Digital guitar boxes

[Manning]

This is prompted by Pete Grandison's comment on Rick's Line 6 thread (see here: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=65078#p65037)

So let's have the argument: Fractal Axe, Digidesign 11, Pod HD, Kemper...

My position: I'm a guitarist first and foremost, and I was a skeptic. But then I heard a Fractal Axe and I am now a believer. (here's proof I can play guitar reasonably competently: http://dweezilzappaworld.com/videos/1964186)

I use my Fractal all the time for recording. I have asked other people to A/B recordings (Fractal vs a Fender Twin, Marshall JCM or ENGL Powerball), and they usually get them backwards. (This includes three guys who can rightfully call themselves mix engineers).

I've never used a POD, a Digidesign or a Kemper, so I can't comment on those. But I think the Fractal is the real deal.

Flame away

[ether]

Man, I could talk for days and days on this...

I think we've turned the corner. DSP algorithms, and the hardware it runs on, have now got to the point where they CAN replace our beloved valve gear.

Exhibit A: the AXE FX II

Exhibit B: Scuffham Amps (just buy it immediately)
http://www.scuffhamamps.com

Exhibit C: Eventide H9
http://www.eventide.com/AudioDivision/P ... es/H9.aspx

... and more amazing toys coming regularly.

I'm personally not going to drop 2.5K on an Axe Fx, though I'm very tempted. How's this for my alternative:

Guitar,bass,keys,whatever -> Apogee GiO -> MacBook Pro -> Apple Mainstage running Scuffham and a gazillion amazing plugins -> Matrix solid state amp (stereo) -> 2 Atomic CLR FRFR passive cabs

FRFR is a whole other discussion, but with the above setup I can craft my sounds using Logic X and plugins, then transfer them seamlessly to the studio quality live rig. Swap the GiO for something else and I can send exactly the same sounds to FOH via whatever connection they want, analog or digital.

Just have to be careful not to do a Pete Townshend on my Macbook

[Manning]

AJ - I'm off overseas for a month in Sept or Oct. You're welcome to borrow the Axe FX while I'm gone

[ether]

You sir are a gentleman.

I've been meaning to put some feelers out for someone around Sydney who has an Axe that I could borrow for a tad.

I insist on paying something, even if it's beer, or return borrowing of my gear.

Guitar wise of interest I've got nearly every Strymon pedal, and nearly every Moogerfooger.

When do you leave? I can make the drive to Laughing Duck to have a look, a chat, a beer, if that's where the Axe is.

[Manning]

"Reciprocating gear borrowing" is always my preferred currency.

Haven't got firm dates yet, but will let you know.

[ether]

We have a deal

Thanks heaps again.

[Kurt]

I remember reading a story in Sound on Sound (I think) a few years ago where they A/Bed a bunch of software amp sims with the real thing. The panel of judges included some well known mix engineers and guitar players. Most of them couldn't pick which was real and which was emulated, often preferring the sound of the emulation.

As a live soundguy I still prefer real amps but more and more bands are touring with the Axe FX. It seems many of the owners are using the same few presets, for an amp that can do anything they all seem to have a pretty similar sound. Djent anyone?

The Eleven never seemed to take off, for live metal at least, only seen one or two on my stage. Had a few Pods and Zooms, all sound fine to me.

This is prompted by Pete Grandison's comment on Rick's Line 6 thread (see here: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=65078#p65037)

So let's have the argument: Fractal Axe, Digidesign 11, Pod HD, Kemper...

My position: I'm a guitarist first and foremost, and I was a skeptic. But then I heard a Fractal Axe and I am now a believer. (here's proof I can play guitar reasonably competently: http://dweezilzappaworld.com/videos/1964186)

I use my Fractal all the time for recording. I have asked other people to A/B recordings (Fractal vs a Fender Twin, Marshall JCM or ENGL Powerball), and they usually get them backwards. (This includes three guys who can rightfully call themselves mix engineers).

I've never used a POD, a Digidesign or a Kemper, so I can't comment on those. But I think the Fractal is the real deal.

Flame away

[Manning]

Kurt - I lack your intimate knowledge of the metal genre, so I can't comment. I mainly use the Axe for pop, country and 70s rock/funk, and I find it always worthwhile to dial the sound in to whatever else is going on. If people aren't taking the time to find a unique sound (given how easy it is)... well that's just laziness really.

But for some random Friday-related reason, your comment about Djent made me think of the music related "Two Cows" jokes (these jokes apparently have their own wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_have_two_cows:

Alternative music: You have two cows. They're cool because no one else has ever tasted their milk before. When they do, you regard the cows as sell-outs.
Country music: You have two cows. No matter what you do, your cows keep leaving you and breaking your heart.
AC/DC: You have two cows. You milk them exactly the same way for 35 years.
Daft Punk: You have two cows, you have two cows. You have two cows, you have two cows. You have two cows, you have two cows...
Lady Gaga: You wear two cows.
Kanye West: You have two c... YO I'M REAL HAPPY FOR YOU, BUT BEYONCE HAD ONE OF THE BEST "YOU HAVE TWO COWS" JOKES OF ALL TIME! OF ALL TIME!
Steve Vai: You have two cows. People come from miles around to see how fast you can milk your cows. People who can't milk cows very fast don't quite get it.
U2: U have 2 cows. They moo in mysterious ways.

...and here's the metal one that made me laugh out loud:

Metal: You have two cows. In your opinion, one provides Ambient Symphonic Industrial Death Milk, but the other provides post-Ambient Symphonic Industrial Death Milk.

[rick]

I have no issue with software guitar sims or with hardware ones for that matter I hear them on peoples tracks I work on every day ...usually the better sounding tracks are the pretend ones !

Christ I had a original rockman when they were new and the rack rockman , and the half rack rockmans/sustainers so i am back nearly thirty years on that stuff .. I have had probably without exception had every vintage classic recording guitar amplifier ever mentioned
and if i didn't own it I have used it .
and the same with the guitars and the pedals .
I am bound to buy more pod type things in the future to allow guide tracking to be super super fast .

The way I see it
Recording guitars well is either really easy if you have cracked the code , F@#$ing impossible if you haven't or just plain mediocre if you just don't see what the big deal is .

For me to make it look easy cutting guitars in a studio .. I am going to line up about a $15- $20,000 set of things and then say "see ..? now just play your bit."

other guys might do it a shit load cheaper with a different collection of things they know work for them .. money is not the point there .. I am as broke as all of us.. over the years I have borrowed and recorded the fabled 59 lespaul that jackson had for the duration of the 80,90,2000 till doomsday , I have recorded on ALL of the tweed fenders , I have had a copper top ac30 ...and the 61 strat the 58 tele

but I have also done the moody /goldentone amps and sakai sg copy line of things as well

What you want by the way is a original series gretch duo jet , a copper top ac 30 and the common sense never to sell them in the search for a better guitar tone !

but its just getting together a combination of things that you know work for you..

grab an old or even new great sounding amp and decent guitar a neve and a neumann and your pretty soon in silly money territory .. double a few options up and its just stupid money and arguably not sane .

a new digital $2500 box that does all that easier is always exciting for me to think about and a totally viable format for records of any level
as is a $199 plug in or what ever I paid for the iz thing on my iphone
If it sounds right .. it is right .

but all that said .. great amped and miked up tracks feel ( not so much sound) like something really just happened to me in time and space.
and I think that emotion cannot be dismissed as invalid when its the only reward we may ever carry away from the session .


....
At some point manning I too will be lining up to try that axe 2 thingy and I better nick over and get those shotgun shells

---

the pod clean sounds make me giggle that they were allowed to even write the adds that suggested they were "modelled"

[rick]

btw manning that piece of you playing guitar is not what I do .. or could ever even imagine knowing how to to
pork pie hats of to you .. seriously .

I like to strum chords n simple stonking riffs , in my first band I had a guitar from k mart with a switch that said rhythm / lead
my mate had a hondo strat copy with a 5 way switch

its was a no brainer I had the guitar for rhythm he didnt !

we pulled out the highway to hell songbook
I played the first chord .. my mate played the second .. he played the third .. I played the forth

it took us months to get up to the actual lead part then it was clear .. his guitar didn't say anything .. so it must be the solo guitar .. !

"wadda play .. ? you play lead you play rhythm .." said the @#$% who's brother owned the golden lay paul ..

[Drumstruck]

.... but what about the blue glow?

.....and your roadie will be in the front row yelling "you're a sellout!!"


consider yourself flamed

<edit> and I also wish I could play the git like you Manning .....

[ether]

Given I don't have a top shelf mic and preamp cupboard (yet!) the Axe / software route is a given for me.

I certainly agree that whatever sounds and feels right to me, is right. As soon as the latency and I/O for an iPad or iPhone rocks I've got no problem using that. Little way to go on that front, but its a given.

But I sure as hell won't use the same presets as everybody else. And I certainly don't plan on using my various Pods any time soon. As usual all my favourite sounds come from using things fairly ass backwards:

Really bizarre double alternate tunings on a Variax 700 into a broken speaker kind of drive patch on a Vetta II.
Anything into a way dodgy Dynachord Echocord 76 tape delay.
Duesenberg into Mainstage via GiO into EHX 44 Magnum for ambient amazingness.
Baden acoustic into Champ reissue.
Tele into Crowther Hotcake into Moogerfooger delay into Mesa TA-15 (my current analog rig).
Lap steel slide into modular synth!
Left handed pawn shop guitar with rusty strings turned upside down to play as a righty into totally krap Fender solid state amp thingy I can't remember what it was but god for that 10 minutes it sounded awesome.
...

the fun never ends.

[ether]

.... but what about the blue glow?

.....and your roadie will be in the front row yelling "you're a sellout!!"


consider yourself flamed

I'm so lame I scrubbed the line 6 logo of my variax and unscrewed the logo from my vetta. Looks cool actually!

[Manning]

<edit> and I also wish I could play the git like you Manning .....

LOL, if you watch my woeful version of Zappa's "The Black Page" on Dweezil's site, you'll take that back. I have to slow the song down at two points because I couldn't get my fingers around those bits.

[Alistair]

I use modelling a little bit for demos- especially parts with lots of effects (and I count distortion as an effect). Most of them have fantastic effects- better than 99% of pedals.
But for a dry clean tone, they ALL get the attack wrong. It can work in a band situation, but sounds (and more importantly feels!) absolutely shocking playing solo guitar through them. Jazz- impossible

I'm yet to spend a great deal of time with an AXE fx or Kemper though. I like the idea of the Kemper, and my apartment would like having 1 amp instead of 6 or os.

[a.d.a.m. baby]

But for a dry clean tone, they ALL get the attack wrong. It can work in a band situation, but sounds (and more importantly feels!) absolutely shocking playing solo guitar through them. Jazz- impossible

What about mic'ing the actual strings at the bridge, and mixing that with the main signal, to help with the attack when using these things. Anyone tried that?

[Chris H]

But for a dry clean tone, they ALL get the attack wrong. It can work in a band situation, but sounds (and more importantly feels!) absolutely shocking playing solo guitar through them. Jazz- impossible

What about mic'ing the actual strings at the bridge, and mixing that with the main signal, to help with the attack when using these things. Anyone tried that?

What about just using an amp

One thing that helped me in the studio when a guitarist insisted on using his pod was to use the Hughes and Kettner Red Box which was essentially an inline speaker emulation devise as the speaker emulation in the pod was crap.
I have got to like some of the guit amps in Logic and sometimes use them to track through. but they still don't take eq as well as when I record through any of my amps, they don't layer as well, and I agree about the attack and feel issues. They are simply not as responsive as an amp to the different ways I plull a sound with plectrum or fingers. One use that is convenient is reamping an already recorded guitar amp when you want to try to shape the sound differently. They are definitley more powerfull than eq in this application blended in under the original track or panned to the other side.

[Manning]

They are simply not as responsive as an amp to the different ways I plull a sound with plectrum or fingers.

I'd agree with that statement for any of the software sims.

But I'd disagree with the Axe FX - I find it no different to an amp in terms of responsiveness.

[Chris H]

They are simply not as responsive as an amp to the different ways I plull a sound with plectrum or fingers.

I'd agree with that statement for any of the software sims.

But I'd disagree with the Axe FX - I find it no different to an amp in terms of responsiveness.

I have never tried the Axe FX.......
Here is a scenario: I would like to see how it compares to when for eg; controllable sustain feedback ie, playing live I know the spot to stand when I crank the gain just enough to get the feedback happening so it just sustains under control but you can mess with the overtones and harmonic texture. Then back off the gain on the guit a smidge and stand out of that sweet spot and it's back to less sustain for normal "soloing". The other issue is pressence on stage, does it have the same presance or impact as a great valve amp sound.
Also what I'm saying is with the Axe FX, any difference may well not be a matter of better or worse, just different. I also feel an electric guitar with the strings locked at bridge and nut are a very different beast sonically than a Strat with floating trem and I think the former lends itself to the Amp sim side of things better than the latter.

[Manning]

Part of what you are talking about involves having the sound at a level where the guitar can respond acoustically, so obviously running the Axe direct and monitoring through headphones can't achieve that.

But when I need that responsiveness I've connected the Axe to an FRFR cabinet and it works beautifully. My main two rock/fusion guitars are an Ibanez Jem 7V and a Steinberger GL4T, both of which have floating bridges (although very different designs). Feedback is far more about the guitar than the amp IMO - it's very hard to get controlled feedback from a nasty guitar, no matter how good the amp is.

FWIW, guys like Dweezil Zappa and Guthrie Govan are touring using the Axe with FRFR enclosures.

Here's some Derryl Gabel through the Axe for you (one of my fave players):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bia9RXYvU

[Alistair]

Worth adding- I pretty much always play hollowbody guitars, and the few solids I have are very resonant. If I played solid metal/fusion sorta guitars like you Manning, I think I would enjoy modelling a little bit more. Those guitars tend to have a much more focused, controlled and even sound, and I can see that working with modelling.

But I like the jangles and weird things that come out of big silly old guitars. It would feel a little old putting my 60 yr old Gibson into a computer.

[Alistair]

Worth adding- I pretty much always play hollowbody guitars, and the few solids I have are very resonant. If I played solid metal/fusion sorta guitars like you Manning, I think I would enjoy modelling a little bit more. Those guitars tend to have a much more focused, controlled and even sound, and I can see that working with modelling.

But I like the jangles and weird things that come out of big silly old guitars. It would feel a little old putting my 60 yr old Gibson into a computer.

[Simon B]

Here is my quick take on them all.

First up it took me along time to appreciate modellers, an it was when i treated them as an effect more the trying to sound exactly like the amp it supposedly based on that i could appreciate them.

The Axe FX II can sound unbelievable with tweaking! but there are so many tweakable options that more time is spent tweaking then playing or recording. An example of one of the many options is the tube bias can be tweaked. I would say there are too many options.

The Kemper is an amazing concept. it replicates signals almost exactly! Where it came unstuck for me is, once the signal chain is replicated. changing the sound gets unmusical. For me I would have to do alot of profiles changing the tonestack to suit. The other thing with the kemper in comparison to the Axe fx II, the body of the sound sounded only like a single mic. which it is. the Axe, had a body to the sound like 2 mics. Something we did with the kemper was sum 2 mics into the inpt an profile that. an it came up sounding huge. now I am not sure if that is good or bad for the unit.

Where Eleven rack came up for me is relatively easy to use, an considerably cheaper. an very usable sounds. I wouldnt say they were mind blowing sounds, but usable none the less.

Something else I would like to throw into the mix is the Yamaha THR5 These things are less than $350, an have many options. if guitar playing folk havent heard of them I suggest giving them a look

My balance with digital an real amp was, getting up a sound very quickly using eleven HD an focusing on performance, an then I would reamp without the band, it was a lot less time consuming for the muso's

I am of the opinion whatever sounds best, real/digital amp, outboard/plugin.

[Bent my VU]

I really like the digital boxes for some things, just never found they had the "feel". The only time I've really enjoyed them was playing them with cab sim bypassed, through a good power-amp, into my cab - which defeats the purpose. Although, if the models have improved it would be a great way to get a number of good amp sounds on the cheap.

Having said that I can't see myself paying 2500 for a digital box.

[Wiz]

I really like the digital boxes for some things, just never found they had the "feel". The only time I've really enjoyed them was playing them with cab sim bypassed through a good power-amp into my cab - which defeats the purpose. Although if the models have improved it would be a great way to get a number good amp sounds on the cheap.

Having said that I can't see myself paying 2500 grand for a digital box.

Thats how i used my POD PRO years ago.

I ran it into a power amp and a cabinet loaded with 2 speakers. Worked well.

I remember the angels Rick Brewster using a POD into a Marshall at a gig.