Recording bass

[Barney Loveland]

Thought i'd kick off a thread about bass, not because I would like a basstastic sub forum but just to share ideas.

I have been a steady user of the Avalon U5 for 10+ yrs. I own other boxes or have owned others but keep coming back to this one. Others i've used are TD-1, Neves various, 6176, Lil freq, Trimax rack job, Pickstone tube, Countryman, BSS AR133 (the old one that looks like a jiffy box on the bottom), Sansamp, Demeter, Aguilar 750.

For some tracks the sansamp in front of the U5 is killer, other times not so.

Have only recently ventured into recording amp territory. Keen to hear peoples dos, don'ts, likes of amp recording. I've usually not tracked one due to space, time etc. I'm keen to do more now that there's a B15 in the studio.

Then there's the bass talk, who's into P bass', Jazz bass, Stingray et al. Any other favs?

For those interested i'm also a double bass player. Latest chain that is floating my boat is 67, AEA RPQ or custom prototype pre. Also like the R122 a lot.

[DwaneHollands]

I'll add a few cents to the mix.

I've found the Cort GB34a to be a great solid sounding bass. Has a great solid tone and it's quite cheap. My mate had one for a while and I finally bought my own, which I've found is a little more resonant. Passive pickups with an active eq. Treble and bass. Quite a variation of tones you can get out of it. (about $400 bucks so pretty cheap for a solid instrument)

I waited for some time before 'investing' in a new bass. I had an absolute rubbish 5 string bass which was almost impossible to get any type of solid sound out of. (really hollow sounding). So I spent months experimenting with trying to get a solid sound (yeah I'm going to say solid a few more times before I'm finished

The API 512c preamp's pretty good as a DI. Had mixed results using UBK Fatso, but now I'm avoiding compressing while DI'ing. The final solution with that rubbish bass, was to re-amp through Marshall JMP1>Marshall JCM 800>Marshall 1960 Lead 4 x 12 and close micing on-axis with the Axis Carrillon ribbon. That gave a real solid bottom end energy that was tight, but transparent enough to not get it the way. Hard to describe, but man as soon as I got that result with that rubbish bass, I knew that was the max I could get out of it.

Then I bought the Cort....then the little labs VOG....then Waves Ren Bass. I've yet to re-amp the cort...

it's kinda my wild card...haha

[adamcal]

I have the U5 as well, but actually prefer the much cheaper Radial JDI. usually into something neve.

[Chinagraf]

I use an old countryman into a shep SN8 or Neve through a rev F 1176. I used an Adesigns Reddi a while back and loved it, keep meaning to get one. I'm pretty much a P-bass guy, got an early 80's one, and a G&L I don't use much. My brother has a nice Stingray I borrow now and then. I don't amp much, but do send to the odd pedal.

[Barney Loveland]

Adam - what do you prefer the JDI and pre combo for over the U5.

Andy - do have a B15 and don't record it? I'm about 50/50 p bass/j bass.

[Drumstruck]

Does anyone play Rickenbacker bass nowadays? Loved Chris Squire's sound on that

[toddd]

My standard bass chain at the mo' is Di through API -> Auditronics EQ -> AWA Big1. Thats only because I don't have a killer bass rig. I have heard some great results using a Bassman 100 through an old Ampeg 8x10 - i will definitely be getting that combination at some stage.

I own a 'Highway 1' series P-Bass. Picked it up fairly cheap - $750. Not the best bass I've ever heard, but solid as, and sounds like a P-Bass.

A moog can be good too... ha!

[GlennS]

I've found that the easiest way to get bass to sit in a mix is to record it through an amp & mic it with a tube mic.
Apparently Andy Johns' favourite bass mic was the C12A. I've tried the C12B and that certainly is the best I've used, Beesneez Jade a close second.
I have an amp always set up so that when I get tracks in to mix that only have DI bass I can quickly reamp it if I think that will benefit the track. Often I solely use the amp track in the mix.
It's all about the player of course, but for some reason I find Stingrays hard to work with & Precisions & Jazz basses easiest, generally speaking.

Btw, if you don't have a "killer bass rig" try a killer guitar rig. Just don't kill it with volume.

[Ben M]

Does anyone play Rickenbacker bass nowadays? Loved Chris Squire's sound on that

I really like the ricky bass sound too. It's a much tighter bass sound than most other basses.. so it seems to glue better. I recorded one last year but I haven't seen one for a while though. Maybe they'll have a comeback. I like the action on them.
Anyone have one for sale??

[Barney Loveland]

I've not seen one brought in to a session. The only ones i remember trying years ago felt terrible and sounded not so good. Plus the whole look thing, personal pref I guess. But Mccartney/Squires sound good on one.

[Ben M]

Barney...I think they look kinda sexy.
Add some sans amp, a juicy valve mic and compressor and voila!

P-bass is probably the most popular bass I see come into the studio. And for good reason. They're a good all round bass that suits a lot of styles.

In the past 6 months I've had 3 or 4 double basses in the studio. I love the warmth they impart.

Mostly though, recording a good bass sound for me relies on the player rather than the bass or other equipment. A good player will always make bass easier to record. Someone who plays with great feel and natural compression fingers is tops in my books and makes my day easier.

[adamcal]

Adam - what do you prefer the JDI and pre combo for over the U5.

I just think its warmer, the avalon is great, but never excites me. I also find it a slight PITA needing 240V and its physical size.

for something clean I will go to the avalon, but anything vibey the JDI.

For mics I like the M88, RE20, TLM49, AT 4047, and R84 sometimes.

[Chinagraf]

Barney I don't own a bass amp. I'm more of a guitarist but have a few basses to play on tracks if I need live bass. My brother has a couple, this GK one that I love the sound of that I get him to bring if he is playing and we want an amp. I have a pair of JBL 4430's out in reception I us to check club mixes I do on, if I need a speaker I sometimes feed one of those and mic it. Fet 47 or MG UM70, mainly cause that's the 2 good bass cab mics we have here. It will be a reamp. not fed live cause I like to have the di for the low mids upwards and speaker for the lows.

[Lee Cardan]

REDDI > Tube Tech CL1B doing some slow attack, mid release, 3:1, aiming for only a few dB of GR
For me this is a killer tracking chain. The REDDI is super clear, bright, punchy, and seems to energise the signal just how I like it. The tube tech keeps everything in check, and has a fantastic colour it adds to the signal. When it comes to mixing it's LA2A.

I've only recently gotten into reamping and am finding that I can add a lot more roundness and realism to the bass sound, especially if the amp's being driven a little. I'll close mic the cab with a 421 / RE-20 / M88 but am finding I rarely use much of this track - I seem to get a lot more from a LDC about a meter in front (Gefell UM930 in this case)

A HUGE aspect of the bass sound for me is the the right instrument with the right strings, in the right hands. Hands we don't always get to pick and choose, but I've got a Fender Jazz I've always loved and it gets used on many projects. With some nice flatwounds (and sometimes a little foam at the bridge to slightly mute the strings - love this!) I can always find a great place for it to sit in the mix. In saying that, I was recently blown away by the tone of the current issue Fender P-basses. Got to get me one of these!

Oh and if I'm tracking slap bass, these are a must:
Brand new steel strings
Masking tape on the pickups
MIC the bass itself! KM-69 or any SDC, or LDC, but this makes the sound

[GlennS]

Lee, what does the masking tape on the pickups do?

[Chris H]

Never used the Avalon DI but i have always used a miced amp to get the top end as it always adds something the Di can't get in the highs and the di adds something the amp doesn't have in the lows. Thats what i find with how i do things, ...... mixed to taste.........I would be interested if others find this as well.
So i always record Di and amp, or re amp on mixdown.
Mostly I use a TC 1140 for DI and for mic a bit of a selection depending on a few things; AKG D19 , Neumann 67 or AT4050, Cad E200, or STC 4033 usually with the ribbon only, but sometimes combined with the dynamic capsule. It's very handy to have the choice of sound and pattern in a ribbon mic. I sometimes use a small valve amp for bass duties if it's my choice as it tightens up the low end.
For double bass I use two mics. On the body i use the STC 4033 and on the neck i use an SDC usually an AKG 451 for a harder topier sound or a Neumann KM 85 for something a bit softer. This mic goes high near the head stock or for the impact it's positioned a bit lower and aimed near where the player's finger hits the board after the note. I love mixing that sound in for the material it works on.

[lonearranger]

Lee, what does the masking tape on the pickups do?

My guess is that when you are slapping, the strings would sometimes hit the pole pieces of the pickups and generate an unnatural click, like tapping a pickup with screwdriver. The masking tape would stop the the metal to metal contact and reduce this effect, being paper based, in theory would not have any impact to the other sounds of the pickup.

My other bass tip is to mix in a skanky sounding bass (driven epi jnr or similar small tube gtr amp that does not have a precious speaker), with a nicely recorded bass, for things where you need the bass sounding more edgy.

Cheers

[bellchilton]

Vintage P Bass>Reddi>LA3A= Rich Creamery Butter mmmmmm

OR, Vintage P Bass>Vintage Ampeg SVT classic>Bock 195>Pultec eqp1a>LA3A= Rich Creamery Butter mmmmmmmm

[HA_DA_JA]

Being a Bass player myself I am disappointed with recently entering the fray of recording bass. The process is so different then live playing. I too own a 64 P bass and a 71 jazz but I hate playing these live. I just love the modern sounds of Lakelands, Warwicks and G&L's but I cant seem to capture that great sound of live playing onto "tape".
The Jazz and P bass when used in recording sound is so not modern, but I see a lot recording bass players using them to record. I also see that their recording chain is quite coloured by extra tube gear and other outboard gear further down the signal chain. I need to experiment more. Where is time for this...
I too have owned Demeter, Avalon, and other tasty Bass DI's but at the moment I have settled for the Radial JDI through an older TLA audio tube pre, Speck Mp5 (transformer based) and/or my Neve preamps. These have yielded results that have been a great starting point. I do own a BSS AR-133 DI tucked away somewhere in the box I must give that try out.
I am yet to try amping as I dont have a lot of room in the bedroom studio, so I am not too sure of the quality of the captured sound but that should be next on the list of things to try.

So I have read so far that some of you use the Di for the low end and the AMP sound for the rest, and then there has been comment for the other way around.
Would anyone like to talk through why they do this?

Cheers

[HA_DA_JA]

Actually I have a LA5 I got Rob to massively mod last year I should try that on the bass now that you mentioned the LA3. It does wonderful things to guitars and vocals when tracking and lightly used.
I am surprised lately just how nice things can sound if different outboard gear is just trickled over the top of things.
Its like expensive Maple syrup just lighted poured over two French crepes filled with cream cheese, sultanas, lemon juice and vanilla, with a little serving of raspberry coulis and natural vanilla bean ice cream.

[adamcal]

The thing to watch with the LA5 is the fixed and fast attack and release times. you may get some distortion with bass and a lot of compression. unless it has been modded to be slower than usual.

My favourite place for a LA5 is on snare controlling spikes.

the LA5 was designed to be a fast peak limiter, like an early dominator or L2 type of thing.

[waitup]

Where possible, a P or a Jazz into a good tube amp, turned up loud with a 47 fet in front is what I like. Did a session a few weeks ago with that combo into a JLM dual 99V into the Anthony Demaria Labs 1500 and it sounded nice. Unfortunately a lot of the time bassists don't have great amps... Also, a who can play in time, in tune and evenly with good tone is useful. On that note If any of you guys need a rock solid bass player with a P and a Jazz with great tone and touch, then forum member 'Pete' is your guy. Makes recording bass a breeze.

I've gone off DIs on bass for the time being. I don't even record one as a "safety" most of the time. Is anyone using the old sans amp pedal?

[Linear]

Maybe I'm getting lazy (I hope not...?) but I reckon any DI half-decent DI would do the trick.

I use a 2-610 or even an RNP, or one of Rob's missing links into a quad eight or AWA. Track it with loads of headroom and a tiny bit of compression.

More important I think is the mixing - once you know how you can mix it then any old bass sound into something that sits nicely.

Here's my trick - split the bass signal out to two channels. Compress one through a Vari-mu (Gates or AWA G58), cut the super low end (like HP around 80) and use this for the bass 'tone'. Shape midrange accordingly.

Take the second channel and limit it through a 2254 or Distressor. Then lose all top/midrange, cut 45Hz and boost 63hz until your desk can't take it anymore. That anchors the bottom end so no matter what's playing, there is the same amount of low end.

If it's too clean, reamp it through a B15 (= distortion) or stick a third channel through a culture vulture. Easy!

Chris

[obutcher]

Interesting Chris. I've been reading in a lot of places where engineers on big albums have lately been recording bass through a 2-610 and maybe using a Distressor or an LA-2A for compression. I've been using our JLM99v for bass lately, or even the Avalon 2022. Next time I'll try out your technique, it sounds like fun!

[Barney Loveland]

Cool bunch of things to think about and try guys, nice.

Masking tape over pickups??? The bass needs a set up, or a different bassist needed. I've never seen Flea, Larry Graham, Louis Johnson, Marcus Miller et al use masking tape and they are pretty amazing exponents of that technique.

Dale - Yes some of the modern basses don't seem to translate so well recorded. Maybe that's why the old P and J's are so popular? I have a Sadowsky 5 that is great live and recorded but most of the time it's vintage j or p. I think sometimes they are just too much, as in too much of a good thing, whereas the older basses like a growly/snarly P has enough low end (or added low end) and a mid range poke that sits nicely in the track.

One thing about the B15 is that it seems to make all bass' sound great. Some other amps don't seem to do that. A Fender bassman 100 sounds thin and uber scooped with a modern bass like the Sadowsky, Lakland. Maybe this is where recording the right amp can smooth out some of the more modern sounding instruments? Maybe some of the more coloured comps could work too?

Although i'm not a fan of tracking through a compressor. And I did read somewhere a quote about a James Taylor album (Hourglass) with Jimmy Johnson on bass and the engineer talked about not needing any comp on bass when you have a great player. (might have been in the book Behind the Glass?)

[Pete]

I have to agree with Barney about not tracking through a compressor (or at least not monitoring my playing with compression.) It throws of my touch and sense of dynamics.

I find having both a P with flats and a J with rounds gives you enough range tonally for most things. I am after a junky hollowbody too, possibly with tapewounds for some real 60s/serge gainsbourg/boogaloo sounds.

It's great to hear everyones thoughts on bass recording, check out this forum also for some insight: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f194/. Justin had recorded and co-written with some of the biggest artists (and many not so big but awesome) of the last 20 years. Beck, NIN, Macy Gray, AIR.. etc etc

I also convinced myself that owning a vintage b15 will solve any bass tone problems I have. Is it true, Barney? For the sake of my bank account please say it isn't so..

[HA_DA_JA]

I see Peter that the link you provided showed Justin using a Radial JDI as his main DI. Hmmm.

[Pete]

I think the radial is one of his favorites. There's a thread in there about the reddi being the ultimate though. Also the mxr m-80.

Also is a big fan of using multiple amps/DIs to get a bass tone. There were some ridiculous shots of him in the studio with a b15, an svt, and a guitar amp or two!

[Damien]

ill ignore the bass, the player and the strings (these are 90 % of the sound)...

i usually record the player in the control room, straight into the DI input of the LA610. ill split the input amd mic an old farty bassman 10.

this is my chain most of the time. this works well at mix time. other chains include the neve/jlm mic pre di units
rob made for me (the turtlerock auction units), or a V67/rob/jlm di/mic pre.

i prefer flat wound strings....nice and fat.

[Barney Loveland]

The JDI is pretty good, i've used them live and on some recording. From the inside of the one I opened it was a Jensen tranny. Pretty easy to diy if you're that way inclined.

Haven't used the reddi. Have played through the Evil Twin eclair, it was pretty good. But next to the U5, TD1 they were all good.

Pete- I haven't put a mic infront of the B15 yet unfortunately! But it has been a dream to own one for years. One thing i've been doing though is losing time, i'll switch it on to have a quick play and just keep playing. Jazz, Pbass, sadowsky all sound great through it. I haven't had a a bit of gear that inspiring for a while. If you're in Melb drop me a line.