Rockwool or 703 equivalent in melbourne

[harry]

Hi Guys,

i was wondering if anyone here knew where to get proper rockwool in melbourne.

I don't exactly know if im after Owens Corning 703 / 705 - i have heard that there is a product called insulco - semi rigid - this stuff comes with a sheath of balck paper attached which i imagine stops dust particles from leaving the insulation.

On another note i have heard that products made from 'glasswool' are nowhere near as 'fireproof' as those made from mineral rock. Do we think it at all matters....

If any of you out there have ever made traps using this stuff i'd be curious to know how much it 'shrinks' if at all when you wrap it in cloth covering? I'm building some frames to fit the usual sheet size of 1200 x 600 to avoid cutting (dust from sheets) and waste and i want the absorbers to fit snuggly in their frames.

Thanks guys

[rick]

what you want is TONTINE acoustisorb 3
ring tontine fibers ( in melbourne) and they will sendyou to a distributer

its better then rock wool and does not make you itch

[Jason Dirckze]

Indeed! The Tontine is very cool.... I have a whole stack of it sitting in my garage waiting for me to finally finish building the frames for them.

[harry]

Hey thanks for the suggestions gents.

One thing im not sure about is the fire rating of glass fibre products. Now i know that they are approved by the aust building code but they melt at 250 deg as opposed to rockwool which combusts at 1130 deg.

I think i might try and find a rockwool / equivalent product (no luck yet)

Also, would putting this stuff on your walls violate any fire safety codes or void your insurance (if say they could argue that it helped spread a fire more quickly than if it wasn't there)

I wonder if one of our many lawyers would have any ideas? (i'm not operating commercially so it would relate to a home fire policy)

I think i sound like a worring obsessive compulsive type - but i do know how fast a vertically hanging material (ie cloth covering an acoustic batt or curtain) burns when on fire.

thanks guys

[astrovic]

Also, would putting this stuff on your walls violate any fire safety codes or void your insurance (if say they could argue that it helped spread a fire more quickly than if it wasn't there)

I wonder if one of our many lawyers would have any ideas? (i'm not operating commercially so it would relate to a home fire policy)

I've got Tontine gobo's and ceiling clouds in my home studio, which means I'm either not worried about it or haven't thought about it. They were super easy to work with and my studio sounds a ton better.

When tested in accordance with AS1530 Part 3-1989 "Early Fire Hazard Properties of Materials", Plain AcoustiSorb 3 plain and faced meets the AS1668 requirements of spread of flame 0, and smoke developed no greater than 3 for the internal lining of ductwork

I don't what that all means, but it sounds good :)

I'm not really an insurance lawyer (although I am dipping my toes in on a fire insurance case at the moment, and handle about 2-3 cases/advices per year), but I would suggest - have a read of the policy schedule for your insurance. That's your contract, and if nothing there relates to your concerns, you're probably fine. Also compare the fire rating of this stuff to ordinary pink batts - if they're in the same ball park, you'd have a pretty good case if they tried to say you put your house at risk. Also explain your issues to your broker and see whether they think this is something that should be specifically be included in the policy (and if it means that the premium will increase, then of course it should be included!).

[NYMo]

The insulco is available in 2400x1200 sheets either 50mm or 25mm thick and 48kg/m3....either black faced or not.

I hear tontine is WAY more expensive (must check this out) ??

the insulco is around $150 for a pack of three sheets( 50mm).

hope this helps

Cheers
N
Y
M
O

[astrovic]

A mate and I split a pack of 6 sheets of Acoustisorb 3 2400 x 1200 for $150 each...what I currently can't remember is thickness of the sheets. I have a feeling they were 50mm (I'm not at home ATM so I can't pull out the measuring tape), but they could have been less.

[graemeh]

Having worked with both tontine and rockwool (and fibreglass, rigid and normal), just get the tontine, you won't regret it - you don't even need gloves. One late night I even slept on it!

[jon.l.hunter]

Actually the new rockwool stuff, I think I was using "Soundscreen"
is not as bad as the old stuff I didn't need gloves

[PeterR]

http://www.insulation.com.au/INSULCO/WEB/RESOURCES/DOCUMENTS/HVAC_Industrial/Datasheets/Acoustic-Data.pdf

I used the 50mm Semi-Rigid IEI from Insulco. Which I think is only 32kg/m not 48kg/m

I got 2 packs of 50mm with no backing.

$150 a pack - 5 pieces of 2.4m x 1.2m per pack.

For the traps with a lot of air behind (across corners and back wall) I doubled it up for 100mm thickness. I made a frame from the cheapest Pine I could find (not treated) and covered it in calico (used staple gun). It looks average but its only for me. If you wanna do a better job use nicer material. I found the semi-rigied very good to work with. Wore a mask just in case but didn't need it. Its so solid that it doesn't flake or fluff up like your normal cieling batts. I cut it with a big sharp knife outside and that was that.

I made these with 2 packs with spare left:

*2.4x1.2m broadband corner traps across the front corners of the room (floor to ceiling).

*more smaller corner traps across all ceiling-wall intersections.

*Cloud over mix position

*Cloud over vocal position

*2.0x1.2m Rear wall trap - 100mm off wall.

*small 50mm absorbers at first reflection points of speakers on front walls.

Night and Day difference after I was finished.

Peter

[Brent]

The last price I had for 50 mm acoustisorb 3 was $135 ish for a pack of 3 2400*1200 (8.64m2).Delivery was $50 for a truckload.Prices have just gone up, I think from memory 15%.

[jon.l.hunter]

How do Homemade broadband absorbers compare to
Real Traps or GIKs - anyone own both

I once heard(???) some absorbers they use in the orchestra pit at Parramatta Riverside Theatre I don't know what they were but when I stuck my head near them I thought I'd lost hearing in one ear - it really scared me for a second!!! - I have not had the same thing happen from Rockwool

[rick]

trust me
tontine ac3 is the best product hands down
and it passes every test with flying colours including fire
i would not consider building a studio in australia with any other product

[harry]

I think i'm sold on the tontine then.... Thanks Guys,

Just one more thing,.... how much does it 'shrink' when you wrap it in cloth?

i'm just getting some studio furniture fabricated and i was going to get the frames for the acoustic panels fabricated before i get my hands on the insulation. I am making the frames have a height of 1200 to allow for the size the sheets come in.

and is that stuff 32kg per m3 or 48kg per m3? can't remember what is better for bass traps (superchunks) and panel absorbers

[tonymite]

Harry - if we had a war in Australia every 7 years - would you be so Greek about tontine ?

[rick]

i am not sure about how you would measure the shrink rate but if you really mean "shrink" then tontine doesnt
if you mean how much can you compress it before it doesnt lie flat and bulges out of control then the answer is
" a lot "

presuming you understand how the bass traps you are building work and why they are the size you have chosen , i guess there must be a scientific calculation at hand for you for the right amount of fill , but seeing i have never seen a job where the acoustician actually got those numbers right , save your self a big headache and EXPECT to have to fill or empty the chamber once or twice to get the room to sound right.
this is where the price of tontine will repay you many times over , it is NO problem to repack untill it sounds right , all the others products are such a drag to touch , you will just leave them as is , and that usually means as is not quite right

i am not really sure what your building here but i promise you if the questions you have need to be answered , i am sure you will have to " tune" your traps after you build them ( because everybody does !)

and the obvious one is are you sure you actually need bass traps because most of the once i have ever seen cause bigger problems then they solve and in due course i will be removing the last one from one of my studios for good.

but of course in the right spot for the right reason they are magic

if you are using tontine to make hf attn panels and not basstraps then your probably better off with a flat open cell acoustic foam
and that as they say is a whole other story ...

[Linear]

I've used both Tontine and Insulco Semi-rigid.

Yes the Tontine product is probably better for your general wellbeing, however the insulco product is bio-soluble so the worst you get is a little itchy when handling it. So long as it's not exposed, you don't get any residual dust around the place (i guess i'll tell you in 30 years if it has any long-term side effects...)

As for absoprtion properties, well I'm afraid Semi-rigid smokes Tontine:

50mm uncoated - sound absorption coefficients:

Freq - Tontine - Semi Rigid
125 - 0.28 - 0.41
250 - 0.60 - 0.84
500 - 0.83 - 1.02
1000 - 0.91 - 1.25
2000 - 0.91 - 1.22
NRC - 0.80 - 1.10


Chris

[harry]

Hey Guys,

here are some pics of the plans i have made:

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/studiodesign2


I was asking about shrinkage because i was going to wrap the insulation into a bundle first and then attach it with velcro to sit inside the wooden frames. It just occured to me that i can just stack the insulation inside the frames and then attach the burlap / cloth material to a light frame and attach that to the front (like hifi speaker grills)


Rick, you make an interesting point regarding the acoustics.
From the months of reading i have been doing i have concluded that putting bass traps in corners is the most efficient - the two front ones are 'superchunks'. I am a bit skeptical about the one in the back wall / ceiling junction (it will take 5 1/2sheets to fill it!) so i might wait to see if i need it.

I could need between 9 to 20 sheets of 1200x2400 - is this overkill???

Because of the amount of stuff in the room, i have few options as to where i can put stuff.

I tried to ensure that the first reflection points were covered (side walls, ceiling, rear wall)

For the side walls / rear walls - i can put either:

50mm with 50mm airgap
100mm with no airgap
100mm with 50mm airgap

what would you do??

[rick]

hey chris are those the specs for acousticsorb 3 ...?
they dont look even nearly right.

my brand allegence to tontine is based on the idea that studio acoustics are just not the science
we have all been led to believe
you must consider it a moving target game.

tontine works and if it doesnt you can keep moving it around untill it does thats the reason i choose it
the specs are really just the small print that means little if the structure is not right
but it is the ease of use and effective results that is the paramount reason to go tontine

anything that makes you "itchy" is breaking down into minute razor sharp fibres and actually cutting your skin
mixing with your blood and causing an allergic reaction
god knows what happens when you breath the fibres it in
actually csr probably knows all too well !
so if somebody could tell me the point in putting hazardous materials in our life on purpose then i would like to know

harry i charge a very reasonable rate to walk you through the realities of studio builds and construction and have a growing list of clients that will confirm that even one 1 hour converstation with me has saved them a lot of time and money i am thinking you have embarked or are about to embark on the hard and expensive ways to tune your room
so if you need real help just ask ( err and pay... )


even chris in the above post who has tried both products had a long turtlerock acoustics chat or two when he set up his studio and my perspective on things seems to have been pretty well laid out in his studio - back in the days when i gave the information away for free :)

[harry]

Hey Rick,

oh ow... i suspect u believe i'm goin about this all wrong.
I'll definently be interested in your 'consultation' service.... might even order a few more sifams from you (if u got em) while i'm at it.
Will email you asap.

Chris - i think the specs you quoted are for acoustisorb 2 (32kg m3)
acousticsorb 3 is more inline with the insulco specs (pretty close - actually slightly better down low - 125 region)

Thanks again guys!

[Linear]

hey chris are those the specs for acousticsorb 3 ...?
they dont look even nearly right.

my brand allegence to tontine is based on the idea that studio acoustics are just not the science
we have all been led to believe
you must consider it a moving target game.

tontine works and if it doesnt you can keep moving it around untill it does thats the reason i choose it
the specs are really just the small print that means little if the structure is not right
but it is the ease of use and effective results that is the paramount reason to go tontine

anything that makes you "itchy" is breaking down into minute razor sharp fibres and actually cutting your skin
mixing with your blood and causing an allergic reaction
god knows what happens when you breath the fibres it in
actually csr probably knows all too well !
so if somebody could tell me the point in putting hazardous materials in our life on purpose then i would like to know

harry i charge a very reasonable rate to walk you through the realities of studio builds and construction and have a growing list of clients that will confirm that even one 1 hour converstation with me has saved them a lot of time and money i am thinking you have embarked or are about to embark on the hard and expensive ways to tune your room
so if you need real help just ask ( err and pay... )


even chris in the above post who has tried both products had a long turtlerock acoustics chat or two when he set up his studio and my perspective on things seems to have been pretty well laid out in his studio - back in the days when i gave the information away for free :)

Hi Rick,

I don't disagree at all - and yes I do appreciate the help you gave me when setting up this little shop ;-0 Note people that if it wasn't for rick, my control room would have been setup sideways... not good. i also would have gone to all the effort of soffit-mounting the monitors, and I'm glad i didn't.

When I was looking to purchase insulation I remember considering tontine but found that it didn't stack up against the semi-rigid - maybe the AC3 has addressed the absorption issue...? I don't think it was around when I was looking to buy.

For some reason, I don't mind glasswool. Unlike asbestos, glasswool dissolves so it won't ever remain in your lungs or system. When I handled it, I used overalls, gloves, mask and glasses. Wasn't ever a problem for me.

But I do see your point, so I guess it's horses for courses. And if you ever plan to move or handle the insulation in situ, then of course go for the tontine.

Cheers

Chris

[Brent]

The lighter density stuff is pretty useful in conjunction with semi-rigid if your going after decent thickness.If there is too much thick rigid stuff the entrance impedance becomes too high (particularly at shorter wavelengths) and you can get reflection.Lowering the gas flow resistivity of the material (ie. lower density) actually allows gains in absorbtion beyond 6 inches in thickness.Or so I've read...

I've done some extremely unscientific experiments with this phenomena that have extremely unscientifically corroborated this.

[NYMo]

For everything about studio builds you ever wanted to know....

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php

(it'll take a good 6 months of your life to get thru it all....i speak from personal experience !)

cheers
N
Y
M
O

[jon.l.hunter]

OK back on the insulco vs. tontine issue

I've been trying to get my head around all the math of this absortion science and I have come up with is result which of course is just a result on paper and unless someone actually want to pay to treat my room with both products so we can test properly this will have to do

I have concluded that for 50mm uncoated treatment
based on linears coefficient numbers for insulco & the numbers for acoustisorb 3 off thier website and based on the parameters of my room including speaker positioning etc in a 2d plane (cause thats all my brain can take at the moment)

tontine should produce a more even sounding room. insulco infact
absorbs too well in certain frequencys

& so acoustically speaking acoustisorb 3 is the winner for my room
only by a nose

so hopefully the price differs only by a nose.

Harry did you end up ordering any?
how much did you pay?

Jon

[NYMo]

Hi there,

This is a quote i got when this thread was active (and i have to do some buying next week ...so i'm glad this has come up!)

tontine acoustisorb 3 $280 per 5 pack.
2400x1200 x 50mm 48kg

cheers
N
Y
M
O

[jon.l.hunter]

That seems pretty good
I thought I'd be spending twice that

who was that through
I've put an email through to tontine asking about retailers in NSW and I've had no response


Anyone else know of places to get it in Sydney (the further West the better)

Jon

[Sheer Noise]

I got my tontine from a supplier in Seven Hills... they gave me a stack of off-cuts for free as well. I'll dig up the contact (if they still exist) when I get home tonight!

Dave