Old Violin Assembly & Appraisal

[DwaneHollands]

Hi Guys,

My father has a violin that was given to him when he was 14 years old. He is now 70 years old.

The doctor who gave it to him, was 70 years old when he passed it onto my father. And he had it all his life.

His father had it all his life and gave it to his son when he was 70 years old.

So perhaps it's over 100 years old.

It's currently in a condition which I would describe as 'dis-assembled'. It looks like the finger board and bridge just needs to be put on it. But I'm not familiar with these kinds of stringed instruments.

So I come to the Turtlerock Forum Braintrust for advice, contacts and any other comments!

Does anyone know whether this is a valuable violin or do you know where we can get it assembled and appraised?

Thanks guys. Hope you're having a good Sunday...

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[SteveL]

Dwane, you could try James Robinson:

http://www.violinplace.com.au/

Steve

[Chinagraf]

Could also be a teaching violin. They used to have interchangeable fingerboards and would have another one that had little grooves cut where each note was, a bit like frets on a guitar. I know very little about violins mind you.

[Sheer Noise]

I got my wife's violin and viola (both over 200 years old) restored and repaired with Sydney String Centre (http://www.violins.com.au/repairs.htm) in Chatswood. Very reasonably priced, a fantastic job on both instruments, and a stack of advice on the exact history and value of the instruments as well.

Dave.

[DwaneHollands]

Thanks guys! I'll check out those two contacts!

Interesting about possibly being a teaching violin.

It's amazing that instruments so old could be so affordable. I've seen a Fender 1956 Stratocastor that is selling for 100K. And there's violins that are 200 years old and are 24 grand. Would have thought they would have more antiquity value.

great if you're a violin player!

[Manning]

I'm actually a violinist first and foremost. As already noted above, I'll also highly recommend Sydney String Centre in Chatswood.

[Julian Nichols]

I'm also first and foremost a violin player, despite my electronic distractions.

There may be a label on the inside of the violin which you would read through the left f-hole. However given the age, it may have come loose and been lost years ago. It would help greatly if we knew what was written on that label.

Believe it or not, a picture of the back of a violin is often more revealing than the front. A fine violin will have a back made of very defined, bookmatched flame maple. The quality of this maple says a lot about how much worth was originally given to the violin.

In a past life working in a suburban music store I was often asked to 'have a look' at old violins, and if pushed for an unqualified opinion probably 95% of the time I would value the violin at 'about' $1000 or less. The majority of old fiddles are factory made instruments, copies of Stradivarius, Guarnerius, etc. Some are quite nice to play, some are so awful that I wouldn't let a student play on one.

One day a woman came in with a violin in a similar state to yours, and asked what it was worth, if anything. I think she noticed my jaw hit the floor, and when really pushed, I said I thought it was possibly worth upwards of $10,000 but it really needed to be professionally valued. Valuation came back a few days later as $20,000, so there you go.

Anyhow, do go and have it valued by a professional. You never know, but judging by the photos, my gut feeling is that it probably has more sentimental / antique value to you than any great monetary value. If it turns out to be worth something, it wouldn't take much to fix up the fingerboard and cut a bridge. $200 including strings, maybe?

[Manning]

Total agreement with Julian.

As a sidenote, counterfeit violins have been around (literally) for centuries, and continue to be made. There are many Strads, Guarneri, etc that were recently made in China.

However, just to confuse everyone there are also such violins that were made in Europe in the 18th and 19th century and which can now have considerable worth of their own. My own is an Amati dated 1698, which has been appraised as early 1860's German counterfeit. (The fact that Amati died in 1684 is possibly also a bit of a giveaway). It was valued over ten years ago at $7000.

[Drumstruck]

This is fascinating Manning - thanks. I remember seeing a tv show years ago talking about the copies and how some were made by top rank craftsmen of the time and actually rivalled the "big names" for quality (don't know how true that is).

If you have a few spare words - would you be able to elaborate a bit on what 300+ years does to the instrument? (sound quality / fragility etc). Do you have to keep it dehumidified or sealed for protection? Would you risk taking it somewhere very humid to play?

[Manning]

OK bear in mind that my instrument is probably only 150 years old, not 300. The 1698 label is definitely bogus (the instrument would be worth $1M + otherwise).

There were also considerable advances in varnishes between 1700 and 1850 so my instrument probably has an alcohol-based varnish (shellac or something similar), whereas Strad/Amati era violins typically had vernice bianca (egg white and gum arabic). Hence the care of a 19th century instrument is far less stressful than for a 17th century one. I don't take my violin into high humidity places, but apart from that I don't do anything special (other than what you'd do for any high-grade wooden instrument).

That's about as much as I can say about antique violin care - any information beyond this rudimentary level is way above my expertise.

[Julian Nichols]

I have a 96 year old and 120 odd year old violin. The younger of the two is worth 5 to 10 times the value of the elder. As long as you don't do something dumb like leave one in the car boot on a hot day, there isn't really that much you need to beware of.

With a really old violin, it would have been made for use with gut strings, so stringing them with modern synthetic strings can warp the neck. Any temperature or humidity change will throw gut strings wildly out of tune. They sound absolutely divine, but take a lot of work to keep in tune. Paganini used to swap violins with other players in the orchestra, half way through a caprice. His strings had already gone out of tune, you see...

Speaking of humidity, there is an original Guarnerius del Gesu (300ish years old) on display at the Abbey Museum north of Brisbane. It sits there unloved, with 2 busted old strings on it. I guess they want to keep it in original condition, but it seems like a crying shame that it is never played. Ahh, the songs that violin would sing if it were strung with gut...

And, in regards to the whole counterfeit thing :

http://blog.feinviolins.com/2012/01/paypal-made-me-smash-my-violin.html

AAARGH!!! >:(

The thing is, anyone who walked into a store in London in 1910 and saw a brand new violin with an "Antonio Stradivarius : Made in Cremona 1735" label would be well aware that they were buying a reproduction. There was no deception involved. Sure, it confuses people now, but the maker would not have considered that someone in 100 years time might be fooled.

[HA_DA_JA]

Hate to be a pain but I think I have one of those violins you just mentioned. IS it alright if I take some pictures and get your recommendation on what to do with it?
I have had it for about 10-15 years and it just sits under the house.
Cheers
Dale

[Drumstruck]

I'd forgotten that I have a violin packed away in the garage.... it's a Shimro brand about 20 years old (in a case and immaculate condition). If it was left-handed I'd have a go at it........

Are these worth anything?

[HA_DA_JA]

I think that brand was bought into the country by the same company that did Casio keyboards which is the same company that does a brand of coffee machines as well. Talk about diversity. I mainly saw the intro models and thought they were were a step below the Enrico models. Someone will need to correct me though as I am not a violin guy more of a guitar guy really.

[Julian Nichols]

OK guys, picture this : the proportion of entry level guitars that are sold compared to the number of Martin D28's, Taylors, etc. 95% of violins aren't really going to be worth very much. Old violins are generally worth a bit more, maybe because they may have aged well, or more likely been better build in the first place. Like the difference between an old Japanese made Fender Squier and one of those Chinese made Squier Affinity jobs.

Only maybe 0.1% of violins that are sold will hold or gain in value over their first 50 years or so.

But by all means post pictures of your violins and especially the labels inside them, and we'll do our best to give you a ballpark figure. So long as Rick doesn't mind this becoming the great TRock violin appraisal thread.

You'll probably be much better off going to an actual violin forum, though...

[HA_DA_JA]

I went to the shed and found it. I will need to take some pictures. I remember getting it set up a few years ago and it sounded quite nice when the guy played it. It had a lot of volume and sounded very clear.
The label inside says:
Antonius Stradiuarus Cremonensis
Faciebat Anno 1716
Made in Germany

The 1716 part has the 16 part is written in pencil. Not sure what that means.
Is it worth me taking some pictures cause I would have to do that tomorrow?
Cheers
Dale

[Julian Nichols]

Don't worry about taking the photos, it will probably be worth something so if you want to know what it is worth, you'd better take it to an expert to value.

What you have is a German 'trade' violin, most probably factory made. The 'Made in Germany' bit dates it as post 1891, when a law came in forbidding makers to attach labels that could be interpreted as counterfeits. But in all probability it will have been made 1900-1920 I would guess, something like that.

The label is Latin, translation :

Made in Cremona (Italy) by Antonio Stradivarius in the year 1716.

The 'Made in Germany' bit obviously gives away the fact that the above statement is not true. So it is a German copy of an Italian 1716 Stradivarius violin. There are excellent reproductions from the era, and some not so good. They can be quite nice violins, worth anything from $500 to $2000 as a very rough ball park figure. I financed myself though uni busking with one of these. Only upgraded when I found one of those bargains that comes along once in a lifetime, the elusive diamond in the rough on eBay.

[HA_DA_JA]

Where would be the best place to get it valued and/or put it on consignment as I have no desire to play or keep it? I doubt I would get anything near $2k for it but it would help pay off some bills. $4000 for braces for my boy would be a great bill to knock over.
Cheers
Dale

[Barney Loveland]

I used John Simmers for my double bass repairs when I lived in Bris. But he also does violins etc. You could try him.
http://www.simmersviolins.com.au

[Julian Nichols]

Err, $2k would be for a really nice one, I don't want to get your hopes up. Search through the violins on eBay and you'll find quite a few somewhat like yours, going for cheap. Violins are harder to sell than microphones - most people have only one, unlike *cough* microphones.

The only reason I suggest getting it valued is that, by evidence of the label, it has the potential to be worth something. Insurance value, and what you would get on the open market, are two very different beasts. And to get what your valuation suggests, it might take months to sell, depending on how you go about it.

Violins are very personal, the value is what someone will pay for it, unlike something like a Martin D28 or a Rode Classic II, which have somewhat more agreed on values in the second hand market.