How low would you go..

[DaleRoyce]

A simple general question..

If things are slow.. How low will you go.

Or, are you charging a 1/3rd less this year.. etc.

Actual details not requested, just opinions.

In response to some advertised chrissy deals that are out and about.

[DaleRoyce]

dear santa..

Can i get a new tube for my profile this Christmas

[Chris H]

I was just thinking of this on my drive to work this morning and this question popped into my head.......
Are you a business or a charity?
What do you have to earn to keep your business afloat. what are your overheads etc, etc?
There are plenty of options on offer to the recording muso, many are from what I would call the hobbyist sector. I think the serious service provider in our business needs to differentiate themselves from the hobbyist sector in both quality of service provided and correspondingly to cost of the service to the client. Even doing so, It's a constant challenge to keep the income to a level needed to survive.

[The Tasmanian]

My motto's have always been :
Look after good repeat clients when they at times have smaller budgets - and they keep coming back and recommend others to work with you.
For example - I'm soon doing a 7 day session with an artist for $1k !!!! - now I could consider this absolute shit money BUT - I have done more than 15 albums with the artist - and many spinoffs from recommendations made to others by him.
This time he has very little budget - but he is as loyal a client as one would ever hope for - and I know I will do many more albums with him in the future (and a possible Holllywood soundtrack too)

Don't get into the bullshit if a first time client says "if you do this one really cheap - there will be others that have a decent budget". In this case - name your price or go fishing.

Be flexible - just like all of us at times we have little to spend and other times more budget.
If you never budge on your price be prepared to have unpaid downtime.

Remember - every good job you do should bring more work from others - musicians talk.

And finally - quiet times are good times to relax, re evaluate business directions and ones approach to sourcing future work.

[Drumstruck]

An interesting thought - I think the price point is critical to maintaining business - too cheap and clients may assume lower quality offerings (i.e. why is it so cheap? mustn't be very good....) - too expensive and you'll (likely) get fewer but more elite clients.

I did an experiment a year or so ago and offered a free mastering session - over the period of 1 month I got..... 1 request . That particular "client" asked for "a" and when I provided him "a" he started whinging that he really wanted "b".

It's a really difficult position for guys who make their living off doing audio - bills mount up / food is needed etc - not easy, not glamorous, not likely to bring great wealth......

When I was a young bloke I worked a regular job to pay the bills and played music that I liked - now I'm an old bloke and I work a regular job because it lets me afford the gear to do music that I like...... and still dream of the day when I can do audio for a living but don't need the money.....

[stosostu]

Are you a business or a charity?

I just got this email this morning from the local RSL. I had quoted them $50 to provide a wireless mic and a small PA with a CD player for the Last Post and the Rouse (Which I got the CD for them).

Hi Rob,

As the Remembrance Service on Friday is going to be a short and simple affair we have decided to go with the offer a small PA and one microphone kindly donated by the local funeral directors from Taylor & Forgie.

[wez]

A good general rule in hard times is to not lower your price, but to provide more value-added services (ie the "buy one get one free" approach).

why? because it is VERY difficult to bring that price back up to 'normal' again, especially in an extended downturn... like the one we've been having for, well, the last fifteen years.

[Manning]

Our studio isn't even open yet (we still have painting and general fit-out stuff to complete). A mate in a bluegrass band asked if he could come in to record an EP, so I quoted him $500 for an entire weekend - based on "mates rates plus the studio isn't even finished yet"

He took that back to his bandmates, and one guy allegedly said, "nah, they're trying to rip you off - studios only cost $150 a day".

This is effectively minimum wage for the engineer plus free use of the equipment/facilities. I don't know who is charging that kind of money (if anyone actually is), but it makes me wonder about the mentality of some people.

[ChrisW]

I don't run a studio, so this is more a customers perspective.
I liked Chris' post. As a musician I will work very cheaply, sometimes freely if I'm going to get something out of it - a fun day, some killer music for my showreel, perhaps some repeat business.
One thing I learnt from film & tv, your super low fee can typecast you. And people will promise to hire you again at a higher fee, but when their circumstances improve, they often set their sights on bigger fish.
In the current climate, I'm looking for good deals on studio time, because my budget is also being squeezed (quite a bit). In the end, a low fee wont make up for a bad sound, or technical issues, so I will tend to look at good studios with a well established reputation first.
As for a new studio, not yet open. I think it's not a bad idea to run a couple of free sessions at first (hopefully with friends), to iron out problems and to identify potential annoyances to proper paying clients.
Call it a dry run with guinea pigs.

[Manning]

As for a new studio, not yet open. I think it's not a bad idea to run a couple of free sessions at first (hopefully with friends), to iron out problems and to identify potential annoyances to proper paying clients.
Call it a dry run with guinea pigs.

I absolutely agree - however all of that free time is going to go to the folks who have helped us out; eg. there's a blues guitarist who pretty much built one of our false ceilings entirely on his own, so he'll be getting *plenty* of free time. Likewise there is a "christian rock" guy who has helped us enormously with insulating and painting.

(We have one more wall and false ceiling to put in, so if anyone else wants lots of free studio time, let me know LOL

[DaleRoyce]

Look, I'm sure i deserve another F#*king tube (LOL)..

But seriously,

I understand where drumstruck and stosostu are comming from.

I teach as well as doing the Post thing and its been my experience in over ten years of teaching,
both singing and a martial art, that if its a gift given, its appreciated but not valued.

Children do not thank their parents till they leave home and then realize that there is no door at the back of the fridge where the pixies come through each night to restock the kitchen and pay the weekly bills.

No matter who, we all appreciate what others have done for us, but the sense of value can only deeply be understood to be something tangible if we work towards and pay a realistic price for our desired results or products.

I personally have Zero tolerance for resentment where there should be appreciation.

[Jason]

The price and deal game is something I don't feel like playing any more.

After doing the full time sound thing for 12 years (which ain't much compared to some of you guys) I am jumping ship. Time for the wife and kids to come first. I will keep my gear and studio and do the odd job for my faithful clients at the same price and deal we have been working with and thats about it. I now have a full time job and in my spare time (because I now have evenings and weekends) I can spend time with the family and make DIY audio gear which I enjoy doing very much. Have not had the chance before now.

I applaud you guys out there that can make the studio/family thing balance out and still make enough money in the week to pay the bills.

[musikwerks]

Family is very important. Everything, in fact.

I'm with Jason.

[mylesgm]

Its been quite awhile since I played the deal game or worked for free because someone asked me to. I've worked for free because I wanted to, sometimes I've offered a deal because I wanted to secure the work and sometimes I've simply not sent the invoice because I decided to do the work gratis however if someone asks me to do some work for them I tell them my rate and then they either agree or not. Its been awhile since someone that wanted to work with me passed because of my rate and I've raised that rate by 5 bucks an hour every 12 months for 3-4 years. Sure I've missed out on a few gigs because someone didn't have the money or someones friend will do it for free but these clients usually don't benefit me in the long run anyway. In fact the only time I've been screwed over recently was by someone who I wanted to work with who didn't have the money at the time so I did the work with an agreement to get paid later when they did have money they screwed me. People who want something for free don't value you and either value themselves very highly or don't value their music enough to really invest.

I treat downtime as enforced holidays (which I need) and I've still had plenty of work, still paid the bills. If people value YOUR services then they will pay reasonable rates regardless of your equipment (within reason) or the studio.
In my experience studios dont make money but individuals do.

[Ben M]

Its been quite awhile since I played the deal game or worked for free because someone asked me to. I've worked for free because I wanted to, sometimes I've offered a deal because I wanted to secure the work and sometimes I've simply not sent the invoice because I decided to do the work gratis however if someone asks me to do some work for them I tell them my rate and then they either agree or not. Its been awhile since someone that wanted to work with me passed because of my rate and I've raised that rate by 5 bucks an hour every 12 months for 3-4 years. Sure I've missed out on a few gigs because someone didn't have the money or someones friend will do it for free but these clients usually don't benefit me in the long run anyway. In fact the only time I've been screwed over recently was by someone who I wanted to work with who didn't have the money at the time so I did the work with an agreement to get paid later when they did have money they screwed me. People who want something for free don't value you and either value themselves very highly or don't value their music enough to really invest.

I treat downtime as enforced holidays (which I need) and I've still had plenty of work, still paid the bills. If people value YOUR services then they will pay reasonable rates regardless of your equipment (within reason) or the studio.
In my experience studios dont make money but individuals do.

Couldn't of said it better me self. +1

[Drumstruck]

In my experience studios dont make money but individuals do.

Yes, I think you got it pretty right there.

[The Tasmanian]

depends on the reputation of the studio - a really good reputation brings clients irrespective of who is engineering or producing - for ex Abbey Rd

[mylesgm]

which last I heard was a massive sinkhole for money...

[graemeh]

I'm in this full time and have been for over 20 years.
My last rate hike was 8 years ago and I've avoided changing for a variety of reasons and of course I give regular valued clients a better deal.
But way back then my electricity bills were $180 now they're over $300, parking was 60c per hour now it's $1.40, and the list goes on (5 minutes at the doctor's $58), so obviously my rates have dropped by around 30% or more in real terms, so my wife calculated, so I'm bucking the trend and putting my rates up by 15% next year.
So we'll see what happens....and if I'm still here this time next year I'll probably take a leaf out of Myles' book and add $5 per year from then on (thanks Myles).

[Manning]

which last I heard was a massive sinkhole for money...

Yes, indeed. it needed McCartney and Lloyd-Webber to make noise so as to prevent it being turned into "luxury apartments". The site has now been protected by the UK National Trust, meaning it can't be redeveloped. However it still has to make money somehow.

[The Tasmanian]

The only reason its a sinkhole is because of the huge staff costs/redundancies etc etc - its the old business model that does not work - the studio does attract business - lots of it.

[mylesgm]

its the old business model that does not work - the studio does attract business - lots of it.

Indeed and therein lies the problem. The old business model just does not work now. Which is sad because the business model worked very well except for the bean counters and the current trend of society. It was a great way to pass on knowledge, experience and to develop talent both artistically and technically. How much of modern music (artistic and technical advances) developed in large companies with extended hierarchies... EQ, flanging, ADT, compression etc...

[The Tasmanian]

It seems like businesses need to morph/adapt very quickly these days - everything is much more fluid, markets are so interconnected, costs rising, ways of doing things becoming obsolete, Avid shits me, financial turmoil in one nation affects so many others, insurance companies scamming, technology changing so fast - etc etc.
We all have to reinvent the way we do things, operate, source work, manage assets, look after clients - on almost a yearly basis now.
One good thing though - at least they passed the carbon tax yesterday - now that's one cost we should all pay for!

[GlennS]

Nothing is made to last these days.

[Chris H]

which last I heard was a massive sinkhole for money...

Yes, indeed. it needed McCartney and Lloyd-Webber to make noise so as to prevent it being turned into "luxury apartments". The site has now been protected by the UK National Trust, meaning it can't be redeveloped. However it still has to make money somehow.

There is much more to the story of what happened to Abbey Rd and EMI., That record company was severely abused by the practices of the corporate business model propagated by Guy Hands and EMI's new owner Terra Firma who where basically venture capitalists not fit to operate a record company in any way that resembles a company designed to facilitate creativity and make a profit.

One of the greatest threats to Abbey Rd was the value of the real estate on which it is located....... that's what venture capitalists are about......someone could make way more money gutting the studio and selling the real estate for other purposes. Outsource the recording to someone else.........whatever.....what do I really know?
Here is a link to a long discussion on EMI that on a now defunct forum that is kept on line for archival and research reasons. Some interesting and informative observations by engineers who know more than most of us about the real state of play in the "major league" so it can be a good place to get a feel for what has gone on.....and this could shed some light on how and where us motley bunch of audio individuals can make a dollar in our own little niche.
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index. ... /0/0/5706/

Amen to the notion that family is first though i don't particularly pay homage to the political party that carries a similar name. Following this priority led me to accepting my present job in a private school's music dept ten years ago doing sound in particular as well as general AV duties. Prior to this i was freelancing in studios and live, had partnership in a 2 studios and playing in the Australian Pops Orchestra,playing in a good band, soloing in local wineries, and teaching music industry skills to vet students in TAFE one day a week. I was making a living but it was constant work to keep the work coming in. The move was great as it gave me paid holidays i was able to spend with my wife and children. Life has it's seasons and it pays to adapt to them before they pass on to the next. I know I'm sounding a bit sentimental but as the youngest of mine is now 13 and the oldest ,25 I am absolutely convinced that if i didn't get the school job when I did I would have not been able to have the quality time I had with my boys and girl as they where growing up.
Also It's worth saying that I had looked down a bit on the audio work at schools thinking it a lesser option etc but this job requires quite a lot of recording in varied situation and instead of just throwing a mic up, I have used each recording in the school to experiment with mic technique and all the other aspects of the job to sharpen my skills, and have learnt a hell of a lot because the opportunities are more varied than many studios. So the move was a definite plus for the progression of my skills. The recordings of classical, jazz and contemporary music styles are of a profesional standard and this is a great asset to the school's music program as the quality of the performances at the schools senior level are a great promotional tool, not to mention the educational value to students being able to hear their performance objectivley and use the recordings to hone in on areas of their performance that need work. There is a lot of musical talent here from the music teachers and the students, so its a great environment to record in.
My freelance studio work is now a very handy second income without the stress of keeping my head above water financially from studio/ recording work alone.

[Chris H]

On topic in the Age today:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/societ ... 1n5dt.html

[jkhuri44]

i'd do audio work for $25 an hour...beats the shit out of working in a f*ck'n office.

[GlennS]

i'd do audio work for $25 an hour...beats the shit out of working in a f*ck'n office.

On the surface I agree, but only assuming you didn't have any overheads or a family to support. And you have to have the prospect of advancement, like you would in an office, otherwise you'll only be doing it for a relatively short period in your life, or living poor. Trust me, if I could make it work I wouldn't be billing at all & I would just focus on making music.

[jkhuri44]

dont mind me, i couldnt survive on audio work for long. im just writing a bitch post.

[mylesgm]

On topic in the Age today:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/societ ... 1n5dt.html

crappy opinion piece that gets a lot of views because its controversial. Check out the comments and almost nobody agrees with him. And he doesn't sound like much of a music appreciator either so not really my target audience. I say this as I'm currently working on the middle EP of a trilogy of EPs (each with their own focus) that will make a unified whole to be released as a special edition Vinyl pack.