A friendly push in the right direction?

[bozskat]

Hi,

I like to make music, but have come to a point where I am wanting to learn and make things better sonically.
My Instruments are Akai MPC2000XL, Rhodes Stage, Roland Fantom X6, plus a bass and guitar. I've previously used cubase sx on a pc but now am trying protools on a mac. Sometimes I have a singer or MC over to record on my instrumentals.

I have been reading lots of web forums, and recently a book called 'The Mixing Engineers Handbook'

I am running Pro Tools LE (002rack). I have some hifi speakers, also NS10s and an amp. Also a Studio Projects C1 sibilance inducing mic :)

I'm not having much fun learning with plugins (i prefer hands on like my mpc), so I am looking to pursue more physical options. I was thinking a DBX160VU or a DBX160X/XT for my drums, a UREI 1176LN for the rest, and i'm currently building an SSL mixbus clone to put on the stereo pair.

Am I missing anything obvious? Effects I guess.. although this i think i could get my head around with plugins.
Is there anything you guys would recommend to help me learn? Is a desk necessary? I was thinking I could use the outboard (DBX, UREI etc)as inserts off the 002, or would getting some kind of desk make the learning process easier first time around? would a spectrum analyzer help?

Is there any courses you would recommend? I am based in Newcastle, NSW.

Sorry if this sounds painful, but I am finding all this audio stuff quite interesting :)

Thanks for any suggestions!

-Christian.

[jkhuri44]

hey christian,

sounds like a good plan :P

unless that SSL mixbuss clone has an eq, an EQ to strap on to the master buss might be a sweet addition :P

for effects you can snag yourself some sweet roland/korg rack gear on ebay for a reasonable price...

if your using Protools, something like a Mackie Universal control or a Command 8 would be helpful if as you said your the hands on type of dude.

As for spectrum analysers, they are really good..but even better would bea subwoofer as part of your monitoring system that can really help you know whats flabbing and barking in your low end (a problem i have when mixing with nearfields).

I think i should stop blabbing :P

Jamil

[SNJ Studio]

Plug Ins are sounding very good these days - the Waves IR-1 convolution reverb is an excellent plug; you would have to pay a fair chunk of change to get outboard that sounds better, and hardware only gives you one instance. The Waves SSL plugs are cool, and the UAD-1 stuff sounds very nice in my studio. Also look at the URS plugins.

SSL mixbus clone - can you elaborate on this some more, it sounds very interesting. Is it a Kit or are you designing?

I would second the advice on a control surface for "Tools, I am still mixng with a mouse and even though have dualview 21" monitors I am still hangin out for a control surface.

The DBX and Urei will not steer you wrong, great bits of gear. Consider a distressor, or even something with a nice preamp on it too (Drawmer 1969?) - you want a nice pre. I'd certainly get a good preamp before the spec analyzer.

Having a desk can make patching and mixing easier, but if you get a budget desk your mixes would sound better "in the box" (mixed within protools).

Other gear I'd consider essential, Shure SM57, a RODE large diaphram, best preamp you can afford. NS10's are good enough if you know them, I don't think you NEED a sub but it would help.
Adam B - SNJ

[davemc]

If your recording external instruments.. I would look at a preamp first, the ones in the 002 are not really great. Although I prefer a nice preamps personally to mics,eq or compressors, other people will differ.
Plugins have gotten better, although still they do not add the 3D sound of a lot of outboard. A lot do nice clean sounding eq's/compressors etc. Although compressor plugins still personally a long way away fom a distressor if you want nice color and compression. A lot of people use compressors for color, plugins seem to lack the color.
Reverbs and FX plugins are a lot more like some exernal boxes around.

I would mainly look at getting some practise and working on skills more then gear. The book you mentioned is pretty good so is teh recoridng engineers book they have.
A couple of DVD's I have which are not overly bad.. MILAR (Mix it like a record) and Russ Longs Nashville recording sessions.
The thing I find often with home guys they think buying something new will automatically make up for lacking experiance. A lot of sound is from knowing what to do with things. I know people with home studios and really nice gear although do not know how to get a sound.
What do you think is lacking in your music at the moment?

[Chris H]

What sort of apm are you monitoring through?
( that should read amp...maybe i'm dyslectic)

[astrovic]

SNJ - the SSL clome will be Gyraf's DIY build - have a look at http://www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/gyraf_diy.html

Not a kit, but general instructions on how to build one

I've got one here, 95% complete, and it's a killer. A couple of the guys like me who post in the DIY part of this forum have built this, or the Gyraf's 1176 - again killer

Otherwise, good luck, Christian - sounds like you're where I am, just much much further ahead

[bozskat]

firstly i'd like to say, thanks for the replies :)

Jamil: the ssl mixbuss clone has no eq, what would be a really nice EQ that i wouldn't grow out of, in line with my other outboard choices?

i vaguely remember there being a yamaha subwoofer that matched with ns10s? lately i've been switching to the sony consumer hifi to check the bass.


adam: i like the idea of plugins.. my problem is to learn, i like to be able to turn a knob and listen to what is happening to the sound.. my enthusiasm gets a bit lost with too much computer. (that's the main reason i got the MPC and have had great results) i do pc 8 hours a day at work, this is related :) today i rented a dbx 160x and had a bit of a play.. thats a sound i've heard before! now to hear a 160vu. i'll definately check out the IR-1 reverb plug you mentioned. Effects I have no problem with using plugs. I think really i just like the 'sound' the various compressor boxes etc give to things that are run through them.
so the general deal is if i can't afford a decent desk.. stick with internal mixing.. makes sense.

the ssl mixbuss clone is a close copy of the SSL4000E summing compressor from http://www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/ssl/ssl.htm ... you can find guys in AUS selling pcbs from the groupdiy.org forum, there's an 1176 clone too and some other cool stuff, check it out :)

a distressor, i see most places have a EL8, excuse my ignorance, but how does it differ from a compressor? i'll check out the preamps.. maybe i can build the gyraf one next. i have an sm57 here somewhere i think.

dave: i'll check out the other book and movie suggestions. i guess i really need to learn to mix better, to make my music sound like the other releases i hear (the audio quality, not my style :) )...and i'd also like to add some colour/harmonics from the external gear. i quite humbly declare i'm right at the beginning of the learning phase, but i just like the idea of having something in a rack, something tactile, and something that adds something to the audio that goes through it. having something physical is how my brain learns easiest.
do you think that most guys who can make a really incredible mix ITB have had years experience with hardware previous? maybe their brain's just work differently to mine :)

chris: i'm using an ALESIS RA150 amp for the NS10s.. and a generic sony hifi also for monitoring.

astrovic: you beat me to it with the reply.. i'll leave my lines in there though :)

any further suggestions, i'm all ears!
one thing i'm curious about is why heaps of hiphop guys use an avalon VT737 for the vocals, does it compare well to another piece of 'classic' gear?

[davemc]

737's have a sound. I do not know if its bling bling factor and the fact people use them why hip hop and R&B guys want them. Maybe a little of each. .. The pre to me is ok, eq good and compressor hit or really miss.

One thing I will add is to get your acoustics and monitoring setup well. A nice set of headphones helps. If your always second guessing yourself makes it harder to mix. Spend a bit of time listening to other peoples mixers and hearing whats going on. There is lots of books and forums for help around now.

ITB. Well that is a can of worms. One thing you have to mix different inside the computer with gain staging, outside is more forgiving. Some plugins make things sound smaller also. I know I used to get things to re-mix and sometimes just pulling off the plugins made things better.

Distresor is a compressor it just has some switches to give it a few more sounds.

[jkhuri44]

in terms of EQs....not sure what would be good to strap on the master buss and be affordable...if your into DIY...maybe you can rack a pair of modules off ebay...

the distressor is a compressor with the option to add 1st, 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, as the name implies DISTortion plus compRESSOR :P thats different to other compressors as you can control the way the sound gets coloured.

never heard one, but thats what it does from memory, and its an industry hit

In terms of books, there's a sweet one called "Mixing in Your Mind" by an Aussie dude Stav, cant remember his full name.

[Kris]

Not a fan of the 737. Not sure why.... just don't like it. As for all the hip hop dudes using it, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that Babyface absolutely loves them (hence the "babyface mod" you can kit it out with which increases the compressor attack speed). It certainly looks slick in the rack.

If you're looking for a buss eq then maybe look at the Avalon AD2055... I'm keen to see/hear the new Manley Mini-Massive but I think that is some time away from being released.

[mark rachelle]

yeah i reckon to stay clear of the 737 and the 1969

isn't it funny how people love these two pre/comps for DI ing bass

i reckon that its partly because they are shite on most other things

sorry mick!

[mark rachelle]

actually shite is a bit harsh

but as for the compressors well its been a few years for the 1969 but i do remember it wasn't much chop
the 737 as a compressor? forget it
you will get better compression from a be!@#$%^& composer!

why on earth avalon completly redesign there 737 compressor i don't know

not sure what the babyface mod does but i had mine modded with the faster atack and the compressor was just as shite

whats needed is an LA3 style compressor in it or 1176 or ring modulated neve style compressor

with the nice EQ and Pre/DI it would then sound and function as good as it looks

[JulienG]

737's have a sound.

Sure, two turbofan jet engine's are hardly silent.

(Sorry, couldn't resist) ;-)