What's happening to the recording industry? and its future?

[The Tasmanian]

And I still have no smiley faces to see - where are they?
Wiz - by all means keep your threat of your post up, attempt to embarres me by all means - I'd call that out as bullying.
And hypocrisy.

[Wiz]

And I still have no smiley faces to see - where are they?
Wiz - by all means keep your threat of your post up, attempt to embarres me by all means - I'd call that out as bullying.
And hypocrisy.

ooops oh, I didnt mean that at all, I really do apologise... I will immediately go and delete it...

sorry

[ChrisW]

Sorry a lot of what Mitch said was pure furfy.

Recording industry dying = no more rip off deals?
You're talking about major labels, not 'the recording industry'. There is NO link between four or five guys collaborating on making a record and people being ripped off.
PS: The are quite a few instances of artists being ripped off worse by the tech industry. I don't think it's valuable to slam the major labels, then claim the alternative is better. It's worse.

A service no longer required?
Young people are using music as much as ever. More.
Every cell phone is choc full of commercial music. You get music sitting on your flight before take-off. The average wedding or funeral isn't accompanied by an old woman playing hymns on an organ any more. It's accompanied by popular commercial music.

You're studying a 'useless degree'? I have to ask why you are doing it.
You study to learn. You don't study to be rewarded with a job. At the very least you should be increasing your knowledge and your skills. If you are not, you should be studying something else.

The coopers analogy is dead wrong.
People still listen to recorded music. Therefore there is no evolution making music recording redundant.
I disagree strongly with this tech blog mantra that people will always make art.
Sure, people will always play Aussie rules, people will always surf. people will always cook.
Society deemed it was a positive that we pay sportspeople, chefs and musicians so they could concentrate on their passion, and be better than they were. There is no 'more purity' in being a musician two days a week, just like you aren't a more honest surfer if you really work for the NAB and surf on Saturday.

[ChrisW]

if the recording industry has to die - like coopers etc etc - because it is no longer a necessity or needed service then that is exactly what will happen.

Yes. I wont get between Chris T and Wiz about whether music is a 'service'.
But more than ever, people want recorded music. So it isn't 'a service' that is no longer needed. It is needed!
More people want to own more music. More people than ever want to make music their career.
The only thing that's changed is that an unfair market system (piracy) has ripped the floor out from under the price.
It's like if farmer pirates found away to give a way free milk. As much as you want, whenever you want.
Dairies would go under and farmers leave the industry. Woolworths and Coles would see a massive drop in profit.
Cows and dairies wouldn't have been made unnecessary, just uneconomical.
People drink milk, people still love music. Tell me what else has changed?

[Wiz]

I think, that some analogies between the recording industry and other bygone industries can be drawn.

In the context of that those industries that have gone by the wayside, either morphed or died due to technology changing underfoot.

For example the horse vs car.

Saddle fixing dudes jobs wained, mechanics jobs came into existence.

My parallel earlier with all the staff and support industries to maintain a clean room for computers of the eighties and nineties vs now.

Sure, I agree that things aint what they were and I never got to experience what they were when the were what they were 8)

I wonder if we could talk about for a bit, particularly you guys who lived through what it was when it was what it was 8) see as the solution to the problem.

I cant see anyway of things returning to what they were without a technological shift of some sort. The genie is out of the bottle as far as digital audio goes.

[ChrisW]

I think, that some analogies between the recording industry and other bygone industries can be drawn.

In the context of that those industries that have gone by the wayside, either morphed or died due to technology changing underfoot.

For example the horse vs car.

It ISN'T a change in technology. It's a consumer driven rort on price!
Sorry I get quite passionate about this particular aspect - maybe like Chris T.

People still love commercial music in the form of professional recordings. THE most popular music to pirate is the same music that tops the charts. It's not like everyone is downloading John Doe - unknown, unsigned, home recorded - instead of katy Perry and Coldplay. Everyone is downloading katy Perry and Coldplay, they just aren't paying for it, making the economics of professionalism in music very, very hard.
The music industry isn't a 'bygone industry' (exasperated). Simon Cowell is the highest paid person on television.
People listen to pop music, made by professionals, professionally recorded. So how is that analogous to the horse that no one uses to get from A to B any more?

[Wiz]

I think, that some analogies between the recording industry and other bygone industries can be drawn.

In the context of that those industries that have gone by the wayside, either morphed or died due to technology changing underfoot.

For example the horse vs car.

It ISN'T a change in technology. It's a consumer driven rort on price!
Sorry I get quite passionate about this particular aspect - maybe like Chris T.

People still love commercial music in the form of professional recordings. THE most popular music to pirate is the same music that tops the charts. It's not like everyone is downloading John Doe - unknown, unsigned, home recorded - instead of katy Perry and Coldplay. Everyone is downloading katy Perry and Coldplay, they just aren't paying for it, making the economics of professionalism in music very, very hard.
The music industry isn't a 'bygone industry' (exasperated). Simon Cowell is the highest paid person on television.
People listen to pop music, made by professionals, professionally recorded. So how is that analogous to the horse that no one uses to get from A to B any more?

My context for the change in technology statement is thus.

Before digital audio (tape and vinyl) you could copy, but it was A)inferior quality and B) tiresome, had some expense, and limited in its capacity.

After Digital Audio, you could copy with no loss in fidelity if you wished, it was free, and it was immediate and expansive.

Does that make it clearer...?

What killed the industry (in my mind) is the lack of security around the digital medium. I know there failed and circumvented attempts .. SCMS etc.

I think the industry died (like all others) because there was no more way for the people who bankrolled the industry could get a return on their investment.

If the CD or digital audio had not come along and it was still vinyl and cassette we wouldnt be having this conversation I dont think.

Any industry, anywhere, cannot survive if their product is now free.

How do you fix that?

[ChrisW]

Yeah, but the bottom line is people decided they needed free music more than they needed to support the workers who created the music.
It's as basic as that!

Walk into a dairy and walk out with 2 litres without paying. You haven't made the dairy obsolete, you've just persuaded yourself you deserve free milk more than the person who paid to make it needs your money.

Young musicians canibalise their own prospects if they download without paying, and use crack software.

[Wiz]

Yeah, but the bottom line is people decided they needed free music more than they needed to support the workers who created the music.
It's as basic as that!

I can see that.

you know though, I think people didnt really "decide" per se... they just kinda got into it.. a bit like eating too much at a all you can eat salad bar. I dont really think the majority of them, had any real idea that what they were doing was lead to the situation we are in.

Its a complex issue for sure.

[ChrisW]

How do you fix that?

Persuade people that creativity is more diverse and innovative when it's supported.
They're dreaming the dream that 'art will always be created'.
That's why we have thousands hoping to get in to Opera school right? And the AIS Badminton program. Because you can have a viable career and feel valued....... not.
Strip rewards and even basic sustainability out of popular music, and you'll see an exodus of the best and brightest.
I'm saying that's what will happen (now), but people are too drunk on free product to want to hear it.

[ChrisW]

I dont really think the majority of them, had any real idea that what they were doing was lead to the situation we are in.

People knew and know it's the wrong thing to do. That's why these mythical excuses have been invented. "Record labels screwed musicians". So I'm fighting back by pirating music...... err, and also screwing musicians.

The whole Pirate Party thing about copyright reform. No one cared about copyright before Napster and The Pirate Bay. No one even knew what it was.

But people know they can get away with it.
There is also no means testing on music piracy. A very well paid local told me he'd downloaded a bunch of free albums from the internet. Then looked embarrassed after the fact realising what he'd said.

[Wiz]

Its interesting, and I have no way to back up any of this, its just my musings...

I would think its a really small portion of the population that would "steal" a car just cause it was sitting there with keys in it. But a much much higher portion would break copyright law.

My guess, uneducated as it is, is that its seen as a victimless crime, pirating music.

as I said earlier though, I just think the genie is out of the bottle...

[rightintheface]

I was referring to the first post of this thread: would you recommend a career etc etc different forms of professional music. Of course you wouldn't. There are no careers. That's what this is about. The viability of art (music) as a profession is gone. Like ChrisW is saying with the dairy analogy. it's in a shocking state and there's no magic wand to suddenly give it worth. The only thing you can really do is adapt. There are alreay some groups starting to (tenderly) stand up and declare the need for live music etc (like the mob in Annandale).

In terms of the dying services, I get you guys are passionate about it because it's the profession you are in, but like we are saying there is no money in it, so eventually there won't be the jobs at all except for the very very high up still with enough bank to roll out Katy Perry's etc. the middle ground will disappear and go underground, as it has been doing for years. It's not going to stop music being made, or bands forming in high school and wanting to do it for life. It will survive and continue, even if it's a different shape. no matter what money is involved. Some kids will miss out, but the smart ones will find it anyway.
This is obviously a very wide brush I'm painting with, but you know what I mean.

And yes the tech industries will suffer the same fate: Aussie engineers design something great, someone ships it off to china and gets it reproduced, sells it for an 8th of the cost. Whats the consumer going to buy?
Film is in a similar spot to music too. It's all going down the shitter as the consumer goes for the cheapest price. With music/film that price is a click of a button and a small bump in the data usage that month.

[Linear]

In France, if you download torrents from Piratebay or whatever, you will likely receive a letter from your ISP about copyright infringement.

They run a 3-strikes policy, so by the 3rd letter your details get passed on and your account is suspended for up to a year. And you still have to pay for the connection.

Apparently this has deterred pirating and digital sales of music went up not long after it was enacted in 2009. My brother-in-law received a letter, so promptly found a way around it.

It is a step in the right direction though, and while eliminating torrents completely will be impossible - it would at least sideline in to the hardcore groups that will always insist on copyright-free.

So it is possible to reduce, but not eliminate, copyright infringement - it more comes down to lobbying and the will of the government to enact it.

[ChrisW]

I would think its a really small portion of the population that would "steal" a car just cause it was sitting there with keys in it. But a much much higher portion would break copyright law.

My guess, uneducated as it is, is that its seen as a victimless crime, pirating music.
.

I think that's right.
It doesn't help that entertainment tv always highlights the millionaire lifestyle of (some!) musicians.

[ChrisW]

I was referring to the first post of this thread: would you recommend a career etc etc different forms of professional music. Of course you wouldn't.

I would recommend a career in music if someone is passionate about being creative and wants to do it full time.
You're only 25 and you're more downtrodden than me.
You can't replace master musicians with chinese cheap labour. You keep seeing music as a job anyone can do.
It's not about digital delivery technology, it's about people making up a song from thin air and moving lots of other people with it. That has value, it will always have value. It hasn't been devalued like a horse drawn carriage.
And never wish unemployment on people ahead of you.... just so you can get a look in.

[Kurt]

"Master musicians" are not where the money is. Well, the need to make money commercially. Almost all government music funding in Australia goes to supporting classical music. The fact that Katy Perry has a career and that Simon Powell is the highest paid person on TV (to be fair he owns the show so I guess that is income from sales, not a wage) show that there is actually a lot of money being made in the music industry. Like all other industries in our age it is becoming more highly concentrated, fewer and fewer people are making more and more money out of it.

I would imagine that Ms. Perry's music is almost all made by one person on a computer, or a very small team at most. I would hazard a guess that no freelance session guys play on her records and she tours without a band.

Maybe you can't replace musicians with "cheap Chinese labour" but you can certainly go to Poland and record an orchestra much more cheaply than you can do it here, I know a death metal band from Sydney got a grant of $10k to do just that a year or two ago.

I was referring to the first post of this thread: would you recommend a career etc etc different forms of professional music. Of course you wouldn't.

I would recommend a career in music if someone is passionate about being creative and wants to do it full time.
You're only 25 and you're more downtrodden than me.
You can't replace master musicians with chinese cheap labour. You keep seeing music as a job anyone can do.
It's not about digital delivery technology, it's about people making up a song from thin air and moving lots of other people with it. That has value, it will always have value. It hasn't been devalued like a horse drawn carriage.
And never wish unemployment on people ahead of you.... just so you can get a look in.

[ChrisW]

Yes, I agree.
And it wont change without a lot of people making a noise about it.
All the money going to Katy perry and Simon Cowell is not good for diversity and health of music, nor is it good for the audience.

It's bad for us when newspapers sack all their pro photographers. And when investigative journalists with years of experience are replaced by amateur bloggers who never leave home.
Not everything new is good.

[rightintheface]

Mate, you're missing what I'm saying. I'm studying music despite people always telling me how there's no money in it, no jobs. In fact I moved away from my family down to Melbourne to continue studying and to be a part of Australia's music capital. And I'm loving it. I have no illusions of a rainbow, I'm doing it for the passion, like you've just said. Otherwise, why the hell would I do it??? I'm certainly not downtrodden at all, hence me saying how exciting the times are, because there are so many new avenues to discover. If I didn't think music had a value I'd go do an accounting degree. Not sure how you pulled that out of what I said. im in the most exciting music scene in the country and loving it. Doesn't mean I can't have my head screwed on and see what's happening at the same time.
Chewing up Chinese labour and master musicians is just mincing my words, the analogy was completely unrelated to musicians, merely to the social values of an end product: in the end the consumer will go for the cheapest. It was said in that context so it should be taken that, not twisted all up to mean something else.
And I'm certainly not wishing unemployment on anyone, just responding to the thread topic. The music economy has shifted hugely and that will mean studios will continue to shut. I wasnt attacking anyone on a personal front, it's just an observation that has already been made a dozen times in this thread.
I will continue to study and make music because that's what I have chosen to dedicate my life to, much like everyone here. Whether there is an "industry" to support it is irrelevant in the end because I will keep doing it. And like you said, of someone was asking for advice on a career they'd cop the same spiel from me: don't if you're not passionate. Hence how heated we're getting here... This is what we all love to do, and we'd all love to base our lives on it I'm sure. Times are changing though, so will the services that go with them. That's the whole point of what I'm saying.

[ChrisW]

If you're good you can be heard (thanks to the internet) without wishing for the end of the 'recording industry'.
Also seems odd to say you are talking about 'music' not the 'recording industry'. Again, you really mean major labels.

The 'end product' is music. A recording is one delivery medium.
The CD holds very little value to the young downloader. The product they are downloading though is your song, your performance and your recording. They aren't downloading 1's and 0's.
You're confusing the service, aka the delivery method, with the product they want to own, which is music.
People value music.

[rightintheface]

Jesus.
You're just taking whatever you want from what I've said. Wishing for the end of the recording industry? Do you think I'd be on this forum, pouring over threads and trying to learn what I can if I wanted it all to go up in smoke? Mate, you've got it so wrong.
And now you're saying people value music when a few posts up you say how people's need for free music is more important than supporting the artists who make it and download it or free. how is free analogous to valuable? There's 10 pages of thread here saying how music is no longer valued by society as it once was, and when I point this out it's wrong? Weird.

This thread is about the recording industry. The premise is that society no longer values it, the money is all dropping out of it into other places (Simon cowels pocket as has been said), therefore the services that were based on that money will struggle. This is the whole point of what I've said, in fact very one has pretty much said the same thing in different ways.
I've not said "music has no value" otherwise why would I be racking up a HECS debt learning more about it?

[Linear]

no offence, but ChrisW you're starting to sound like a defeated has-been.

you're getting a little too quick to shoot down anyone (young?) showing the slightest sign of optimism for the industry. sure it's not a great idea to get into music, but when has it ever been? come on, it's never been easy.

so what if a bunch of 25 year olds see some kind of future, and you don't? I think we need a little more enthusiasm in the game, and maybe it's time for a sign-off from those who think it's become too hard nowadays.

honestly. it's not that fcuking bad - however if you plan to go and try and make money 'the old way' - it ain't gonna work. in ANY part of the industry - artist, management, label, studio, producer etc. there are new ways to make money here, and it's not all at the top. unlike 1975, you don't need a million dollar studio, huge label backing, massive distribution network etc etc to make money in music.

after the napster debacle, everyone thought that was the end of it. then itunes came about, and now 2/3 of music is purchased through the itunes store. and the artist gets a hell of a lot more, and don't need to bother with labels stumping the cash for pressing and distribution. also now, it's not nearly as hard to get your music available to anywhere that has an itunes store. all you need to do is look back to the 50's and 60's to realise how restrictive the distribution was to artists.

so i don't want to discount your experience and 'wisdom' - but it's starting to sound a little out of place here in 2013.

[rightintheface]

honestly. it's not that fcuking bad - however if you plan to go and try and make money 'the old way' - it ain't gonna work. in ANY part of the industry - artist, management, label, studio, producer etc. there are new ways to make money here, and it's not all at the top. unlike 1975, you don't need a million dollar studio, huge label backing, massive distribution network etc etc to make money in music.

Chris V, this is exactly the point I was trying to make (!!) maybe I just waffled on the wrong way about it. The old way is going down the can, but there are new ways to make your art viable. Simples.

[The Tasmanian]

Who is saying it must be done the old way?
I never see Chris W state that? he is looking at the historical facts
Its simple - the art of music (and therefore the art of recording and all the great skills) are devalued.

Both Chris V and Mitch are not giving us any insight into how you think it can be valued
You both seem to have been beaten into accepting the thieving - with some fairytale belief that there is going to be some "new" exiting ways.

Music is being stolen - Art is being stolen
Are you guys now saying its OK? - lets just be positive about?
Accept the theft?
Just get on with it?

You don"t see the paralell Chris V -
Are you happy for all your clients to come through your studio and not pay the bill?
Because the last clients didn't either?
And you will find a exiting new way to exist - and except the theft?
Or are you OK with getting a cut on however many downloads MAY be paid for - no daily fee?.

You are surviving on artists that are being exploited, their work stolen.
You get paid for the job - they get their work stolen - and the work they put in is thousands of more hours to create that single product that is putting food on your table.

That's what is happening - not old ways vs new ways

Music is a valuable artform, in a recorded format so that it can be enjoyed in ones own environment -

Tell us your "exiting" new ways guys

[Chinagraf]

When I was 16 I used to go to sessions at a studio called Eaton's here in Melbourne. I used to ask Robin the head engineer for some advice about becoming an engineer and he said his best advice was not to do it and do something else. Even then, like 30 years ago people thought the industry wasn't like it was in the 'good old days'. i think it's like that for everyone, because your yardstick is always different to the generation before you and likewise the end results you seek seem to be different too. At the same time, the process changes for both good and bad. I love a lot of the things technology has done for the music and recording process. I do sometimes wonder about some of the finer points and arts of being a recordist getting lost as the one to one master/apprentice type relationship isn't so prevalent anymore and I don't have the greatest faith in audio type schools being a comparable replacement to that relationship. I don't think they can be in all fairness to them.
The scene will adapt and change, there seems to still be money being made. Maybe it's a case of more people making less bucks each as compared to less people making as much individually as in the past? I'd still be happy to make a crappy living some way in music. I'm sure a lot of younger crew would still choose that over working in an office cubicle. I help out some juniors here and there and I love the blind optimism and sense of everything is awesome that younger people in the business have. Sometimes when they aren't looking I try to steal it from them.

[Kurt]

At my level bands are happy if they sell any cds at all. None of them expect to make money, or even make their money back.

Most of the bands I deal with say stuff on stage like "Go check out the merch desk, buy something if you can, or download it, or whatever, just check us out!" For the vast majority of these guys music is a hobby they are passionate about.

My brother-in-law races a drag car, that's an expensive hobby. I know people who like to 4WD on weekends, that's an expensive hobby, I know people who skydive, that's an expensive hobby.

For most people, music is a pretty cheap hobby that sometimes makes beer money.

You don"t see the paralell Chris V -
Are you happy for all your clients to come through your studio and not pay the bill?

Tell us your "exiting" new ways guys

[The Tasmanian]

This is a forum for professionals in the industry - not a hobby forum.

There are people in life that do things with a lifetimes dedication.
Not beer money. -
I dont want to work with beer money artists.

[rick]

this is all well and good to discuss and pimple squeeze in our mirrors of each other
how it is getting so personal among the guys all on the same team f@#$s me though ..?


can i just say though .. lots of you are wrong
katie perry doesnt have all the money ..

Taylor swift has all the money.. !

and I wont hear a bad word about her
what is going on with her is just exactly what I want to see out of a young superstar .

Nothing to do with mother earth lil bands making great music nobody will ever hear and not getting paid at all .
or mp3s or whats wrong or right with the business.

but whatever is going on is straight into the eyes and ears and daily dances of my 5 year old daughter.
Taylor is the current highest grossing artist in the world today .. I have bought 3 cds my daughter knows every word to every song and lights up whenever she sees a taylor ( video ..poster.. whatever)

thats the dream act .. in this recording industry
to get back to the original post it always was.. it always will be
she is getting paid really well ..
sure she is like 1 of 10 in 3 billion ..
its the dream ..kids like dreams
i like dreams


Its nice when kids are dreaming of being somebody who actually exists(ie a musician not a cartoon character)
and as a Dad who has worked forever in this business for not too much $$ coming back
I can be pretty sure
one day all things being equal ...I can get my daughter to meet Taylor ..
thats a huge paycheck to me ..
I might not make enough money to be able to buy her a ticket to the concert
.. but i can get her in around the back for a look ..

Try that
.. deliver dreams to your kids if you can ..
big or small

music and dreams are ok
plenty of "recording enthusiasts" on this board chris t..

guys that make records fulltime are the tiny few .

[Linear]

I wanna preface this reply with the fact that I've met Chris T a few times, and respect what he has done and what he is doing.

This is a very interesting discussion and I really don't want it to descend into tit-for-tat internet arguments, for which we all know there are no winners.

This is a great board and at the end of the day we're all on the same team - and I think it's an important and pertinent discussion for all of us.

------

My beef here is with ChrisW and the patronising tone that's developing to the 'younger' guys who are just starting out. So they are more optimistic - good on them. Just because ChrisW hasn't gotten a call for a session in 5 years or whatever doesn't mean there isn't a need for session drummers. He's obviously fishing in the wrong river, or got the wrong bait - or not bothering to cast a line in the first place.

As you well know ChrisT - largely I'm not into profit-sharing with artists. You wanna record your stuff, you hire my space, so I don't know where the parallel between internet piracy and not paying a studio bill comes in. I have recorded plenty of stuff here that has gone on to make the studio bill 50,000 times over - and that isn't my concern either, good on them.

I am surviving on bands wanting to record and release their stuff. I'd say LARGE percentage of the stuff I do here doesn't ever make pirate bay. So I don't know why we keep beating this dead horse about devaluing music through theft etc etc. In many ways it's more the democratisation of music creation - there are MILLIONS of LP's and EP's being released every year, and most bands would GIVE their stuff away to get noticed. Bands put their stuff up on Unearthed HOPING that someone will download it for free.

It's like the irony of metallica - back when metal was truly and underground scene - bands thrived on people passing around cassette bootlegs of recordings. In many ways it MADE bands such as metallica, it was pre-internet publicity that could spread the word like wildfire. then, middle-aged and rich, they had the gall to take exception to napster - just a newer and more convenient form that helped make metallica a global band. i don't really see the difference.

---------

For those who think that internet piracy hinders artistic development - I would love to go back to whoever mentioned Game of Thrones, the most pirated series ever.

The shows creators have publicly stated that the downloads have HELPED make game of thrones a global phenomenon. HBO publicy state that illegal downloading is BAD however they have stated off-the-record that the downloading phenomenon has increased their subscriptions and boosted their bottom line for everything else such as merchandising and DVD sales.

Is this lost on anyone here? The most pirated show on TV - winning emmys, making lots of money, getting ever larger budgets for filming... is it really all that broken??

[Kurt]

You don't want to and you're not getting any work. I make my living doing it. Go figure.

This is a forum for professionals in the industry - not a hobby forum.

There are people in life that do things with a lifetimes dedication.
Not beer money. -
I dont want to work with beer money artists.