Advice on Interface Upgrade

[mavdime]

Morning Turtlerockers!

I have been using an Echo Audiofire 8 interface in my home set up for the past few years and am thinking it is time for an upgrade. One of the thing that kind of rankles me about the Audiofire is the limited digital capabilities (I have the old AF8 which only has SPDIF... no ADAT). Also I would like to step up the quality of convertors

I have been using it in conjunction with a Dangerous Music D-Box, and quite like the D-box so will hang on to it... this means I don't necessarily need an interface with monitoring facitilies as the D-box covers this pretty well

I would like something with around 8 analog in and out, SPDIF, ADAT and hopefully also AES/EBU....

I would ideally like to spend less than $2500. Also, I am on Mac.

The most obvious options at this point seem to be:

1) RME Fireface UFX
2) Apogee Ensemble or Rosetta 800 (going relatively cheap these days since they have been discontinued)
3) Metric Halo 2882
4) Lynx Aurora 8
5) Lucid 88192

The other option I guess would be to go for a good 2 channel DAC such as a Benchmark or Lavry as the main stereo DAC and use in conjunction with some other multiple ins/outs unit.... I have not looked into this option in any detail and would appreciate any suggestions you would have on going down this route

I make Electronic music with a few real instruments in there, so need to be able to plugin mics, bass guitar, synths, etc

While I could get a way with tracking one instrument at a time I would like the option of being able to track several at the same time if possible

One or two decent pres on the interface would be a bonus, but not absoutely necessary as I am considering investing in a decent 2 channel pre/di separately

Anyway, I would appreciate any advice/pointers you could provide to help me decide which way to go about it

thanks and regards

Manny Satija

[mylesgm]

Well I've been using both the Aurora 16 and the Fireface 800 for quite sometime and I think it all really depends on your work flow. I use the fireface for portable recording and am quite excited by the new UFX possibilities for extended DSP for doing headphone mixes with reverbs, eq etc fully recallable. It also gives you 4 mic pre's 2x adat i/o, spdif and 2 channel AES. Converters are decent and I've done several albums that have had a national release with a balance of onboard conversion and apogee conversion. The RME drivers are great and absolutely rock solid and so is their support, they also hold their value well. I've also used it extensively for live performance and that has also been great, heaps of routing on the internal dsp for multi channel mixes with no latency. In fact the only reason i purchased an aurora was so that I could hook it up as a converter for PT HD and have used like that for nearly 2 years. Downsides are the adat i/o will do smux but this of course limits the digital track count, I know its an ADAT design limitation but annoying.

The aurora sounds great and is also rock solid. Cant discuss the drivers for anything other than the hd card but that has been flawless. Downsides you might find is that all connections are via dsub (in and out) so you'll need either dsub cables and/or a dsub patchbay which is how I have mine setup. will do 192khz no problem and will also do that on the aes inputs too. No problems at all with the unit except that there is no adat i/o which would have been nice but not 100% necessary.

So to sum up, two very fine units but it all depends on your workflow. Now that PT does 32 channels i/o on any hardware if I didn't already have HD I might not have made the leap and just stayed with the Fireface but I do like the two setup, one portable and one permanently setup in the studio.

Cant really comment on the others though if you already have adat i/o on a card you could also look at the apogee ad16 series though you need both ad16 and da16 to provide i/o. Also the MetricHalo gets a good wrap, has kept its value well and does offer onboard dsp too if thats important but seems a little pricey.

hope that helps.

[mavdime]

Hi Myles, thanks for the detailed reply... it was very helpful

I use Logic and occasionally Ableton Live so luckily have been free from the interface restrictions facing PT users (until recently that is!)

I have heard that Lynx drivers are very good, but people still seem to rate RME's drivers, stability and Totalmix as the best out there... I guess the benefit of the RME is it's usability on the road compared to say something like the Lynx... I had heard criticisms of the quality ofthe pres in the FF800 but apparently they have put better pres in the UFX so that may be a non-issue now...

A few questions,
1) the FFUFX provides dual ADAT ports as you noted... if I was to use these in SMUX mode to allow me to track at 24bit, 88.2kHz will they act as 1 pair of ADAT I/O only? my understanding is that it has 16 I/O of ADAT at 44.1 or 48kHz or 8 I/O at 88.2, 96 or 192 Khz whilst in SMUX mode.... Is this correct? I must admit the whole SMUX thing has caused me a bit of confusion! If I am correct and both in and both out ports are utilised at 88.2kHz then would I only be able to connect to other ADAT devices that support SMUX and have dual ADAT ins and outs?

2) If I wanted to get a high end 2 channel DAC as a amaster DAC down the track (such as a Burl or Lavry, etc) would it just be as simple as connecting the AES out of the FIreface into the AES in of the master DAC and would this then bypass the DAC on the FIreface?

3) Have you or any body else heard the difference in the DAC and preamps in the UFX as compared to the FF800? Apparently RME has upgraded both...

I have heard good things about the Apogee X series, but if I would go down that path it would probably cost me around $5k all up ($2.5K for the DA16x and $2.5K for the AD16x)... Has anybody used the Lucid 88192? Seems like a good compromise between cost and features but I have not been able to find any reviews of first hand user experience of it

Thanks again

Manny

[mylesgm]

answers
1) yes SMUX works by halving the track count for higher sample rates. So at 44.1/48 you have 8 channels on one cable at 88.2/96k you have 4 channels so if you have a pair of i/o ports you get 16 at 44.1/48 or 8 at 88.2/96. Does that make sense?

2) easy answer is yes. And you could do additional conversion via spdif, aes or optical spdif on the adat ports.

3) haven't heard either the new converters etc but I would say that even if there is a difference converters after a certain point are a minor link in a much more serious chain. Mic placement, preamps, comps, mixing tech etc will all have way more aural impact than the converter so I wouldn't sweat that one at all. Other people may disagree but when you are using decent quality gear (RME, Aurora, Apogee etc) then I tend to forget about the converters and focus on other areas of the signal chain.

In regards to the Pre's I have heaps of choices and the RME pre's are not bad. Clean and quiet though not hi-end they are certainly fine for many uses though I would choose something more interesting for a feature track ie voice.

M

[mavdime]

Hi Myles,

thanks for clearing that up! I think I get the Smux side of things now.... so at 44.1/48khz each cable carries 8 streams... so with the fireface UFX it would carry 2 lots of 8 in and 2 lots of 8 out, giving it 16 I/O.... at 88.2/96 each cable carries 4 streams so it would be 8 I/O... that's right yeah?

In regards to the master DAC idea.... I am planning to get a MHDT Labs Havana Tube DAC for my main home listening system... a friend has one and it sounds really really good.... It's good to know that I will have the capacity to puch this into service in the studio down the track if I ever feel that way inclined!

Sound advice about convertor quality in general... I have started to appreciate in recent times that doing the simple things rights such as getting mic placement right, proper EQing, Compressing and sound treatment will probably get me 95% of the way...

good to hear the pres are at least clean and quite... was thinking of getting a dedicated 2 channel pre/di unit such as the Sebatron VMP... since that is a coloured tube based unit the RMe pres will probably provide good contrast to them, so will be useful!

I think I am more or less sold on the FIreface UFX for the time being... I just read up a bit more on them and learnt that they will also be forward compatible with USB 3 which is good to know

A heads up for anybody else who is considering purchaisng the UFX, JRRshop in the US is corrently offering a 15% group buy discount on the unit.... given how well the Aussie dollar is doing at the moment it looks like we can get the UFX delivered for $1,866! Pretty reasonable IMO.... cheapest I have seen it in Australia is $2,799

Thanks again for your help Myles

Cheers

Manny

[Alistair]

It's worth noting the UFX seems to only have 2x ADAT or 1x ADAT and 1x SPDIF- The 800 doesn't seem to run like this. Depends if you need the SPDIF, but that would be pretty important to me.

[mylesgm]

Good point! I hadn't noticed that the ufx doesn't have spdif coax just spdif optical.

[Alistair]

Yeah, it's a bit of a pain. I've been keeping my eyes open for a new FW device and that was on my list, but when I use my summing mixer it has a SPDIF out via RCA/phono- I enjoy the layout so I'd rather keep the ADAT and SPDIF separate. Thinking I might keep my eyes open for 2nd hand FF800.

[harry]

Hey Guys,

what is the lowest latency that you can get out of these firewire / usb devices (ff400 uc, ufx ect) with all channels going (8/8 or 16/16) at 24/96k?

just asking because my current setup does 16x AD/DA streams at 24/96 with 1.5ms latency and it's rock solid but really old (creamware scope card - the little 3 dsp one old PCI card) and an A16 convertor box..

i'd like something firewire / usb and hence portable - but not if it means glitches with all channels running - 16-24 track tape transfers - and when recording and monitoring through plug ins - ie playing a guitar through a plug in phaser ect...

cheers

h.a.r.r.y.a.r.v.a.n.i.t.i.s

[mavdime]

Thanks Alistair,

I hadn't noticed that either.... I think this would mean I could only use SPDIF and ADAT at the same time at 44.1/48khz since if I wanted to use ADAT at a higher sample rate it would use up all of the ports... hmmmm, that's unfortunate

[Suburban Studios]

Hi Manny,

Have you considered a (2nd hand) RME Multiface II ?
(I bought an older Multiface I from Myles many years ago, just as I was getting my first project-studio together).

These units have 8 analog I/O, Adat I/O, separate coaxial SPDIF I/O, Headphone Out with volume & Wordclock I/O. (And adjustable reference levels).
No pres on them, but they are great all-rounders, with the bonus of the RME totalmix mixing software & digicheck metering-software and rock-solid drivers.
I'm a huge RME fan and have moved onto their MADI setups recently paired with Lynx Aurora & Mytek converters.

The Multiface II is a generation behind the latest converter technology, but I don't think that's a deal-breaker.
(Interesting converter comparison in the latest SOS, where the latest and greatest Apogees and Avids are compared to the older Dig192 and Prism converters. Not enough difference to justify the huge price jump it seems, given what the older generation are currently selling for.)

The Multiface however is not a USB or firewire unit, however, so you'll need a dedicated card to attach it to your computer. These come in a variety of flavours:
1) For desktops - Older PCI host card or the newer PCIe host card).
2) For laptops - Older Cardbus host card, or the newer ExpressCard host card.

I've always preferred PCI to Firewire/USB for latency and stability, but each to his own.
I also think the Lucid is a great deal for the money. These can be had pretty cheap 2nd-hand from the US. You'd still need an interface however, as these are simply converters.
Good luck in the hunt for an upgrade.

Cheers,
George

[mavdime]

HI George, thanks for your advice

I have heard of the Multiface before but hadn't really looked into it, so will do some investigating

I guess the only potential issue I could have with the Multiface or the Lucid is the need for having a PCIx card in my desktop and another card in my laptop to be able to use it... although I understand that the latency would probably be better than USB or firewire in any case with this type of setup... Also I do like the idea of getting something with at least 2 semi usable pres on there (although this cancels out most units except RME fireface, Apogee Ensemble or Metric Halo units) since I don't really have any other pres to use.... I figure if I get an interface with a few usuable clean pres and a dedicated coloured pre unit (such as a Sebatron, etc) I should probably have enough flavours of Di/pre to last me a while

But thankyou for the suggestion, I will certainly look into that unit... if I snag one on the cheap I could use the money I save on a dedicated preamp or on a 2 channel master DAC such as a Benchmark...

Cheers,

Manny

[ChrisW]

I'm really no expert on interfaces, being an unwrap it and use it kinda guy.
I looked at RME vs Lynx and ended up going with the Aurora 8 (used currently with an Intel iMac).
I must say it's excellent. Great sounding and pretty bomb proof.
A friend who is deep into electronic dance music is getting amazing results with his Prism Orpheus.
One of the obvious pluses of the Prism over my Lynx is the headphone monitoring.
I had to buy a Presonus Central Station in addition to my Aurora.

[mavdime]

I too have heard excellent things about the Prism Orpheus, but unfortunately it's just too expensive for me.... the cheapest I've seen them is around $4.5K!

All along Lynx Aurora and Rme UFX have been battling it out at the top of my list.... I have a Dangerous D-box so don't really need monitoring facilities in an interface.... If I was using the RME UFX in the studio I would not be using it's monitoring facilities much at all since the D-box works well in that department... on the otherhand, if I want to take the interface out for a live gig the UFX's monitoring facilities will undoubtedly be very useful!

Hmmm, decision decisions