A>D D>A for potential move to ProTools

[stosostu]

Up until now, for digital recording, I have been using St Audio C-Ports and Cool Edit Pro, which I have been reasonably happy with, BUT, the limiting factor is that the C-Ports only have drivers up to Wndows XP, the company no longer exists and no further drivers were developed. I see the time fast approaching when using XP may be a problem. So.......

So, I see a move to ProTools in my future, but after looking through the Avid catalogue it appears that they don't have the type of A>D D>A that I want. I intend to continue to use my analogue console as the mic pres, or alternatively some specific individual mic pres, but all the rack mount interfaces from Avid include numbers of mic pres that I don't want/need.

Since PT9 will, allegedly, work with third party hardware, can anyone suggest a rack mount A>D D>A that would be suitable, I'm assuming a Firewire input would be better than USB 2.0, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I will be looking for 16 I/Os so I assume that will be two racks of 8, but if there are 16 way units I would also consider them.

Finally, I have always used a PC and with this upgrade I will no doubt invest in a new computer. Since PT9 can run on that platform, would anyone like to attempt to convince me that, with this new venture, that I should also move to a Mac platform, and if so why?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Ben M]

Ooh boy, I see another Mac vs PC debate coming on.

Firstly I'd avoid any of those Avid interfaces and get yourself a good AD/DA. There are too many to go through. I've just purchased the new Apogee Symphony I/O's...there are cheaper options but mostly you'd have to use a combo of digital and analog in's/out's to get 16 in/out's unless you grab these more high end interfaces.

(cough, cough)
And then buy a mac pro to run PT9.

The end

[JulienG]

There's the HD I/O which doesn't have pre's, and you no longer need to pay for DSP (although the "HD Native" card is still rather expensive.

Otherwise the Apogee Symphony I/O is probably the best out there at the moment. Some of the MoTU kit might work as well, but only the PCI ones (HD192 & 24I/O) skip the pre's.

[Ben M]

PT's was developed for the mac platform. And while it works on PC, I find that it's a smoother ride in Mac.

The PT algorithms are happier that way.

[Kurt]

I'd consider putting off buying a firewire interface. USB3 is just becoming common on motherboards, see if I/O manufacturers start taking it up in any serious way.

Whilst I'm sure Apogee and similar are great, if you've had no audio quality issues with the C-Port why not save your pennies and go for Presonus or similar level gear? Similarly, if CEP/Audition do all you need, why change?

[DarkSky]

As JulienG has said, the Avid HD I/O has 16 inputs and outputs, is rack mountable and has no preamps. so it seems to fit your criteria.

Failing that, I'd suggest you look at the Aurora 16, which can either interface with an Avid HD Core card using the LT_HD interface option, or with a Lynx card (eg the AES16e, which is a PCIe interface card). Either way, will get you the required analog inputs and outputs into Pro Tools.

[13thbeach]

I run hd native with a lynx aurora 16 and an 8 core Mac pro
And it kicks ass. I'd stay away from anything with onboard
Preamps.

[Junction]

The Motu 24I/O with 24 balanced analog in and outs is very cost effective, comes with a PCI firewire card, haven't tested it with PT on a PC or Mac, but I am led to believe it works.

[ChrisW]

I'm using a Lynx Aurora 8 (nearly bought the 16) which I think sounds GREAT. I've dumped Pro Tools recently to go Logic. Caveat: I'm primarily working with midi and recording audio one or two tracks at a time. So that's just to say I don't have experience running the Aurora with PT.
Mac is definitely a more costly platform than PC, but in my experience most things Mac are plug and play. I don't have personal PC experience, but being involved with a software product I see more confusion and tech headaches with PC users, probably because the system is more open and there are more variables to deal with.
From the not so deep research I did when putting my music computer together, I'd say all the major players offer a good quality AD/DA unit, RME, Apogee, Lynx and Prism. I ended up mainly looking at the Aurora because it had the 16ch version and didn't include mic/pres.

[Barney Loveland]

Nother vote for Lynx Aurora 16 here with HD card into tools. I had an Apogee Rosetta 800 which was great too.

[stosostu]

Thanks for all the replies, that certainly gives me something to look into.

[The Tasmanian]

Or the SSL - madi extreme
24 in/out, analog plus lightpipe to expand ins/outs is around $3k with the card,
And great sounding converters.

[Junction]

Or the SSL - madi extreme
24 in/out, analog plus lightpipe to expand ins/outs is around $3k with the card,
And great sounding converters.

I am confused, isn't the madi xtreme just the pci card out to madi which is around 3K, then you need a madi to analog I/O, like the ssl xlogic alpha link, which is going to be another 4k or so?

[Alistair]

Yeah the Madi extreme is just the card- but it's often named that as a bundle. Either way, the card is only a few hundred.


http://www.turramusic.com.au/pages/CatalogueItem.aspx?CIID=4006

[Junction]

Oh thats a good deal. BTW the I/O was designed/manufactured by Soundscape from Belgium, who SSL bought over, so not really SSL to the core, but nevertheless should be good quality.

[NathS101]

+1 mac pro, protools HD & lynx aurora 16 here
the lynx is a very clean converter and a cheaper alternative to a full blown symphony with 16ch analogue I/O.
if used with protools HD/native cards, the lynx can run in wide mode which utilises both analogue and digital inputs simultaneously allowing 32 I/O however in this configuration only one interface can be used on each pci card...
the SSL looks like a good option too

[mylesgm]

another happy pt hd2+aurora 16 user. Easy, sounds good and flexible too.

m

[Damien]

mmm looks like HD2 and lynx 16 is the new default t rock standard... we have that as well (with apogee AD16X and UA 2192)..

[Ender]

Bob were you planning on using this set up with a laptop or mobile rig of some sort? Similar to what Kurt mentioned: since you asked about USB/Firewire, if you're avoiding the PCI/PCIe solutions due to extra cost I'd also advise holding off until the dust settles a little more on Thunderbolt acceptance in the audio community, especially if you are planning on investing in the primo end of converter territory. Thunderbolt is touted as being 12x faster than Firewire 800, and 20x faster than USB2.0 (according to Apple's website), so it should offer some real benefits in terms of audio interfacing. If (when) it or USB3.0 catches on, any non PCIe compatible solution could potentially be superceded within the next year or two, if that's a consideration.

This is probably another vote for something like Auroras, which provide a great expansion idea in the LT cards, so this should allow them to release a new Thunderbolt card, new drivers and off it goes I'm assuming. This seems like a great model Lynx have here. I noticed Apogee had a note in the latest AT saying their Symphony I/O was future proofed since the converters are independent of the chassis.. true, but you'd still need to buy another chassis (if you were not already running it via PCIe that is). It's worth a thought anyway, depending on how much you're thinking of investing in this regard. If you can make the jump to PCIe, this is probably the way to go and avoids this issue.

PT9 (LE, but not LE) is nice, and definitely can be used with any soundcard. If you're taking the big step to PT HD or HD Native, that will limit the choices a bit in terms of converters but all the options already mentioned would be great. That pretty firmly plonks you in primo conversion category. As Kurt suggested, there are a bunch of more affordable options that may do what you need, but depends how deep you want to go

Machine wise, if you are going mobile, I'd say definitely go for an Apple MacBook Pro - even though they are still a premium price, it's much more competitive than it used to be compared to an equal quality PC alternative, and they are a really nice, and very reliable (hardware wise) machine in my experience. Likewise for iMac if you don't want PCIe options, those i5 models really are a zippy beast and cheap to boot if you factor a 27" monitor in, but again I'd possibly wait until it had a Thunderbolt port included.

Compared to MacPro though, I'm not sure a lot of the legacy reasons Mac's are picked over PC always apply now. Windows has come a long way in terms of stability (ye ol' BSOD, fare thee well - mostly), so in recent experience I'm not sure I could rule out PCs in this regard. Windows 7 is much more usable and "plug and play" than earlier WinOS, and while I prefer OSX I have to admit the bits of OSX Microsoft borrowed have been pretty well implemented in Windows 7. Hardware-wise, although building a really comparative component level PC may be a little cheaper, the price difference may not be as major as you think, and could come with little or no after sales service. Apple machines have the benefit of having all the components selected and tested for compatibility, which is a big reason they are reliable and a big plus if you're not into building PCs already. Also, Applecare is a great insurance if you're using this machine for work in case of hardware failure.

I still prefer Mac and OSX and don't own a PC (just work on them most days). To me OSX feels lighter, less like work and usually runs great... but while I'd personally recommend Apple, I'd say unless you really want to try Mac, or have decided to use Apogee/Metric Halo/Logic or something else Mac exclusive, I reckon there's less reasons to obsessively recommend Mac/OSX in general provided you get a quality, audio dedicated PC built, and keep Windows clean.

[stosostu]

Once again, thatnks for the replies, particularly Dan. A very informative post.

I don't want a mobile/laptop setup, it is for use in my studio, so either a PC or a Mac, I'm guessing a G5 but I know nothing about Apple stuff so I will need to do some reading first.

I had not considered the PCIe route, that is what my current St Audio C-Ports use, and I thought it might be a bit old fashioned since all the Avid stuff, plus others, seemed to be USB or Firewire. I would be more than happy with PCIe. Do PCIe cards fit into Apple computers?

At this stage the Lynx Aurora 16 looks like the go, and I am leaning more towards taking a leap into the unknown with an Apple.

It is such a pity though that there are no newer drivers for the C-Ports, I was using them last night and they do sound OK to me and I have gotten used to the latency and know all the work arounds.

On that subject, is latency still an issue with the newer interfaces and/or PT9?

[Kurt]

I'm in the same boat with my Steinberg VSL2020.. I have put off buying a new computer because there are only drivers for XP.

[ChrisW]

I would go with MacPro as a minimum. No point in being behind the borderline obsolete 8 ball from the start (with G5). There are some good deals with older reconditioned Mac Pros.
I would recommend using the Lynx with a dedicated card for the MacPro and PT. I'm using the firewire version (because I haven't gone macPro yet, still using an iMac) and there are issues.

[Ender]

Well... A point worth noting on the WinOS side, is that devices that don't have official drivers for a newer OS doesn't mean it won't actually work. I saw a post saying C-Port worked on Vista, which means it should have a high chance of also working on Win7. As with any internet posts though, I'm not sure how valid that claim was. They did mention a driver name (DSP24_Driver_ 04_05_27_ 84_1.zip)...

Having said that, even if it did work it wouldn't be 'supported', so it'd be hard to recommend this as a money-maker business machine solution. If your machine isn't too vintage (PC's don't have the good sort of vintage unfortunately), and you do want to stick with the C-port, you could consider doing whatever cheap PC upgrades you can and rebuilding a fresh XP install. Depending on your processing needs, this could be ok (albeit not as fun as getting some new stuff!)

If you do need a new machine tho, it starts to narrow options. PCI slots are "old school" and have been replaced with PCIe (e for express, must be better), making older PCI cards (like the C-port's I guess) redundant at machine upgrade time. Unfortunately I'd say you'd rule out a new Mac/C-Ports combo too since new Macs don't support PCI cards, plus I didnt see any Mac support for C-port out there anyway. So not super promising for the ol' c-port going forward!

PCIe is a great connectivity solution in terms of latency, with a huge throughput compared to USB2.0 and Firewire 800. Its a solid, long-ish term solution, and is the recommended method to connect high end interfaces, where possible.

Going PCIe does usually incur extra costs though depending on what you choose (eg. the Apogee Symphony64 card is ballpark $1100) and this is on top of the interface you choose, and PCIe based interfaces also tend to sit in the pricier category anyway. Non-PCIe options can be more affordable, but have some limitations in terms of latency and possibly track counts (depending on needs and sample rate, etc). With that in mind and looking at the options available in the higher end, the SSL option mentioned is great value for what you get.

With a large project studio market out there, companies are trying to make their units as flexible as possible, which is why even at the top end you see some companies offer something USB/Firewire compatible to meet the lower price point and usable with stuff like iMacs. So while Avid does offer some of these interfaces, most the higher end interfaces (Avid HD, Apogee, Lynx et al) are more targeted to PCIe to ensure best latency, track counts and reliability, etc. etc.

Computer and conversion options aside, Avid really opened it's doors with PT9 since it will run on most interfaces now, as well as adding some key missing features it always lacked in LE. So for your software choice, while there's other options out there I reckon PT9 is a pretty good bet if you were heading that way already.

[thephil]

hmmm all very interesting stuff......I myself am considering the move to Pro Tools Native but am likewise a bit irked by the price.

However with the strong aussie dollar and the power of the internets and Visa it looks more attainable.

Anyone had any experience with buying Pro Tools from the states?

[stosostu]

Dan, I've also read about folks using C-Ports on Vista, but the setup for these things is not straight forward, even on the OSs they have drivers for, so I don't think I'd want to risk the possible flakeyness when someone is paying for my time.

I have seriously considered getting a PC built specifically for audio recording and installing XP Pro, so that I can continue with my current setup, but it feels a bit like restoring an old house, they look really nice but they need a constant input of money and time and are still not as practical and user friendly as a new house.

From my quick look at prices it would appear to me to be in the $5000-$7000 for an Apple computer and 16 I/O interface, which, when compared to a tape solution, is not bad at all. I mean, I just spent $1000 on new heads for the 8 track Scully..................

[ChrisW]

Anyone had any experience with buying Pro Tools from the states?

Just a personal opinion, but I try to buy somewhat cutting edge, prone to bugs, technological products closer to home.
I've bought a ton of outboard hardware from The States, plus drums, mics, synths etc......
I bought my Lynx Aurora in Sydney last year. Day one worked fine, day two.... no sound?
So I took it back to the retailer who put it into the workshop. In the meantime they lent me another very nice DA/AD (nice one guys). A week later my Lynx was back and I've had no problems with it since.
Pro Tools arrives from The States, it doesn't seem to work as described? Nightmare scenario.

(Ack, I'm starting to post like K Rudd).

[Alistair]

I agree with your point- but I think software is the least likely out of anything to be 'DOA'. There might be compatibility issues, but short of a DVD arriving scratched, I can't see what the problem would be.

I've checked it out, there a couple of very cheap offers for PT9- but I don't know the software and am always a little unsure of whether it's the right version.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AVID-DIGIDESIGN-PRO-TOOLS-9-FULL-VERSION-PROTOOLS-/270729323857?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f08b9a551

[The Tasmanian]

its interesting that HD native is $3885 here - yet on the bay $2300 or even less - and the AU $ is $107!

[Ben M]

its interesting that HD native is $3885 here - yet on the bay $2300 or even less - and the AU $ is $107!

Chris...I bought HD native recently (locally) and paid right in the middle of those 2 figures but when the dollar was down a bit (.99 ish)
How's the dollar now?

Is it a case of retail store vs ebay (net store)? Shop fronts are big overheads these days.

[thephil]

Yeah I'm not worried about the software side at all. I'm looking at a native card and then finding a 192 or something.

Some of these us eBay prices are hard to top