JB - all the tracks you can download for $1.99?????

[The Tasmanian]

JB Hi Fi - all the tracks you can download for $1.99- per week???
again us musician's are getting screwed !
IMO this is just the start of others doing the same

how can we be expected to survive when our products are worthless?
Some of us just want to make albums and rarely tour - WTF do we do when all of the sweat and costs have been made and JB sells it for nothing?

makes my blood boil!!!

[ChrisW]

They have to have some kind of legal agreement to offer that.
It seems the major labels have sold artists and producers down the river (especially regarding Spotify).

[smash]

Still...
$1.99 a week equals $103.48 a year...

This is much more than Apple charges @ $35.00 per year for the iTunes cloud thingy.

Simon "Smash" Ashby

[Thirteen]

Recorded music is a sunset industry unfortunately.

[ChrisW]

I ask the question why though?
Madonna just proved albums are worth more than live performance. If you're an Aussie fan and you didn't see her in 1993, you have to travel thousands of miles to do so.
In addition, recorded music is hot right now, without question - with dozens of internet radio sites, streaming services, YouTube, cloud services, Apple APP's and smart phone players.
There have never been more people listening to more music...... and yet recorded music is 'a sunset industry'? Weird goings on.

[Julian Nichols]

If Porsche dealerships left the keys in all of the cars out in the saleyard, and the police shrugged their shoulders and didn't care whenever someone drove off in one, then we would have a record number of Porsche drivers, too.

Then Porsche would be going around trying to sell branded tshirts and charging entry to car shows to try and cover their losses - sound familiar?

[The Tasmanian]

How come you cant download unlimited books - or magazines - publications ? but music is OK?
Things are fuked up.

[Bent my VU]

Anyone still really want to buy and SSL? The electricity bill will be more than you make with it soon - didn't even mention keeping it running.

[Trent Griggs]

The Worldfuckers, always at work

[ChrisW]

Funnily enough, several SSL's have changed hands recently. Obviously still a demand.

[The Tasmanian]

Yes - and if many getting rid of these desks then it may be a smart time to get one?
There will be a place and demand for studios with consoles for a very long time IMO.
The more people drop the large console format - the more the studios who keep them running will get work.

The music industry will continue to expand - and so will the work, but everyone has to think and plan a lot smarter to survive now that an album has much less value than a box of matches in a shop........and as many boxes you can carry home for $1.99 per week

[Kurt]

I guess it's record companies trying to claw back some income from those who would download it for free.

I'm sure it costs a lot more to be able to make a box of matches than it does to be able to make an album.

Yes - and if many getting rid of these desks then it may be a smart time to get one?
There will be a place and demand for studios with consoles for a very long time IMO.
The more people drop the large console format - the more the studios who keep them running will get work.

The music industry will continue to expand - and so will the work, but everyone has to think and plan a lot smarter to survive now that an album has much less value than a box of matches in a shop........and as many boxes you can carry home for $1.99 per week

[JamesM]

Still...
$1.99 a week equals $103.48 a year...

This is much more than Apple charges @ $35.00 per year for the iTunes cloud thingy.

Simon "Smash" Ashby

If you are referring to iTunes match ....? All that allows you to do is upload and play songs from the cloud that you already own (eg cd) but have not officially payed for through iTunes... Not, the same thing really.

James

[Ben M]

Yet another kick in the balls for recorded music. Between services such as Spotify and this crazy fkn deal from JB we are losing control of our market and the delivery method of valuable creative products.
As I've said before on this forum, "we" (industry, musicians, engineers, production, studios, venues and so on) need to take control of our own material and take it out of the hands of these stupid non creative companies whose only interest is to devalue it and serve it up like lolly pops. Next we'll be hearing "do you want fries with that?" when buying our next song.
Flailing record companies are also responsible for offering up their catalogues for bugger all. In turn they're creating a very negative outcome for people creating new music and also creates a sort of "dime a dozen songs" mentality.

Live music in this country is still in big trouble and we seriously don't need another reason too give up on this industry.
Especially not for some company who made "an app" and think they can now devalue the entire music market and get away with it.

I'm very ready to sign petitions and walk the streets in protest. Anyone coming?

[heathen]

Yep this all stinks big time. It's weird how JB have an artist I recorded an album for, for sale. We had a signed deal with a certain company to release the album on their label. This was all years ago, label has shut down and their catalogue SOLD to JB. JB has NO permission from the artist to be selling this album (since the distro agreement ended), he has never seen a cent from either the label or JB. There were quite a few other artist this label screwed over also, from my research on the net.

This is another way people are being bent over, you don't even know who has your music for sale these days, with all the different distribution points and deals between distribution companies. Someone is making money but it's not the artists.

Now as much as you can eat for $1.99

Stuff protesting, I'm thinking more along the lines of a class action.

[The Tasmanian]

I don't think many will come Ben .......most have given in and have the mentality that it is a free for all
- and it is.
I can imagine a lot of people out there when seeing this ad saying " what $1.99??? - I can get it for free".

I'm making the commitment to not purchase ANYTHING from Itunes/Spotify etc
fuk them - I cant support them.
I still by CD's and Vinyl.
The net is great for research - but after finding stuff I would rather go to an artists website and buy direct.

I still enjoy the effort of walking/riding the pushie into a specialist music sore, perusing new albums, and exitedly coming home with a new album to listen to.
Such a different experience than some computer transaction...
no physical product to put on your shelf and admire...
Hence now music seems (is) worthless - because the product you are getting comes to you in a way that is impersonal, its boring, its instant - you made no effort as a consumer - all done by a mouse - your umbilical chord to the multinationals - that will one day soon find the stock they have will be worth nothing too????...

Heath that story is UGLY !!!
Rant....

[heathen]

Hmmmm just had a look at their online content and my mates album is not there, must be old CD stock the label offloaded to JB, anyway still sux he was never informed by the label.

Still can't believe $1.99 a week though, just crazy.

[ChrisW]

I've been heavily involved in anti-piracy, anti web 2.0 debates all over the web.
And yes, my final conclusion is the only way to turn this around is to find a solution ourselves.
I see it sort of like farmer's markets.
The supermarkets sell cheap and poor quality produce, but they are very convenient (like mp3's and iTunes/Spotify/Pirate Bay).
If a farmer doesn't want do a deal by Coles and Woolies, the alternative is to sell direct to the public. Engage with them and offer better quality.
Just like the supermarkets with Kraft, Nestle and Heinz, we don't need to find a better business model for mainstream pop, but for indie music and niche artists.
Someone should start a retail hub so punters can buy quality audio from artists direct.

[The Tasmanian]

SPOT ON !!!

[Text_Edifice]

Someone should start a retail hub so punters can buy quality audio from artists direct.

Chris I think this is what Bandcamp (http://bandcamp.com/) is doing, reasonably successfully. Digital and physical stuff - they take 10-15% cut on sales, no signup / setup fee, no exclusivity. Working ok for some indie / diy artists I know in Oz and OS. Also FLAC / full bandwidth downloads if you wish.

[rob]

hmm I've just looked at the JB site to see what this is all about. The fees I see are $6.88 or $10 a month depending if you want PC only or PC and mobile. So just like spotify, you aren't "buying" the music, you are subscribing to listen to it. I guess in this modern age some may not differentiate between streaming and owning a hard copy, but I know I certainly do. I couldn't be arsed with something like this JB thing or spotify. If I want to listen a particular piece of music, I'll grab the CD, LP, cassette or digital copy off the shelf and play it back on the tannoys in the listening room, the stereo in the lounge room, klipsch in the workshop, the sony in the shed or the car stereo. I don't want to dick around with internet connections and low grade outputs from idevices, phones or pc soundcards just to listen to something. What if I'm out in the bush and I want a soundtrack to go with it ... I don't want to scratch around for a high speed internet connection. If I want some background music on, I'll tune in the radio ... oh hang on, I don't pay to listen to the radio ... there's music for free ... but then the usual station I listen to is the local community radio station and I'm a subscriber .. so that costs me $50 a year ....
strange times ...

[Trent Griggs]

This issue has been making me furious for the last 10 year's. I could rant but I'd rather say something positive. I've been having the best time listening to my CD's lately. All of Alice in Chains back catalogue (amazing song writing, singing and production), Judas Priest "Sad Wings of Destiny" today ( classic album ). Even cooler, got my VP28 from the states today (thanks Chris), and the guy that put it together for me shipped it with a copy of his band's disc. It's this great quirky synth band with a cool singer. She sings in Kate Bush's low register. It was really cool and unexpected, and really a nice surprise. I listened to it 3 times. So I've been havin a great time listening to my cd collection. I've been listening to my vinyl too. I've never downloaded a song in my life. f@#$ the Worldfuckers. I'm gonna buy a bunch of Glen Hughes material now because I want it. Life's good right now and I'm pickin the perfect soundtrack everyday. f@#$ the D word. I wanna buy CD's while they're still making them.

[Thirteen]

Everything has a consequence. I have had an amazing career in music, more travel that I can care to remember, albums, studios, awards, concerts, TV shows and theatre.

One thing I do know is that all of the majority of really cool careers in the creative industries that we all dreamed about as kids and finished up living are now closed for business. I don't know what the kinds of jobs that kids in high school dream of having now, but I do know that they have closed the door in front of themselves by their actions on a lot of good ones. When they leave school they will never get to be recording engineers, career musicians, cinematographers, record producers, directors or all of the other positions in the motion picture and music industries, professional photographers, A&R, tour managers, TV producers and so on. Instead of serious careers such pursuits will be their hobby that they do when that are not at their day job.

Hope they enjoy listening to their pirated music while working at a call centre or at McDonalds, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

[rick]

Obvious question knowing your background Steve
But did you have a great run of things in your
Life paid for in large by actual record royalties ?

Or could the income and experiences be better described as sourced from various entertainment earnings ?

It seems to me it's human nature
Some guy will always figure out a way to entertain people .

And as soon as he does another guy will figure
Out a way to put a fence around it and
Charge us all to get at it ...

Sure there is a hole in the fence right now .. big hole
but i dont think its the unaware 11 years old kids fault

hell my kid is six and he has a digital multirack recorder on his nintendo and he makes music
every night in his bedroom .. taught himself , makes it for himself
i have had nothing to do with it except i became aware he was rapping over a backing track ( of sorts )
one night and went into see whats what
he is happy , too shy for an audience .. he doesnt seem to want one
so i let it be his secret mens business
I am astounded at the things he does
he has no internet .. no money either
.....
But more music is made today then at any other
Point in history .. Even the good old days

I am ok with the future ..
Nothing wrong with
A reality slap every decade or two .

Pretty sure the kids are alright though

,,,,Always have been

f@#$ JB HIFI they will send themselves broke soon enough
and take their partners with them
somebody else will take their spot .. thats how it works

[Thirteen]

Or could the income and experiences be better described as sourced from various entertainment earnings ?

It would be that one, but the people that paid me (artists, record companies) derived much of their funding from royalties.

I have no problem with kids placing no intrinsic value on music, films and so on, they are only operating on what is put in front of them, ie: computers and applications that allow unlimited copying and sharing. Because this is all they have ever known it is simply the order of nature for them, they have no concept of the costs involved in making the products that they see all around them. It's not their fault. What I am getting at is that the consequence of this is that when they reach working age they will be working in a world of their peers and the creative among them will still dabble with music, film etc, but it will be a hobby passtime with no significant career path.

The other consequence of computers is of course that the idea of musical training has been supplanted by applications that do music for you, you simply pick which drum loop goes with which bass riff. So things will change a lot no doubt, values shift and the things that were important to one generation are not regarded with the same degree of respect by another. There will always be kids who want to learn cello and play in an orchestra, there will always be orchestras, but those orchestra's won't be playing film scores, software will be doing that. There will be some singers who will want to sing without autotune too.

Gifted artists have always had patrons. Kings, queens and princes were the patrons centuries ago, in the 20th century it was the record companies that everyone loves to demonise. There are no patrons now so the next phase of popular music is the age of the laptop-in-living room. I am going to sit this phase out and wait to see what comes next.

[Sammas]

Hey Steve,

There is always the chance that the prosperity experienced in the music & recording industry up until the 1990's was just "a phase".

When you liberate music from single performances in concert halls and music venues and dish it out to the masses in very easily accessible ways, like on records, radio, cassettes, Cd's and now through digital channels, I can't help but think that perhaps its an action that always had a very limited shelf life for economic viability. I am left asking myself, how do you liberate music in such an abrupt fashion and expect to contain it forever?

The recording industry had the luxury of a bottle neck created by technology. Recorded music could only exist on a physical product.

I agree with Rick, though. There are still a lot of people out there making money off music. I think there will always be people making money off music simply because a lot of people are passionate about it. Recording studios are still getting booked. Albums are still getting mastered. Bands are still writing, recording and gigging. I don't think that will ever change. You may be considered one of the lucky few that rode the coat-tails of coincidence... when technology and the recording industry actually aligned and people made a decent living off it.

Here is an interesting essay... http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/9780472031955-ch2.pdf

[rob]

and ... there are new ways of doing art and earning a living. Amanda Palmer has done this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ama ... k-and-tour

maybe the punters can become the new patrons?

[rick]

Having stood onstage .. or actually side stage but still on stage with Bruce Springsteen one freaky time out of the blue and seeing 30,000 people looking directly at him , and when I looked up at the video monitors I noticed they were looking at us .. because I saw myself jumping up and down and clapping like a 5 year old next to him without even been being aware of it there I was bouncing like the village idiot on a 50 foot screen while the boss just grinned ..

I can only imagine the laser beam of that kind of adoration straight to the heart night after night causes the elite few that make that kind of crowd pleasing noise ..
I know you have seen and been in the middle (or the side ) of it many times over steve .

I am sure you know it is NOT the normal human condition
99.9999999% of musicians only ever dream of such things ..
thats ok
nothing wrong with dreams

my point which i guess we agree on is the kids are all right , it ain't their fault
they will work up something new

I am not sure the Springsteen, inxs, U2 , madonna size audiences will ever get a chance to grow from nothing in the future .. But really its cult stuff ...pop music is cult stuff ..
doesnt matter where it starts .. humans seem to find the cult experience like a magnet

the whole pop music process as we know it will Probably get replaced by 30,000 people watching a born again christian celebrity chef cook off .. Double elimination night !

I think its important if you or I or anyone figures they had it good at some point in this business to keep our heads up , give back what ever is viable and be careful and always respectful of the generation gap .. It's a looming minefield for any creative types .

I cannot afford to sit anything out ..
Onwards and upwards

[The Tasmanian]

Yes - as upsetting as it is with the race to the bottom with respect to the value of recorded music,
just like so many other industries we must innovate the way we do business - or get a day job.

[rightintheface]

As a young aspiring muso I always read these threads with interest, thanks for the thoughts all.

They are definitely interesting times for us young 'uns, no doubt about it. Music has definitely lost it's monetary value (and sometimes quality as a result) but I see more and more people my age and younger picking up instruments, joining bands, booking studios/cd pressing/mastering etc. A heap more than when I started in bands in high school in early 00's. I think the quality and type of studios that are getting booked is changing dramatically as the home studio takes over. But hey, how many kids straight out of school can afford SSL/Neve rooms to record in? I know I certainly couldn't. And what record company is going to give us the funds to do that? We all know they are scraping at the barrel as it is.

Sammas I think you have it right mate, the record industry had a great grace period while physical formats were the only ones available. And even then it didn't stop bootlegging, pirated tapes, then burnt CDs etc. We are all programmed to either seek the highest profit possible (as the seller) or seek the best bargain possible (as a consumer), and as a result we have pushed all our industries further and further away.

As a kid earning peanuts by reffing soccer on the weekend during the early 00's, I would head to the local Sanity (only record shop around) and try to buy the latest record. I remember paying $36 for Wolfmother's first album. It was all I could afford at the time, and even as a kid I though "faarrrk, this is a bit of a rip". Trying to get into older stuff, and all the "popular" old school tunes (zeppelin etc) were running $39, so it was lucky that dad had most of it on vinyl. Being a kid I didn't know better about finding stuff online, and in those days had slow dial-up, so what did we start doing? Burning CD's. I for one can be honest in saying that I have never downloaded a single track in my life, legally or illegally. However I have definitely been given burnt CDs that contained downloaded stuff. Balinese DVDs also. But as a kid, I just couldn't afford the prices they were in the big stores. Can anyone else remember how bullsh*t expensive stuff was before downloads/piracy really took hold? No wonder it happened, companies have been maximising profits for years. Same reason music stores around the country are going bust: profit margins were super high for years, internet/awareness improved, shipping improved, and suddenly everyone realised they were paying quadruple the price other countries were paying. Same for brands like Billabong/Beach Street that are going south. Profit margins in Beach Street were around 400-600% markup (that's coming from a guy I know that owned one).

I think one of the bigger problems in attitude is one that's been talked about before here I think: people WITH MONEY, who drop serious coin on a new M*cbook Pro, external harddrive, tablets etc, and THEN go out and download 100 albums for free (or $1.99). The people with the money don't want to spend it on petty music these days. it's not shiny enough, and hey "there's always another band"

That all said, I think there is a resurgence of dedication from people who are genuinely interested and passionate in music, hence the ressurection of vinyl. I play and go to lots of shows, and there is a solid core of young people that care about music, that want to play, are willing to pay door charges (as long as they aren't ridiculous), and willing to by cd's off local bands. Hell, I bought a demo the other day off a band that were amazing. The demo sucks, but I think it's important to do it anyway; I have the money now, so why not? And that's the important thing; if we HAVE the money to spend, then we SHOULD spend it. I never underestimate the power of encouragement. Does anyone else here go out to see local bands, and buy demos/eps etc? Because that's where the future is, in the people that are still trudging on with the definite knowledge that there is no profitable future in music. But we're still gigging. Still making demos, still booking studios. Still booking mastering. Still writing original songs that will NEVER make it to present day Triple J, let alone anything else bigger. The future isn't in labels, or contracts, or profit margins. Will all these kids be throwing themselves at $600+engineer fee a day studios with vintage Neve consoles, 96ch SSL's, vintage outboard pre's/comps? ........



Yes, the days of companies maximising profits from albums is over. Yes, some artists are allowing themselves to be exploited in the hopes of "making it". Yes, we will have to move on and work out how to make our art viable and self-sufficient in the "new age". No, I'm/We're not going to stop playing/buying/sharing/encouraging music because of it. Just have to back the right people.

the less we have to lose, the harder we will go.