


I can easily see what’s going on without having to go out and check the regulator in the solar storage area. It tells me the incoming power from the panels and what the batteries are doing, etc… I highly recommend an internal display so the user is well informed and empowered. I think mine cost about $150 and it’s connected via a very long cat 5 cable to my regulator. It basically mirrors the reg display. Empower the consumer with the knowledge that their system is doing what it should rather than leaving them guessing whether it’s even on or not.
It’s important that you map your usage of power prior to sourcing a system so you have a realistic idea of how it’s going to work for you.
I haven’t tried it, but I reckon I could run a rock concert off my system – no probs.
Here’s a pic of my solar storage cupboard where I keep most things for the system. Some of the batteries are hiding behind the door. For those interested…..
DSC00159.jpg
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby The Tasmanian » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:01 pm

Ben it looks so simple.
You did this a few years back - correct?
If you had to do it again today what do you think the saving would be now that there is more solar stuff competing on the market - must be driving down the prices.
I dont know if you guys watched the grand final of the inventors (ABC) last week but there is a team at Newcastle Uni that have developed the first water based solar paint - you paint your roof - paint anything and you can generate power - even from moonlight!!!
Its all just about to radically change with all these great minds racing to harness new energy sources.
Rick - you need to get rid of your wife's electrician by the sound of things.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Ben M » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:59 pm

Ben it looks so simple.

Damn simple. All I have to do is ...about every 6 months top up the deminerialised water in the batteries.
Also, after about 4 consecutive days of no sun I start up the Honda 8KVA generator for 2 hours to recharge the batteries. Last winter I did this 2 or 3 times. The rest of the year the gen is hardly ever used.

You did this a few years back - correct?

That's right. The system was installed 4.5 years ago.

If you had to do it again today what do you think the saving would be now that there is more solar stuff competing on the market - must be driving down the prices.

I'm not sure to be honest Chris. I stopped having sleepless nights over it the following day after the install. I don't keep up with the latest/greatest solar stuff anymore. There must be all sorts of new products out there now. I would recommend the system I have however they probably have some new fandangled units now. I chose the inverter for a number of reasons but mainly because it's completely sealed, so ..no dust etc inside.

I dont know if you guys watched the grand final of the inventors (ABC) last week but there is a team at Newcastle Uni that have developed the first water based solar paint - you paint your roof - paint anything and you can generate power - even from moonlight!!!
Its all just about to radically change with all these great minds racing to harness new energy sources.


Moonrays! Yeah! I didn't see it but I've heard about it. There's also a woman who's invented a way of making solar panels in non labratory conditions. Some of the cost with panels goes into the sterile environment that they are made in. Like a CD pressing lab. She's developed a way of making them yourself with simple (readily available) components in a shed. Which is great for 3rd world countries.

Forgot to mention but we run our fridge off this system aswell. A super efficient fridge from Denmark called "Vestfrost". The only things we don't do is toaster, microwave or dryer. Personally I prefer the even toasting my griller does for my toast, I've never liked or felt safe with microwaves and dryers are just a waste of energy.
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby Text_Edifice » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:24 pm

A friend of mine was telling me about his Dad's farm in outback Victoria that's been running off solar for several years - he was saying the next upgrade they make will be to self cleaning solar panels (discussed here http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/26116/) as they apparently should improve efficiency by a significant amount (once they make it to market).
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Re: power conditioners, your thoughts please

Postby rick » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:43 pm

I heard a program on the radio claiming the Chinese have invented and are currently
building see through glass solar panels to replace the glass in any highrise building
the average 30+ story building could and will power itself before very long
it's a new world out there
Rick O'Neil
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