Pro Tools 10

[Drumstruck]

PT9 going native was the best thing they've done for my setup - I haven't even thought about using Reaper since PT9 came along. But I use PT primarily as the recording medium, doing pretty much all automation and FX outboard so there's not much incentive for me to go to PT10 yet.

PCI I'm not so sure about - the PC industry has been warning about the end of PCI for some years now - that was just advancement and as inevitable as the demise of ISA /EISA. S/w support for an EOL interface is thus pretty unlikely. Most companies have the n-1 stance to get them off the hook from supporting older versions. It's all like Karl Marx' grave - a communist plot

fyi - from another forum here's a list of PT10 new/enhanced features:

• Clip based gain workflow
• Real-time Fades
• Extended Disk Cache (being able to load the timeline into RAM)
• Improved Disk Scheduler (faster harddive communication)
• Support for NAS
• 24-Hour Timeline
• Visual Indication Improvements
• Export Selected Tracks
• Interplay Send To Playback
• Improved ISIS Support
• EUCON Integration Phase II
• Channel Strip Plug-in and new AAX plugin format support
• Down Mixer Plug-in
• In App Browser for Plug-in App Store, Help etc.
• Support for Mixed File Formats (FIle type, Bit-depth)
• 32-Bit Float point audio file support and Session Format
• Bounce To iTunes
• Send To Soundcloud
• Bus Interrogation
• Low Latency Monitoring for ASIO/Core Audio
• Audiosuite Now Preserves Metadata
• Audiosuite Now Has Multiple Windows
• Audiosuite Handles
• Di-Fi Update
• Right Click to Reveal In Finder
• Media Composer Clip Gain Interop
• FGS UI Localisation
• 256 Voices (Pro Tools HD and Pro Tools with CPTK)
• 768 Tracks (Pro Tools HD and Pro Tools with CPTK)
• 512 Aux Tracks
• Improved ADC with up to 16,384 samples (ALL Pro Tools Versions)
• Field Recorder Improvements
• Input Monitoring (with CPTK)
• Destructive and TrackPunch (with CPTK)
• Support for up to 12 Satellites
• Support For D-Command Multi-mode
• Media Composer Surround Track Interop

[Ben M]

• Improved ADC with up to 16,384 samples (ALL Pro Tools Versions)

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is just with forthcoming HDX cards, right?

[Ben M]

I can see 3 things in the list above that would be useful for me to add to my PTHD rig.


$999 divided by 37 enhanced features = $27 per feature
$27 x 3 = $81

Sounds fair

[jkhuri44]

those features?? dont look that good? certainly wouldnt pay whatever it is they want for them.

[Drumstruck]

I can see 3 things in the list above that would be useful for me to add to my PTHD rig.


$999 divided by 37 enhanced features = $27 per feature
$27 x 3 = $81

Sounds fair

Pretty much my summary there too..... I'll have the extra tracks, NAS support, multiple rate support and extended memory for $108 thanks.

[wez]

Avid really has me in a bind and I guess I'm just not into S&M.

That's not the Myles I know.

[audioio]

David - spot on
Its the sneaky "dont tell anyone-just drop some vague hints " on what they are doing pisses me off as a long time client.

Sort of. I can understand their wanting to keep the cards close to their chests so that they don't give too much away to the competition. This would include other hardware manufacturers like UAD.

What are we supposed to do - run an investment account for when we are forced to spend big money every few years when they suddenly tell us they wont support/put any effort into past products we have spent big on?

Well, maybe. I think the point would be that the 32-bit compatible systems have reached the end of their lives and if there's going to any further progress they have to be ditched. Whether or not this justifies what they're charging is another matter... but that's a different question.

How hard would it be to keep the PCI/PCIE platform going with future releases of software.
[...snip...]
How hard is it to write some software for both platforms ?

Not being a software/hardware/firmware engineer, I find it hard to say. Avid/Digi has always tested its systems very thoroughly and with a wide variety of systems. Of course, we know that hasn't always worked, but I'll bet there are plenty of times when you've thanked the audio gods for PT's stability. As time goes on, maintaining all of those for the purposes of testing has to be harder.

I aint getting sucked into this money spending vortex no more!

The pricing is a bit perplexing. As far as I can see, an upgrade from PT9 native to PT10 native is $300. But $1000 for HD9 to HD10? I would have thought that the real value is in the hardware.

[danander11]

I'll change to Logic

LOL...


You have me in tears... I'm spewing about the high upgrade cost, (relative to what's being offered), but I really have been pleased with 9. I'd like to have the fade and disk caching functions though...

[Aearth]

I think if I ever get back to PT it will be HD Native.

nIC

[mylesgm]

I like protools as software too, just don't like the way the monolith treats the plebs...

[Ender]

At least at the time of the PT9 upgrade and similar complaints, it felt like it was a strategic move from Avid to show they had taken the reigns from Digi, released a fresh product and with it, a new approach to manage the software. I was happy with the improvements at the time, but also felt like I was buying into the 'we will be adding customer requested enhancements' as part of the PT9 life-cycle. I wouldn't have bought into 'you'll be paying ~$250 a year to get those enhancements'.

Avid are a bit stuck I reckon. They used to bundle the software with (mandatory) hardware, so the cost of the software and their model for selling 'licenses' for it specifically was pretty informal knowing they made their money on the hardware. Now that PT is 'open' to other hardware options, it seems Avid are possibly trying to recoup extra development/enhancement costs by pushing a major release instead of a dot release (eg. 9.1) and trying to re-sell it again.. in some cases for features they could arguably be offering as part of their re-architecture of an aging software design. PTx aside, from a software licensing perspective, its a pretty poor business model to release major upgrades too often (Vista > Win7 upgrade rage?)

Here's hoping a decent chunk of their PT9 'must have' upgradees vote with their wallet on this one to hopefully make Avid reassess their software model. Especially how they treat their 'premium' PTHD market. Couple of features look nice but.. no thanks.

[Sammas]

Ender... i'd say you have a point... but the LACK of this major release has been one the main gripes and points of complaint for protools users... for at least the last 6 years.

Protools hasn't had a release like this for 9 years... if you consider the total update to hardware and its capabilities. If you consider the updates to the programming platform, I don't think protools has EVER had an update like this. I know Protools 2.0 ran on 32bit NuBUS systems, and that was in 1994!

It seems every large protools release has opposition to it. Simply skimming back through past pages on the DUC show outrage by many people... saying it isn't worth it. Saying it is too expensive. Whinging that their current system will soon be outdated... yet here we are. A decade later and it is happening again.

...sure protools users knew such an update and a required reinvestment was coming eventually?? Perhaps the cracking deal of protools 9 combined with the past few years iphone/apple super update spree has left protools users wanting the latest and greatest immediately for next to nothing. It is bizarre. Protools HD, despite the initial condemnation and almost immediate dismissal, phased in slowly. Now it is everywhere. I don't think AVID have banked on a new hardware system for quite and instance sales... but rather a gradual transition (as indicated by witholding 64bit operation to continue HD compatibility).


If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just take a deep breath and keep making music. Nothing has really changed in the last two weeks... I really don't know why people are getting so upset.

[ChrisW]

I think Digidesign/Avid gained their 'spendy' reputation from years gone by.
There were plenty of times their hardware became obsolete (I still own an 888/24), plus their software only upgrades were often expensive enough.
Fair go, they are focused on the big earners in the music industry, but it's always been an expensive system to maintain, not just since they unlocked the interface aspect.

[ChrisW]

Protools hasn't had a release like this for 9 years...

If the Wiki is correct the hardware upgrades go....
•1994
Pro Tools III system, provides 16–48 voices
•1997
Pro Tools | 24 (24-bit audio, 32-64 voices)
(1998 - Pro Tools | 24 MIX)
•2002
Pro Tools | HD system (supports 96 kHz and 192 kHz HD audio); Mbox and Digi 002 (March and Sept.)
to 2011.

It wasn't just Digidesign, it was Apple too.
To upkeep the system you often needed new audio interfaces that were more expensive than rivals. You almost always needed a whole new Mac. A new Mac meant a new OS and most of your software didn't work anymore.

[Chris H]

...................all this makes me very chuffed I have always been using Logic since I gradually evolved to DAW from tape in the mid 90's. As a smaller fish in the music pond the Protools upgrade scenario would have been too high a price.

[The Tasmanian]

I really wish I had used Logic on the side over the last decade - like for writing at home.
It would be so simple and easy at this point in time to get my divorce from Avid.
PT's is like a bad ex girlfriend - its time we did not speak for a long while - and then just have a cup of tea at a cafe - no more bed action.
I'm logically looking for a new GF

[Ben M]

A rackable PT box would've been more forward thinking on Avid's part. With a few connectors to future proof it. Problem being that this software upgrade doesn't do much for my current HD rig and the HDX cards (in the near future) will probably need to be mounted in a separate chassis when apple decide to cut back the use of Pcie. Making HDX almost outdated in itself.

[Sammas]

Protools hasn't had a release like this for 9 years...

If the Wiki is correct the hardware upgrades go....
•1994
Pro Tools III system, provides 16–48 voices
•1997
Pro Tools | 24 (24-bit audio, 32-64 voices)
(1998 - Pro Tools | 24 MIX)
•2002
Pro Tools | HD system (supports 96 kHz and 192 kHz HD audio); Mbox and Digi 002 (March and Sept.)
to 2011.

It wasn't just Digidesign, it was Apple too.
To upkeep the system you often needed new audio interfaces that were more expensive than rivals. You almost always needed a whole new Mac. A new Mac meant a new OS and most of your software didn't work anymore.

Indeed, such is the nature of the beast... but do you think "upkeep" and "maintenance" are the best words to describe it? A close mate of mine is running a 2006 mac pro with protools HD version 7 and it doesn't require any upkeep or maintenance. It is by all accounts a terrific system! Maybe not the most "Up to date" system, but still a terrific system none the less.

[Sammas]

A rackable PT box would've been more forward thinking on Avid's part. With a few connectors to future proof it. Problem being that this software upgrade doesn't do much for my current HD rig and the HDX cards (in the near future) will probably need to be mounted in a separate chassis when apple decide to cut back the use of Pcie. Making HDX almost outdated in itself.

Bah! You guys are so pessimistic. Has there been any allusion by Apple to scrapping PCIe card slots? The idea of everything turning to thunderbolt is messy. Imagine stringing 6 devices off the back of your computer because there is no internal connections?

If thunderbolt is going to become the new norm, HDX can't really outdate itself. They use exactly the same data format... thunderbolt is PCIe over a different cable. An AVID thunderbolt version of HDx would be just a HDx card in an external box. Is there any reason you suspect there won't be a thunderbolt version of HDx? Mac only released thunderbolt ports on their computers that came out 3 months ago. Currently I only know 3 thunderbolt devices in existence; Apple's thunderbolt display, lacie's little big thunderbolt external harddrive and sonnet's thunderbolt to PCIe mini laptop card interface. With Magma and Sonnet planning on making thunderbolt to PCIe chassis available next year. It is still hugely early in the game to dismiss a HDx thunderbolt version. I don't doubt if AVID did release a thunderbolt only version of HDx instead of PCIe, everyone would be complaining that they would need to buy a new mac for it!

You should really look at the bright side. With the speed of portable and compact computing (MBP's, mac mini's running quad core i7's & imacs), a 3 slot thunderbolt to PCIe chassis for $975 puts you in the position to have an insanely powerful mac DAW for thousands of dollars cheaper than the cost of a mac pro.

768 voices on a mac mini? Sounds fantastic to me! ...with two PCIe slots to spare as well.

[Chris H]

Thunderbolt!.........ha, I think they are running out of ideas on what to call their latest data pipe technology. "Thunderbolt" sort of reminds me of a sewer drainpipe........ or the name of a race hose some drunken trainer puts up to win the Melbourne Cup!

[Drumstruck]

You've hit some really good points there Nath - esp relating to MacMinis and thunderbolt connection to a chassis.

I've already gone down the MBP <-> firewire mixer and PT9(HD aka CPTK) path to replace one Wandoze PC and am working on moving from W7 to a Mac Mini / PT10 (upgrade from PT8) for my other DAW. And all in readiness for PT11HDx 64bit system - you've gotta plan ahead......

I suppose everyone here has noticed all the jumping ship from the "older" PT happening already? There's a lot of Digi (older PT) hardware appearing suddenly on eBay for even more reasonable prices. The domestic / home studio world is going to take a big step up over the next 12 months - I suspect this will push the pro world up to the new generation of PT, even if it's just to keep that distance from the home studio world......

[Manning]

Meh - the pro world involves mics, proper rooms and clueful engineers.

A HDX system with every plugin that exists can't make a RODE NT1A in your bedroom sound good.

[Drumstruck]

Meh - the pro world involves mics, proper rooms and clueful engineers.

A HDX system with every plugin that exists can't make a RODE NT1A in your bedroom sound good.

Q: If I put you in a bedroom with an HDX system and a Rode NT1A could you make a talented artist sound good?

[Manning]

Meh - the pro world involves mics, proper rooms and clueful engineers.

A HDX system with every plugin that exists can't make a RODE NT1A in your bedroom sound good.

Q: If I put you in a bedroom with an HDX system and a Rode NT1A could you make a talented artist sound good?

A: I personally could produce a mediocre-quality recording of a good artist.

A skilled engineer could do better, but then a skilled engineer could also do a good job on a Fostex 8 track in the same situation.

A skilled engineer in a great room with good mics could make a killer recording of a good artist.

[Chris H]

Meh - the pro world involves mics, proper rooms and clueful engineers.

A HDX system with every plugin that exists can't make a RODE NT1A in your bedroom sound good.

Q: If I put you in a bedroom with an HDX system and a Rode NT1A could you make a talented artist sound good?

.......trick question? My take is not necessarily.
The talented artist sounds good and performs well.....that's a given....nothing to do with me except setting a comfortable creative work space. The HDX system is up to it in all aspects.
My job as recordist is to make sure my choices don't get in the road of the great performance.....now that choice of mic may get in the road sonically and the room might also. If the talented artist is playing an acoustic instrument then the room is part of the sound....and their voice is an acoustic instrument. So if the bedroom has to sound decent and the mic has to compliment or work with the vocal sound. The transducer is perhaps the most vital part of the recording chain and may not do justice to the performance style or vocal delivery.
.........maybe I should say sounding good is not good enough, it should be sounding great. That's how i want to always work or it's ultimately a pointless pursuit.

[Ben M]

Bah! You guys are so pessimistic. Has there been any allusion by Apple to scrapping PCIe card slots? The idea of everything turning to thunderbolt is messy. Imagine stringing 6 devices off the back of your computer because there is no internal connections?

To be clearer Nath... I didn't say "scrap" pcie (I know chunderbolt uses it), I meant cut back on pcie card slots. Maybe I'm alone in the thought that apple wouldn't mind making their mac pro's smaller at some point... and pcie slots do take up a fair bit of the architecture. They may have only one slot in the future??? it's possible. Who knows?

I don't doubt if AVID did release a thunderbolt only version of HDx instead of PCIe, everyone would be complaining that they would need to buy a new mac for it!

I was thinking a few different connectors to "future proof" it (as much as poss.). Avid could of held off for one more year with this release (let people enjoy more updates to PT9) and then hit the market with an all in one converter/interface/dsp/64bit/blah/blah/big chips plus the newer software that fits directly in with where they want to take PT when they hit PT11. And all of this while telling their customers exactly what the game plan is and where they're headed so customers could prepare their asset registers for it.

Making HDX almost outdated in itself.

Ok.... maybe I shoudn't have said this.

[Dallas]

• Improved ADC with up to 16,384 samples (ALL Pro Tools Versions)

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is just with forthcoming HDX cards, right?

16,384 samples in PT10, PT10HD native & PT10HDX.... only format it doesn't work in is the HD TDM format.

[Drumstruck]

• Improved ADC with up to 16,384 samples (ALL Pro Tools Versions)

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is just with forthcoming HDX cards, right?

16,384 samples in PT10, PT10HD native & PT10HDX.... only format it doesn't work in is the HD TDM format.

.... just the messenger guys - I don't write those goofy lists

[Manning]

Meh - the pro world involves mics, proper rooms and clueful engineers.

A HDX system with every plugin that exists can't make a RODE NT1A in your bedroom sound good.

Q: If I put you in a bedroom with an HDX system and a Rode NT1A could you make a talented artist sound good?

.........maybe I should say sounding good is not good enough, it should be sounding great. That's how i want to always work or it's ultimately a pointless pursuit.

I think my original point wasn't made clearly enough, judging by the reaction.

What I'm saying is that the mere possession of a Pro Tools system will not suddenly make someone a good engineer.

So even though the 003 and mBox home setups might now get replaced by older HD systems, it won't suddenly lead to a world of killer home studio recordings. I'll wager that the majority of recordings that will get made in these upgraded home studios won't really be any better than the ones made using the mBox.

Good recordings start with good engineers, and then with good source signals and environments. Then back to good engineers.

(I'm not a good engineer, by the way, I'm a composer and performer. My business partner is an excellent engineer).

[JamesM]

The old accel cards cannot support more voices or ADC because the hardware cannot physically support it.

They need to move on to a newer architecture to move 64 bit and give all the features users have been asking for.

Whats shocking is the prices they are asking to do it, the fact they have dropped compatibility for "legacy interfaces" (such as the old blue 192, lynx aurora, appogee etc) as of version 10.1, and the fact that the HDX system will not run on older Mac Pros (2008 Harpertown mac pros and older) -> this makes the older systems worthless.

They are basically trying to force all the old hardware systems off the market.

I'd hate to be in AVIDs shoes right now... They've pissed off a lot of people