Inevitable

[ChrisW]

The locked thread was inevitable.
Just to say my right of reply was thus removed, and to add, I'm not happy that in a wide ranging and yes passionate debate, I seemed to be the one singled out for personal abuse by one other member.
A 'patronising has been' from someone who doesn't know me and doesn't know much about me obviously.
I don't patronise young people, or anyone. I disagreed with one 25 year old in the debate.
It's OK.... again, it's OK for me to disagree with a 25 year old...... and Linear. It's only the music industry, it's not war, or life and death. It's ok to have different views.
I don't think I resorted to denigrating the other posters in the process.

Now that I've got that off my chest. You can delete this post and this thread.

[The Tasmanian]

Funny - just about to post this on the other industry thread:

Hi gents
wow - the other thread on this subject could have been a continuous evolving topic - something we shared, delved into, got the shits over, problem solved, came up with good ideas, evolved etc - so much promise.

The last 24 hours was ugly, really ugly, and a few members here showed who they really are as people, and some others really surprised me.
It really made me think deeply about whether I should have input here, passionately give my valuable time, start threads for discussion, drop in daily etc etc.
Decided I've had enough. Time best spent working & kicking goals.

I also was extremely disappointed in the way ChrisW was treated, even by people again that I thought I respected. Nasty subtle digs at his age, his skills, calling him a "patronising has been" etc.
That was an ugly final crux for me. If people here are going to treat industry pro's with contempt,
then there is nothing to learn by being here. Nothing to add from me.

I will lurk once in a blue moon - but pointless putting my experiences into anything.
I'll sniff around the for sale section. Look at what the DIYers are doing.

Thanks for 5 good years to all the good people , I have met some really great people, set up amazingly good working relationships, made great friends all over the country, had lots of laughs.
Thank you - you know who you are!

I want to thank Rick - he's a fine gentleman that has put this forum up.
Onwards!

[Wiz]

I am a pretty straight up guy. Or at least I try to be.

If I said anything that offended anyone, for that I would apologise unreservedly. Which I already did.

But , I wanted to put it out there.

If I upset anyone, I am sorry.

cheers

Peter

[rick]

Look I locked it because the magical power of the Internet
Was making enemies between people I know to be great blokes

And THAT is what is wrong with this business
We have one of the most isolated career paths
Mentoring is a foreign world to most of us

Self preservation is an undercurrent .

What this clubhouse is for precisely I don't know
But when I left the record company all those years
Ago I have never felt more isolated
My work mates were bands that you give 100% to for a couple
Of weeks and then move on to the next band

I figured TRMF offers a haven for a bunch of people
Who live isolated lives in the same direction
A delta if you like ..

Some just watch
some say hello and make friends
Some just trade rice for fish ...

I hope if you see one of us in the water and you
Can help him out .. For no reward other then you might
Be or have been in the water one day yourself
That is exactly what you do .

I keep harping on that the for sale section is commission free
And I do that because I keep getting offers
To revamp the commerce on this site
People keep contacting me telling me I am nuts
To run add free commission free.


But I need to have a bunch of strangers talking about
Not too much that makes me feel connected more
Then I need to be beholding to commerce

So if your here and you can contribute please do
If the for sale section is what gets you here
Just know its the price I pay . For your gain


Can't stand bullshit conflict to make a point
It's the pits .. Hate it.

Use this as a yes well I am sorry too .. me too
me three .. thread as you all Get your perceived
right of replies off your chests reckon
I think that's fine

I hate locking things
make me feel
Like a dick
But come on it was out of line ..
Interestingly so
But still .

[ChrisW]

No Wiz.
I had no issue with anyone, despite quite differing and at times passionate views..... until someone made it personal, took a line I'd written out of context and wrongly attributed it as the reason why I am against downloading and piracy.
On page one, you posted an imagined view of where I was at - sitting atop a cliff top, gazing across the turquoise waters from my beautifully appointed studio. So I thought I would post where I actually was at. We were discussing the general malaise in the industry (perceived or not). We weren't discussing piracy or downloading on that page, and I didn't blame piracy for the fact I don't have a stunning studio overlooking the beach.
I've made all my own decisions and stand by them. They were the best decisions (right or wrong) I could make at the time.
Almost all the posts were respectful. Of course your own Wiz, and most others. Chris T apologised for his Murdoch comment.
On the last page of the locked thread I thought there had been some good points made about downloading, from both sides of the fence. I posted that I agreed with Kurt and Chris V's points, members I've disagreed with in the past. I was therefore shocked to awake this morning and see what had been written about me in my absence.

[Ben M]

I think we all know that everyone here on this forum loves music and is passionate about talking solutions and experiences....I think that's a given.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of heated/passionate discussion. It's actually far better than half hearted replies and I applaud everyone for getting into it and recognising that we have a global (value of music) crisis going on.

It would be good to reopen the thread so we can continue to trial some positive solutions whether they be far fetched or viable ways forward.

I have things to share and I'm sure many others do as well.

I'd hate to see people move away from this forum purely because things got a little out of hand (one time)...

Peace to all.

[Drumstruck]

That was perhaps the most interesting and passionate thread I've encountered here - lots of excellent sujective opinions and a lot of insight reading between the lines.

Whilst I don't agree with some of the comments, I'm sure many don't agree with some of mine - but at least we had some freedom of speech (how un-Australian).

I'm really sorry I missed my chance to p1ss someone off big time

[rightintheface]

The waters definitely muddied up at the end.

There were definitely some different points flying around, a lot spawning off my first comment. I would like to apologise to anyone here who took what I said as wishing unemployment on anyone. It's pretty issue to misconstrue what's written on the web, this definitely wasn't what I was getting at. That said, I know I voiced a pretty strong opinion so sorry if that wound anyone up.

I WON'T apologise for my age or status as a "non-professional" engineer/musician/artist/human being/whatever. I joined this forum to learn and participate where I can in a field that I love - I read 9 pages of the thread before saying what I thought. Had I known that there were stringent guidelines on age/employment status of members then I never would have joined up or certainly wouldn't have posted.

In the midst of all the heat I'd like to thank Rick: I really dug the post about Taylor, and I think it got lost in the mud.

Only up from here

[Sammas]

Inevitable.

Its funny. I read a lot of comments in that thread, and I did feel like a lot of blaming was occurring. I think the situation is so complex that there isn't an answer to the problem...

...but speaking of inevitability, surely the recording industry itself must take a huge amount of the blame? That initial moment when audio was first digitised, set in stone the inevitability that music distribution was always going to transcend a physical, tangible format at some point in time. In hindsight, I can't see how that ever was not going to happen.

But what did the recording industry do?? Rolled in cash in two decades of decadence... then thought for a moment 'shit, we might have a problem here, Gary!'

'f@#$ it Barry, just sue the fuckers, that will stop them'...

...'it didn't work, Gary. It's made people angry'.

'Don't worry Barry, I just sold the industry for 99c a song'.

The fate of this industry was sold before most Gen-Yer's on this forum were even remotely a part of it. Keep in mind, this is as much a technological occurrence as it is a case of theft. Other industries like the print industry are radically shrinking because in a decade period we went from mothers shouting "get off the bloody internet, I want to use the phone!" to having everything in a digital device in our pocket. The music industry did nothing until it was bent over and crying for mercy... where it then sold out for pennies on the dollar.

How do you fix that? How can you fix that? You can blame theft... but remove theft and what are you left with? The industry has gone beyond selling our future for 99c... it now lets the world stream as much music for free... and legally... People don't even have to steal it anymore. The industry is giving it away! This is the industry that Gen-Yer's walked into but didn't necessarily have any part in creating.

Yes. It was inevitable that Gen-Yer's on this forum were going to get a little angsty in the face of older generations saying "those damn kids!", when you really didn't do much to help the situation other than complain about it...

Yes. It was inevitable that Gen-Yer's on this forum were going to saying "we make the best of the situation"... because we do. What do you expect us to do? I don't have the answers. Do you? I can appreciate the good intentions of people like Chris T and Chris W... but some of us are thinking that you are probably better off kicking back with a beer and thinking "f@#$ i was lucky"... simply because for some of us... we are still aiming to make our way through 2 or 3 decades of this shit fight, uphill battle of a bad career choice, simply because its what drives us to get out of bed in the morning.

Unspeakable things have happened to music in the last decade and a half. Until there are actually answers, there are probably only going to be arguments.

[Drumstruck]

Again, this reminds me of Heller:

Q - "But what if everyone thought like that?"

A - "Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different"

[Sammas]

Again, this reminds me of Heller:

Q - "But what if everyone thought like that?"

A - "Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different"

I'm confused. Which group are you lumping me in, Ian?

Is it the one that said "this is all messed up, but lets persist and try and make it work."
Or was it the group that said "this is all messed up... Time to walk away!"

[Manning]

Again, this reminds me of Heller:

Q - "But what if everyone thought like that?"

A - "Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different"

I'm going to dig Catch 22 out and read it again, starting tonight.

[Lee]

"pointless putting my experiences into"

I disagree it's NOT pointless as I greatly value your contributions here and it would be really shit if you didn't respond to any of my posts anymore. I really hope that after everything has cooled off you will still post here as I have learnt an unquantifable amount off you over the last few years and would like to continue doing so, which is why I'm selfishly requesting that you keep on posting.

[Drumstruck]

Again, this reminds me of Heller:

Q - "But what if everyone thought like that?"

A - "Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different"

I'm confused. Which group are you lumping me in, Ian?

Is it the one that said "this is all messed up, but lets persist and try and make it work."
Or was it the group that said "this is all messed up... Time to walk away!"

Nathan, you fit into a much more positive group - where some would say:

"It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

I think you'd say:

"No, it's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees"

dontcha love Heller

[Hookemeister]

Go make music ( thats everybody ) .

Rick O'Neil

Well out of everything I read on that thread, the last entry made the most sense.

Here's my take on the industry of which I've been a part of since the mid 60's....

The first very Important thing to remember: The recording industry, (excluding voiceover, FX and foley recording), can not exist exist without musicians.

The second very Important thing to remember: Musicians can exist without the recording industry.

Now once you accept those 2 statements and realise that musicans are the lifeblood of the recording industry then you're on your way to reviving the industry.

We need to be getting musos out of their solo existence in their bedroom studio and out playing and performing with other musos in front of an audience.

Once you have a band rehearsing and playing together then the need for a real studio becomes relevant.

At he moment we have musos sitting home being creative on their own, not making much money from performing and having plenty of time to hone their skills in the computer recording enviroment.

We need to encourage bands, support them in any way we can and help them to get work so they can then spend their money recording in a real studio.

If musicians can't afford to get into a studio then they'll never experience what it's like and let me tell you the first time I went into a studio I was hooked for life... pardon the pun.

When I was 15 there was a studio run by a Dave Gibson called Studio 66 in Surrey Hills. In the control room there were 2 mono e tape machines that were about the size of 2 large washing machines, a mixer with 8 knobs and some switches, a power amp and a speaker. That was the first studio I'd ever seen.... I was addicted.

When the studio wasn't hired out the owner would let bands come in and rehearse, then set up a few mics and record them. The bands would eventually come back and book a session.

Fast forward 10 years, mid 70's, I'm in San Francisco with muso mate who'd just written a rock opera that we were trying to peddle. So we're standing in a queue in a deli talking about music and the guy behind us ask's if we're muso's and we're where from. We give him the whole story ans he tells us he works at a studio and would we be interested in doing some recording.... for free. Of course we jumped at the opportunity and asked him where he worked... Wally Heiders... the best studio in San Francisco in the 70's. We got to spend 3 nights there recording from midnight to dawn for nothing... he was an assistant engineer and wanted to get as much experience as he could, and Heiders had a policy that engineers could use the studio in down time for their own projects.

My point is... if more studios went out and pulled bands in during downtime and introduced them to the studio enviroment, there's a good chance they may at some stage book some time or recommend the studio to someone else.

[Kurt]

My little niche in the music industry has been the vast majority of my income for about the last 10 years. I believe this qualifies me as a "professional"

This is a forum for professionals in the industry - not a hobby forum.

There are people in life that do things with a lifetimes dedication.
Not beer money. -
I dont want to work with beer money artists.

I work with "beer money artists"; implying my stake in the industry, from which I drive my entire income, is less valuable or less my profession than somebody else's is, to paraphrase, F@#$ing arrogance. Suggesting that I am not passionate about what I do, without having met me or ever spoken to me was impolite at best.

I did not intend my last post to be a personal attack but I can easily see now, with hindsight and a cooler head, how it could be read as such. I believe most of what I had to say in that thread was reasonable and I am sorry if some of my comments caused offence.

*professional: a person who is engaged in a certain activity or occupation for gain or compensation as a means of livelihood, such as a permanent career

[Sammas]

"pointless putting my experiences into"

I disagree it's NOT pointless as I greatly value your contributions here and it would be really shit if you didn't respond to any of my posts anymore. I really hope that after everything has cooled off you will still post here as I have learnt an unquantifable amount off you over the last few years and would like to continue doing so, which is why I'm selfishly requesting that you keep on posting.

Ditto with that.

[Sammas]

Again, this reminds me of Heller:

Q - "But what if everyone thought like that?"

A - "Then I'd be a damn fool to think any different"

I'm confused. Which group are you lumping me in, Ian?

Is it the one that said "this is all messed up, but lets persist and try and make it work."
Or was it the group that said "this is all messed up... Time to walk away!"

Nathan, you fit into a much more positive group - where some would say:

"It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"

I think you'd say:

"No, it's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees"

dontcha love Heller

Hahaha, well shucks. Now I don't know if that means I have good intentions... or perhaps am just a little insaner than most.

You have a lovely weekend, Ian.

[Drumstruck]

professional vs amateur - the argument about the merits of one or the other has gone on for ages and in many disciplines. e.g. Rugby League vs Rugby Union (until recently when union went pro), 70 years ago the same thing in cricket

so what that professional basically means you get paid for what you do
and so what that amateur basically means you don't (though you may get gratuities, fringe benefits and prizes)

Neither has any deity given right to ownership of the cause / neither has more or less dedication, talent or passion

I'm an amateur in audio, but a professional in related fields - I hope that doesn't mean I have to hand in my t/rock membership badge

and in my amateur opinion everyone's input has merit here

and thankyou Nathan (I've run out of smilies)

[Ausrock]

Just deleted what I was going to say...........it would have p#ssed off some younger people.

Being a "professional" shouldn't be regarded as meaning that you are talented or good at what you do, just as being an "amateur" shouldn't imply that one isn't necessarily as talented as a "professional".........there are a damned sight more than 50 shades of grey in that discussion.

One possible fact is that the older, more experienced "industry guys" have had to adapt to and employ the newer (digital) technologies, whereas they younger generations have not known or experienced to any significant degree, the "joy of" tape, real consoles and real outboard gear. The fact that the "necessaries" to record music have been dumbed down to "in the box" equipment has also inadvertently, devalued the recording process and everything associated with it.

[Chris H]

I have been following these discussions with great interest and was a bit disappointed at the way things went a bit nasty. There is just so much room for false assumptions screwing up forum type conversations.
On the big brush stroke front, I think many people are feeling the life pressures that are inevitable when change forces on us lifestyle decisions that have a major impact on the way we live and the way we see our selvs. I have been reading similar discussions on the PRW forum. I think its a very complex issue that is not confined to the recording industry. Even farmers are being screwed by the corporate buying power of supermarkets, the importing of foods and the lowering of protection here but other countries maintaining tarrifs etc etc.They need to work longer hours for less money...... It seems in some ways that there is a fair bit of instability in the lifestyles of Australia and the USA.
I am really interested in Ricks reasons for this Forum and support the "ethos" 100 percent.
It would be great to see people cut each other a bit of slack from whatever their perspective or position.
I saw the locked thread as an opportunity to explore some frustrations and pursue a course to try to put it all in some perspective. That process is ultimately a way to ensure a healthy outcome as occupations and lives are redefined. It is bound up in each persons distinctly individual experience but also is a shared one in the audio side of things we have in common.
I hope Chris T feels free to return after a bit of a rest from here. I think it would be a great loss for the forum if he were not to return.

[walding]

I've done 7 foh gigs in 10 days, a demo recording for a future client (free) and recorded vocals on a track for another client (paid).

I don't make a lot of money as I choose to be in the low/mid part of the industry as I find it less stressful and I can be more creative.

My point is, I'm extremely lucky and one could say blessed to have the life I do, I work for myself I can be creative and I have lots of time...

The good old days are now, and they always will be, the industry is always changing (remember when drum machine were going to put drummers out of work, or the ad campaigns re cassette tapes killing music lol) the trick is to change with it, adapt and most importantly, ENJOY IT for we are fortunate to be able to do what we do..

[Futureman]

I was following the other thread... & Let me get this right?

An individual is throwing in the towel with this forum because there was a disagreement and things got a little tense?

Imagine if the same happened on Gearslutz? The damned place would be empty.. everyone is bickering and arguing over the smallest of details round those parts.

A thread (Regarding 'What is happening to the Industry') like that wouldn't last 1 page before it would degenerate into name calling / abuse and gets locked.

The fact that it lasted 10 pages is great... It stayed civil for a while right? Round of applause.

Now.. back to fixing old synths.

[The Tasmanian]

Use by date - Sun Aug 18th.
Edited 1,000,000 times until you can read the sound of one hand clapping.

[Sammas]

Good for you, Chris.

Some of the best lecturers I had while studying composition at university were the ones that stood incredibly left of center, doing things their own way, while oozing creativity, enthusiasm and sincerity. I don't doubt you will inspire a lot of future artists.

I wish you all the best!

[The Tasmanian]

Thanks Nath -
you gotta follow your heart eh?
life aint a job! - its living!

[Sammas]

Thanks Nath -
you gotta follow your heart eh?
life aint a job! - its living!

Absolutely!

Please do keep us posted on your work from time to time if you get a chance.
I know I'm not the only one here that loves reading about it!

[mylesgm]

I've got to say that standing where I am at the moment in Swaziland these two threads have been pretty bizarre. I mean I follow the discussion and I see different viewpoints which I've considered or shared or rejected but a lot of it feels pretty disconnected from much of the world.

We are very privileged in Australia in ways most of us will never really see and where I'm sitting right now I'm a little freaked out about returning to those privileges because most of us see those privileges as rights. Those "rights" were fought over for decades and regardless of your political view point most of us just take them for granted now. Copyright? Swaziland has no copyright. Royalties? nope. Good pay for good work? only for a very select few. And the list goes on.

I'm not saying we should all just suck it up because others in the world have it worse than us but we should be saying we've got it pretty good.

I love this forum. A few months back I said I needed a couple of bits of gear and three chaps immediately threw their hats in the ring and sent stuff to my parents at little to no cost for what they were sending that made a big difference over here. A few years back I hooked up with ChrisT and worked on the MONA tunnel. Who knows how much gear I've bought and sold, lessons I've learnt, brains I've picked. We should be focusing on this and giving the benefit of the doubt seeing as the internet is one of the great confusers when it comes to expression.

Lastly I think we all have axes to grind, wheels to spin and cars to chase that are all different to each other and I wouldn't really have it any other way. Let's find the best ways to support each other in those pursuits.

[Hybrid88]

^ +1 Myles, we must all learn to agree to disagree without making it snide and demeaning. Something this place is (on the whole) not known for, but the internet as a form of communication certainly is.

Well, interesting developments around here.

Just gotta say while I know this is predominantly a forum for seasoned professionals (that I truly respect), I in fact am only a 25 year old hobbyist simply here to learn and to share a love of all things recorded music, and have found this place to be an invaluable resource of interesting information. So it's not just the pros that get benefit out of this site.

Also I understand viewpoints change and trends shift with different generations, but as a young guy myself, to single out the gen Y'ers as the problem is a little unfair because a *lot* has changed in the art itself over time. Once upon a time producing music was an uncommon skill requiring a room full of very expensive and highly specialised equipment, now anyone can do it on their laptop relatively simply and effectively.

Simply put we are now in an age where an electronic music artist can make a very well selling track with pirated softsynths and not only get away with it but profit from it. ...but I actually don't care, and this is where 99% of you will disagree with me, because to me the true value of music is and never has been primarily monetary, it is the ability to express creative freedom and provide nourishment for the soul. *That* should always be the main focus.

Now sure, piracy isn't great I do agree there, but how many of us can truly say we got $500 worth of value out of that fancy looking plugin compressor? This is where I am glad the cost has come down, as it is proven that people who pirate, are more than happy to buy something as long as the price is reasonable for what they are getting.

For a closing thought :- maybe the problem is not so much with our changing industry, or the dollar value of an mp3, but with the over-commercialisation of the industry itself.

That's the thing about capitalism, it is good to a point, but it always seems to end up smelling of greed and giving skewed ideas of what is important in life.

To expand on Myles' point above on how lucky we are, how many of us have many, many things we really don't need yet still complain we don't earn enough?

[Ausrock]

ChrisT,

There's numerous people here who don't work in the industry as such but who have a passion for creativity and music, just because you've found a new path to follow doesn't mean you can't continue to contribute here.

As an aside............ creativity, at it's core is a very personal thing.........the question is whether a person wants or needs to prostitute that talent or treasure it as a personal pleasure .