where to start when mixing dense and layered songs?!?

[jkhuri44]

dear rockians,

i have a pickle of a dilemma on my hands at the moment....

i've almost finished tracking a rather large project...which is music with drums, rhythm and solo guitar, bass, vocals, and orchestral backscoring, and huge cinematic style percussion simultaneously...

i am mixing these on a protools system with lots of DSP cards...so ill be able to run plenty of tracks at the same time...(no racks...just lots of Waves Plugs as this is whats available to me, and all I can afford).

how do you start a mix with such a myriad of things to grab your attention....? Obviously its too hard to post your life stories of mix experiences, but any tips on how to take that first mouthful of this very large sandwich will be greatly appreciated!

And any book recommendations anyone can give on mixing film style works..like Hans Zimmer-esque material would be great...

:)

[Thirteen]

If each track is dense and complex, I would suggest getting a big sheet of paper for each track and making a "timeline" of each piece on it. Then listen to the piece, and in each section of the song decide what vocal or instrument is the main feature, what other instruments are important, which are just getting in the way, and draw a map of the song on your paper showing this.

This makes you focus on the individual instruments and gives you a map of how the song should be presented. Then, find the critical elements in the piece, and focus on mixing them first, building a relatively stripped back track that gets the point across according to the map that you have drawn, (vocals, bass, rhythmic elements, obvious "hook" and signature sounds) and then finally start bringing in the supporting instruments around the main players, most likely using a lot of cut EQ on them to sit them nicely around the main instruments.


Since you also tracked the pieces, be wary of mixing in the same room with the same monitors, unless you are in a great control room. Find good commercial tracks that are similar to what you are mixing and lay them up on a couple of spare tracks in Protools so that you can cut back and forth quickly and easily as a reference, particularly for balance and EQ.

[HA_DA_JA]

I too have just fallen into that trap and I really liked what you had to say about drawing a map. I have just finished my first full band recording and they had endless amounts of takes on 3 dfferent electric guitars with 3 x acoustic guitars with 5 vocals and 3 keyboards and 2 organs and dums and 3 x different bass gutars. I guess it was my fault for letting it go overboard but we were all excited to do the project.
Now that I have to mix it all down you begin to wonder where do I start.
Some of the guys will get pretty cut when they all cant be in the intro and playing all throughout the song.
I guess we need to sit down and do the map thing together! Great advice.

[chris p]

You guys ever hear of producers? They must do something to get their name on the cover.

More seriously, -

* do have someone you trust to advise you on what's working and what's not

* less is more at the start (unless you have a mega intro followed by quiet) - build the track through the song

* density creates mush unless thinly spread - use your frequency space and your soundstage space to get each track some room

* spend a night listening to some Alan Parsons - the maestro of the documentary soundtrack, even if it is passed off as a theme album

* have you ever heard of prayer? Sure beats blood sacrifice to the mythical gods of the clean mix. Hey, "Gods of the Clean Mix", there's a band name.

* read Stav's Mixing with the Mind? Its a really different perspective on how to do what we do.[/img]

[jkhuri44]

read Stav's Mixing with the Mind? Its a really different perspective on how to do what we do

yeh....having a read of stav's book has been on my list of things to do...now that tracking is out of the way...i should read it before mixing....


and...will be trying the map thing out very soon...


JK.

[Luke Garfield]

You could also try throwing up the faders and giving the whole thing a rough balance. Make a mix. Get away from the studio space with a pen and some paper and listen to the whole thing and make notes. I find you get more perspective, approach things creatively and get less bogged down in chasing "problems".

The list can help you "tick off" things as you do them too which also keeps you focussed and on track. Getting away from visual stimulation is also a great thing.

All the best with it!

[wez]

problem is you're attached to all the parts so you want to leave everything in, but....

don't think about how you'll make it all fit, try thinking about what you can leave out. you'll say "but no we worked really hard on that bit, and this bit can't possibly go", whereas a producer/mix dude will not give a shit that you spent 3 days on a guitar part, they'll just hear straight away that it doesn't work. so impartial ears are always a good idea.

other problem is when trying to make a lot of stuff work in a dense mix we invariably go for the compressors. this is problematic enough when we have a rack of tasty analogue goodies, when you start compressing every track with plugins (no matter what type, they're all ordinary to horrible) things become a horrible digital mess and hey presto, you've got a typical ITB mix. read your stav columns or whatever, he explains it better than me... but try and place things in the OTHER spaces available. ie EQ, panning, reverb etc. obvious i know but we all get so hung up on mixes being about faders, as an exercise try mixing without moving the faders and see how you go.

ok, if it is still really dense and you want to fit that orchestral part in, try throwing one side of that part out of phase (assuming it's a stereo part of course, panned hard LR). that can open up a new space for you to work in.

cheers, wez

[Luke Garfield]

I second wez's comments on ditching stuff. I had to learn this as I would always fill up every little bit of space - now I'm learning silence is just as powerful as sound (or some other esoteric fluff like that).

But then again your project may have been well planned and wont need culling. You may just need some good old "life giving" fader moves and some slicey EQ instead. :-)

[Henry]

I get the drums, bass and vocals mixed as perfectly as possible, sorta like my non-negotiables, then bring up the rest one at a time.

At any point you lose definition in the vocal or drums, you have to turn it down and make it stand out some other way. Maintain the authority of the drums, bass and vocal. When you got it all in there you can tweak the vocal, drums and bass and know that you won't lose anything off the table so to speak.

Try it, it really works.

[heathen]

Use automation to bring up the parts which need more impact at certain times and ride them back or out totally in places where they may not be needed, this way you end up with a more dynamic and interesting mix instead of trying to smash things into place with compressors and ending up with a flat sounding mix.

Nothing wrong with ditching some things altogether as said, better to have too many things at the start of mixing than not enough,just gotta work out what works and what does not.

[mal stanley]

Don't be afraid to throw out what's not needed..look at the overall arrangement of the track..if there isn't one..make one...
Build density as the track progresses...contrast sparse with complex if that's the effect that's appropriate..
Arrangement is vital..make a rough mix with everything and take it home..make notes...
You need a plan..once you have that you can proceed to pre produce with muting /automation etc so you can enjoy your mixing....