No headphones for vocal session

[Ben M]

Hi everyone
I have an Italian singer in the studio tomorrow singing some classic Italian tunes from yesteryear.
He would prefer to sing without headphones to the backing tracks.

Many moons ago I did a vocal session with speakers running off the cue send as monitors for the singer, then phase reversed to get rid of the backing only to leave mostly vocal. I did this with NS10's from memory. I can't remember the setup very well. I'm sure it was pretty simple. It's just been a while since I did it and wanted to get the setup right.
Has anybody done this setup with vocals lately? There was something about using a cardioid condenser and the speakers being positioned in a particular way??? Possibly even phase reversing the speakers. It's starting to come back to me a bit.....

cheers

[reddirt]

Ben, if you phase reverse one spkr and make sure they are exactly equidistant from the mic, you'll be surprised by the usability of it . Place them in the best rejection points of the pattern you are using as well to further underline it. - experimentation is your friend here.
The other way is to use a fig 8 placing a speaker in the null side point which is very effective
Cheers, Ross

[Ben M]

Thanks Ross

The best rejection point on the cardioid condenser will be directly behind the mic. Can I just use one speaker, then perhaps record the backing signal with no singing after the singing has been done, then reverse that signal to cancel the backing mix?

[The Tasmanian]

Ben you can put one monitor straight behind the mic -or 2 monitors on top of each other.(but more bottom end)
The only thing that will ever become a problem is stuff like hi hats/shakers/cymbals /acoustics - hi freq stuff.
To be carefully sure - I usually reduce these a little into the speakers so that there is less chance of future phase / smearing problems.
And make check that behind the singer is not reflective in any way - as the speaker can reflect back to the front of the mic after bouncing off surfaces.

[GlennS]

Depending on what the singer requires, you may also find that, without reversing phase or anything like that, the bleed from the speakers could be quite acceptable.

[Linear]

If the singer wanted to be in the same room without cans, I'd lose the condenser and employ a Shure SM7.

How it manages to reject so much ambient sound while at the same time sounding so great is a mystery to me.

Chris

[The Tasmanian]

How did you go Ben?

[Chris H]

My mate Norm!
(click on the attachement)

[Ben M]

How did you go Ben?

I'm sorry to say that it's a bit of an anticlimax. I handed some headphones to my italian opera singer and he said nothing.... so that was the way that went. Phew! However I'd like to do certain vocals this way in the future, so I'm keen to make it a permanent setup for vocalist.

I've done many vocals in the control room with a 58/SM7 and the speakers blaring but this wasn't going to work for this session. I needed that ol' trick of canceling the backing otherwise it's just too much spill. I almost needed 2 mics to capture his performance. I love the passionate way italians sing. It's so infectious.
I very much like my SM7's but again not for an opera singer who moves his head around too much to focus his vocal down the diaphragm. SM7's work great for that punchy down the mic vocal approach. As you guysth know...

Thanks to all for their replies.

[The Tasmanian]

If you need to do it in the future, the 2 monitors on top of each other is really good for vibe - its like singing into a mini mono PA. I stopped doing the 2 monitors in the control room when I found this approach - as there seemed to be less spill problems than 2 speakers L and R in the control room.

[Chris H]

I was reading another forum the other day where Bob Olhsson highly recommended a Beyer M88 for vox in this situation for its ability to reject the spill from monitors. He also stated being able to cut in overdubs later with a Neuman 87 without any real problems, with the caveat that the 88 is a bit more prone to sibilance though.

[Ben M]

If you need to do it in the future, the 2 monitors on top of each other is really good for vibe - its like singing into a mini mono PA. I stopped doing the 2 monitors in the control room when I found this approach - as there seemed to be less spill problems than 2 speakers L and R in the control room.

This sounds like a really good way of doing it Chris. I'm thinking that doing this, plus recording the cue mix back through the vocal mic with no vox, then reversing it, will further reduce the spill. With a bit of fader adjustment.
I like the stacked mono speaker idea. If you need to push the monitors in line with the vox, the extra energy in the speakers will be there.
From my experience this really works best with a high energy rock track.

Thanks a million for the tip on that.

Ben

[Ben M]

I was reading another forum the other day where Bob Olhsson highly recommended a Beyer M88 for vox in this situation for its ability to reject the spill from monitors. He also stated being able to cut in overdubs later with a Neuman 87 without any real problems, with the caveat that the 88 is a bit more prone to sibilance though.

That wasn't the motown sessions was it Chris?
It saddens me to say.....I hate my 2 M88's (TG's).
I loved using the older M88's, they are the one's.
With no intention of saying anything bout anything....Phil Collins used the M88 on vocals on many occasions. High rejection with hifi sound. They have a boost freq response complimenting the bass and treble with proximity. Probably why they found their way into many a kick drum.
However the SM7 will take the prize on vocals me thinks because of the neutral response and flattening/filling of the vocal sound.
Any links to your Bob Olhsson forum post? What a legend.

[Chris H]

Yes he was talking about his Motown days. Here's the link
http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.com/ ... 88/#post16
David Bock and Ben Sneesby moderate this mic section on Terry Manning's Pro Recording Web forum. It formed recently after "something" hit the fan at Pro Sound Web.

[DarkSky]

... David Bock and Ben Sneesby moderate this mic section on Terry Manning's Pro Recording Web forum. It formed recently after "something" hit the fan at Pro Sound Web.

I hadn't heard about that, Chris. Can you elaborate?

[Chris H]

... David Bock and Ben Sneesby moderate this mic section on Terry Manning's Pro Recording Web forum. It formed recently after "something" hit the fan at Pro Sound Web.

I hadn't heard about that, Chris. Can you elaborate?

I don't have any "inside" info and haven't made it my business to find out what went down. From what I gather, It happened leading up to when PSW was shutting down the original site because of regular maintenance issues and were going to re open with another web hosting Co. As i have gathered Fletcher was making a few changes that were not going down well with quite a few of the moderators. Some went to Terry's new forum some stayed at PSW, Ross Hogarth and Brad Blackwood seemed to get stuck in the middle ground.