Should I sell my tape machine?

[Lee Cardan]

Howdy

My 1978 MCI JH-16 2" 24 track is in great condition, but doesn't get anywhere near as much use as it should
Firstly, I'm just not doing enough work that demands it, it's simply fast in and out for people, come track drums and bass and finish off elsewhere for example.

I've experimented with hitting tape on mixdown but don't feel that it adds anything
For me, the real benefit is tracking to it with top notch musicians who can perform take after take, and then the easy mix that follows is a pleasure.

I love the workflow, but it's just not all that often (ie, not at all) that it gets used
It's still early days for me here and I'd hate to regret getting rid of it, but in the back of my mind is the fact that it'll pretty much sit here and not get used, it needs to be used not just because it deserves it but because it'll die a slow horrible death otherwise

Alignments I can do
about 15 reels of used tape I do have

Only time tape has been used is when i've specified it be used on a live tracking session.. once
I've tracked to it plenty myself, and mixed through on occassion, but that's about it

Money isn't really the motivating factor here, I'm just thinking of what's best to do

what's best to do?

[rick]

for what its worth (not heaps ) and what you can do with that money
unless you need the space or it doesnt work properly
definately keep it

if two or three bands use it this year and one of those bands tells their mates how good it sounded
its money in the bank for you !

if on the other hand you dont want to use it , are leery of its condition and its not up your alley to restore it and keep it maintained
sell it while you still can !

[norm]

Personally I would keep it. They are so complicated no one is going to remanufacture them again. I have amassed 5 of which 3 are in top nick and the other two for parts. I have also brought all the head blocks ect I can lay my hands on. When the market comes back for their use (and it will) They are going to be very difficult to obtain and service and will be a great asset to your business to have. Who thru out the U47,s 67,s Limiters and rack gear, cutting lathes ect. There will allways be a market for nostalgia. Regards Norm

[Lee Cardan]

well I decided to sell
thanks kindly for your thoughts guys

I definitely see use for tape in my future, but now simply isn't the time. I think be on in good hands where it'll get good use is what needs to be for this one, in time it'll come back to me

[Linear]

I'd sell it.

Unless you're a die-hard tape fan, and are prepared to spend lots of money on it for little added value, then it doesn't make economic sense. They are just ~so~ damn complicated, given the fact that unlike most other studio stuff they're electro-mechanical. So much to go wrong, so much effort to keep them going. Plus most things on them wear out eventually, and if anything intermittent use just kills the irreplaceable parts even more.

Also I don't think tape machines will ever be in the same category as U47's and outboard tube limiters - digital just has too many benefits that supersede tape. Microphone technology hasn't come that far since the 50's and 60's - recording mediums and storage has.

That said though, I'll never sell my Ampexes

Chris

[Linear]

ps Mat R you should buy this...

[Futureman]

Does endless audio's 'clasp' fit into the equation?
Rick.. What's your verdict?

[rick]

i will give the whole future of analog tape machines and its uses a big dim
fucked if i really know flag

[musikwerks]

Do you use it... often?

Does it make you money?

If the answer is "no" to number 1 then it's probably "no" to number 2 as well.

My philosophy these days is that if it doesn't pull it's weight or contribute to the bottom line then it's gone. Even if I love it.

[ChrisW]

I can see merit when recording drums.
I know a few of the sample products have been recorded to tape, or rather they go into the tape machine and right back out again into Pro Tools..... otherwise the tape costs would be enormous.

[The Tasmanian]

But there is also the flip side

The way I look at it is if everyone else is gradually dumping a format that we all know sounds great, it could be wise to keep one good maintained tape machine in your studio at least for the forseeable future. They are not that hard to keep maintained.
And - if your only getting $5k for a machine, then surely you would get at least that income from future clients wanting to use tape. If you were getting $20k for it then it may be another story
Reminds me of when studios started dumping all their LA2a's 1176's Gates, Awa's,Neves,Valve Neumanns etc thinking that the maintainance could be avoided by dumping these and replacing them with modern more reliable IC based equipment. Now they have to hire it to use it again - or pay 10 or 20 times more to re-buy it.
If you have a big studio that records mainly rock music then it could be crazy business decision to dump tape - if you are only getting $5k for a well maintained machine that you already own and have invested in.
But if you have a home studio, or a small facility - then it is a luxury, like a good bottle of red wine.
And also to consider - they could go up in value from here?

[Lee Cardan]

at the moment, it's also a matter of personal priorities

With the 4500 I will hopefully get, I can:
get that culture vulture I won't shut up about these days
put 1000 towards building a new meterbridge for the MCI console
put the other 2kish towards a fender rhodes

That to me is much more tempting than having a big beautiful box of analogue goodness just doing nothing in the corner, collecting dust when it could be out there doing great things for someone.

As far as current tape business goes, yeah, once in two years, what's that telling you?

I could do much better things with a nice simple VU meter bridge (rather than about 50 stooopid plasma driver cards and one less PSU to recap), a culture vulture (which will substitute my current use for tape nicely - my use being dirt), and a rhodes I've loved for a long time! Not sure if that'll happen, I may just need to give my accountant some money but eitherway, stuff be done that I feel good about getting done

And, come the day that my life settles and I can sit back and enjoy the benefits of having tape, I'd get a nice Studer
Don't get me wrong, the MCI is fantastic, but we are talking about twice the price

[Bart Nettle]

For what its worth, I was once given this good advice by a peer in the early 80's.
"Never sell any musical Equipment you ever buy".

Even back then there was regrets from selling stuff that ended up sought after.

Fast forward and very little digital and zero software increases in value from its original cost.

Over the years I have sold a few items and regretted about half of them.

As you know how to align it. Do you know how to maintain it? Another piece of advice I was once given was" You have no business owning something if you cannot afford to maintain it?"

Pack it up(while you think about it) into something to preserve it with some moisture absorbing crystals and stow it safely away and make some space and free up your creativity.

In a few short years you'll be glad you never sold it!

[The Tasmanian]

I agree Lee
sometimes a man needs something else a lot more now than a piece of equipment that may give you future income.
Its a great juggle of gear and $ to get it right for the majority of ones clients
You can always buy a tape machine in the future

[Linear]

at the moment, it's also a matter of personal priorities

With the 4500 I will hopefully get, I can:
get that culture vulture I won't shut up about these days

<snip>

a culture vulture (which will substitute my current use for tape nicely - my use being dirt)

<snip>

As far as current tape business goes, yeah, once in two years, what's that telling you?

as the owner of 5 tape machines and a culture vulture, I can tell you that they aren't really a replacement for each other. have you used a culture vulture before? its a little like buying a banjo to replace the uke you just sold. well, kind-of.

as for being used once in two years, that's your choice too not just the bands.

most of the time I ask the band what it is they want, how much time we've got and I make the call as for tape or digital. most bands have no idea (why the hell should they?)

i don't charge extra for using tape, and even include some tape in the studio hire. so it's not a decision they need to make. want to track live, not do too many takes, be prepared to transfer the takes in real time (= slower) and like a phat 70's drum sound? track to tape.

want to track multiple takes to click and comp/want a faster drum sound/want to track 10 songs in one day? then track to digital.

it's a big call, there are many pro's and cons. just be sure you've thought everything through before you say goodbye to it.

Chris

[Lee Cardan]

I hear what you're saying
Believe me, I wouldn't even have a computer if I could commit everyone to tape, but the fact of the matter is the majority of my work is guys coming in to track drums and do the rest at their place. so, tape rarely contributes in this sense. Time is always a factor in these cases (typically, 6 songs, 2 days kind of thing) and the engineers leading the session simply have no desire to use tape. Everyone thinks it's cool! but that's about as far as it goes

I have major desire to use tape, but I'm not getting the kind of work to complement the tape workflow. There will be edits, lots. The will be endless overdubs and re-do's and lots of automation and ITB FX sends (autos) and etc.. etc.. nice jazz band, straight up straight down the line attitude, sure.. but it rarely happens, and when it does, well I can still just use the computer. If I was spending more time in there that I could really get intimate with tape and the workflow then sure I'd love to, but now's just not the time in my life

And, sure there will be more machines in the future
Maybe I can get a highly desirable studer, or ampex which will actually bring clients in
There's just no need for me to hold onto this MCI, never using it when I could definitely use the cash for something I know I'll get more use out of. and I"m not talking 20 years, maybe 5, maaaybe 10, someday when I can facilitate it and when I'm happy enough in my work environment to spice things up a little. it's all very spicy as it is thank you! I love it to bits here, but still have a lot of work to do before I master my surroundings

blah blah

blah


also, I'm certainly not looking at the culture vulture as a tape replacement
but just a dedicated distortion device, which is about as much use as my tape gets at the moment

[ChrisW]

Saw an interesting chat between Pensado and Brauer on youtube, essentially both agreeing that most contemporary musicians have lost the rhythm of working with tape.
So, they are used to knocking off take after take, bang, bang, bang. But if you're tracking to tape, you have to spin back to the head, or take time to change reels.

[The Tasmanian]

Lazy bastards those yanks!
Its so easy to track to tape live and transfer of the playback head as it happens - no need to transfer, only need one roll of tape. (as long as you can monitor through a console /or split (mult) the pre's outputs to go both ways - one to tape and the other to a console for monitoring.
That's how I do most of live band tracking these days - still the best sound for hard hitting drums.

[The Tasmanian]

But a MCI.....
I'd sell it if it were me.
MCI - starts to wobble at 20k - cant deal with higher harmonics - its a retro 1970's sounding tape machine.
But an Ampex MM1200 is flat to 100k! - now that is another world!

[Linear]

Hey Chris,

I reckon you accidentally put an extra '0' there - you meant flat to 10kHz!!

I seem to remember my MM1200 16 track it being about 3db down at 30kHz or so. Rob was testing it so he might remember better. Or not ;-)

Don't forget Lee, the MCI has pretty much the same audio cards as an MM1200. Apparently Jeep just thought it was easier to get proven electronics rather than reinvent the wheel. It is regarded by many to be the finest drum-tracking tape machine out there, transport niggles aside.

Chris

[Ben M]

but the fact of the matter is the majority of my work is guys coming in to track drums and do the rest at their place. so, tape rarely contributes in this sense.

I'm a bit confused with this quote lee and why you'd sell your machine...
Some drummers I know don't like the sound that digital imparts on their drums and only use tape. Any sort of tape... As long as it's not digital.
If tracking drums is a large part of your studio business, why not promote the use of your tape machine more. Eg. When you advertise in various media make a point that you have tape and your not afraid to use it. Point out and focus on it's pluses and promote this when engineers and bands that drop in to spec your studio. Play a track recorded with tape and without and point out the sonic differences.
You could offer a service were bands bring in their dig recorded drums ( or complete recording) and dump to tape and back again. You don't have to record directly to tape and then dump to pootools after it's done as a rule. You can have everything complete and then dump. There could be a market for this if your machine is well aligned and in good operational condition.
Maybe I'm totally out of touch and hoping tape doesn't totally disappear from studios.
All the best.

[Drumstruck]

<.......If tracking drums is a large part of your studio business, why not promote the use of your tape machine more. Eg. When you advertise in various media make a point that you have tape and your not afraid to use it. Point out and focus on it's pluses and promote this when engineers and bands that drop in to spec your studio. Play a track recorded with tape and without and point out the sonic differences.
You could offer a service were bands bring in their dig recorded drums ( or complete recording) and dump to tape and back again. You don't have to record directly to tape and then dump to pootools after it's done as a rule. You can have everything complete and then dump. There could be a market for this if your machine is well aligned and in good operational condition.....>

100 x yes I wish I had the $s to buy your MCI - all I've got is a (nice) little Ta@#$% 1/2" 8 track for this exact purpose and even it provides a sound to drum tracks that PT (et al) doesn't.

With the growing use of electronic drums (with or without VSTs like BFD2) that analog flavour could well be in more demand to remove the "same-ness".

But if you have the spare $s to get an Ampex or some such in future then selling your MCI when the market is good may be a wise move....

[The Tasmanian]

Chris - My tech Steve wilson showed me when he lined up the MCI - at 20k the needles wobble all over the place
The Ampex did not move at all at 20k - "flat to 100k" was his words.
Even though the electonics are almost the same - apparently its the head to tape contact on the Ampex machines was far superior and the best they ever got on a tape machine/ in effect printing a better signal to tape and an extended top end..
If you've had the luxury of having both side by side for a decade (like I have) - the MCI's sound dull compared to an Ampex.
I'd never buy another MCI - even they are more reliable than an ampex with the much more modern transport.
I'd much rather a Ampex - or Studer.
Apparently - this is the same with the 1/2 inch machines - no serious mastering facility would pick a 1/2 MCI over a 1/2 inch Ampex.
Even a good Studer does not extend up as high as an Ampex - same reason they again are not the first choice for mastering
Anyway - 100k does sound a bit stretched - but there is a massive difference in top end between these machines.
I wonder what a 1/2 inch Ampex specs are?
A pro tech with experience on both machines should come in here and set things straight.

[NathS101]

If tracking drums is a large part of your studio business, why not promote the use of your tape machine more. Eg. When you advertise in various media make a point that you have tape and your not afraid to use it. Point out and focus on it's pluses and promote this when engineers and bands that drop in to spec your studio. Play a track recorded with tape and without and point out the sonic differences.
You could offer a service were bands bring in their dig recorded drums ( or complete recording) and dump to tape and back again. You don't have to record directly to tape and then dump to pootools after it's done as a rule. You can have everything complete and then dump. There could be a market for this if your machine is well aligned and in good operational condition.
Maybe I'm totally out of touch and hoping tape doesn't totally disappear from studios.

Great idea, I hope that tape doesn't disappear too.
Speaking of tracking drums to tape and then doing a dump... are there many studios in Sydney who do this? As I'm currently looking for a new drum tracking studio and the ones I've previously used don't have tape
nath

[The Tasmanian]

Ah - yes its sad
And BJB will die next Thursday - One more studio that really supported tape (and digital) is gone forever..
And there is almost no rooms left with very high ceilings AND a selection of various tape machines.......
Long live tape, tape machines and the studios that put quality before profit!

[Lee Cardan]

but the fact of the matter is the majority of my work is guys coming in to track drums and do the rest at their place. so, tape rarely contributes in this sense.

I'm a bit confused with this quote lee and why you'd sell your machine...
Some drummers I know don't like the sound that digital imparts on their drums and only use tape. Any sort of tape... As long as it's not digital.
If tracking drums is a large part of your studio business, why not promote the use of your tape machine more. Eg. When you advertise in various media make a point that you have tape and your not afraid to use it. Point out and focus on it's pluses and promote this when engineers and bands that drop in to spec your studio. Play a track recorded with tape and without and point out the sonic differences.
You could offer a service were bands bring in their dig recorded drums ( or complete recording) and dump to tape and back again. You don't have to record directly to tape and then dump to pootools after it's done as a rule. You can have everything complete and then dump. There could be a market for this if your machine is well aligned and in good operational condition.
Maybe I'm totally out of touch and hoping tape doesn't totally disappear from studios.
All the best.

yep yep, and I hear exactly what you're saying Ben, and appreciate it!

To expand on what I was saying, the people who track at ebs aren't newcomers to audio. A lot of the work they're doing is label or distributor funded, in and out type deals. These guys know exactly what they want and how they like to work (ie, quick), tape is nothing new and exciting to them, and the general attitude is straight down to business. They know what to expect from my converters, and don't want to walk away with any surprises, or encounter any hurdles during setup. I feel that for the mostpart guys look at it as one big chunk of question mark and unnecessity.

Honestly I 'work' in there so very little that it's just not worth keeping around at the moment for the one or two guys (myself included) that actually take an interest in the beast. If i was in there doing projects myself I could see myself making it a fundamental part of my workflow sooo easily (my way or the highway yep) - but that's a while away I'm afraid, and perhaps I could grab that studer or ATR124 between now and then

[ChrisW]

And there is almost no rooms left with very high ceilings AND a selection of various tape machines.......

That is a serious issue and a worry.
I had BJB earmarked for my drum tracking needs, but now I'm looking for a studio with professional level gear that also has a room with no weird issues.

[ChrisW]

They know what to expect from my converters

This is somewhat true.
Although I don't track drums for contemporary projects much any more, the last time I tracked to analog tape was 1988.
It really is quite standard to track drums to Pro Tools HD. Even though people always talk about tracking through the tape machine, I've never worked with anyone who's actually done it. I also know a couple of guys who were busy engineers in the tape days who are very impressed by the new tape emulations like UAD Studer.
Having said all that, everyone I know agrees there are sonic benefits from tracking drums through a tape machine to a digital recorder, but it seems those benefits aren't so strong as to make them do it.

[Lee Cardan]

You know, someone came over yesterday to check out the machine.
Just firing it up again and putting some tape on, hearing it in action.. got me thinking, do I really want to sell this thing? firstly it sounds amazing, secondly I (as I keep saying) love this thing to bits! so, what the hell?

I've been thinking about all what I've said above, and in all honesty nothing I said is a good enough reason to sell it. Everything you've said is spot on. All this bullshit about it not being used blahblah.. well I'll just start using it on every single session I can. First thing I'm going to do is make it a permanent part of my tracking workflow. Track to tape, dump to computer, comp and overdub, mix. If the band can lay whole takes and no need for comps, then I'll just mix straight off tape. If the band can't track to tape, then I shouldn't be doing that band

phew am I glad that's all over

[Ben M]

phew am I glad that's all over

Bewdy
Glad we swayed you Lee.

the last time I tracked to analog tape was 1988.

Chris, I find that amazing. That's 24 years since you've been in a session that bothered to track your drums to tape.

I also know a couple of guys who were busy engineers in the tape days who are very impressed by the new tape emulations like UAD Studer.

I'll comment on UAD tape emu's... I've been demoing the new Ampex 102 and I have to say it's got plenty of jazz.
I got into aligning it yesterday....feakin amazing flexibility in sounds/controls (because it's a plugin you can toy til your hearts content with the calib and bias etc..).
I didn't think enough of the Studer emu to get one, but the 102 is a different story. If I had a tape machine (or a real Ampex 102) I would still buy it.