Spaced Pair Stereo Recording

[jefferson]

Hi all,
Looking for a bit of experience and advice with stereo recording?
For those that have attempted the fine art with a pair of Omni condenser's, Other than finding a great sounding acoustic, what has been your determining factor(s) for mic height and consequent vertical (pointing) angle?
I will be attempting to create a high definition stereo recording over the next couple of months and am keen to digest as many 'war stories' and past learnings (i.e. help) I can get?
Thanks in advance for all and any stories?

Regards

Jefferson

[Milo]

What and where are you recording? Height and distance are determined both by the type and number of performers, the style of music, and a big factor is the room

Milo

[jefferson]

Hi Milo,
Haven't found the exact acoustic space yet - am listening to three different spaces this weekend?
The line up is simply a double bass and a jazz guitar , 2 vocals and and a very cool, non standard (light jazz), smooth music that reeks high definition?
Not wanting an overally reverberant room but mostly interested in early reflection (Haas effect) and sonic lushness?
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated?
Regards
Jefferson

[Chris H]

A few thoughts.
Re haas effect:
maybe it's worth having a look at using a dummy head mic setup for a good binaural recording.
Re lushness:
The room will be a big factor and the placing of the stereo pair in the room. As stav said in one of his articles years ago, wear a good pair of enclosed headphones and move the mic around to achieve a good balance between the direct sound and the room sound, reflections. The rooms reverb characteristics are critical to the end result. Old churches can be great spaces for these recordings with a combo of wood and stone and high ceilings. I have made improvised dampening panels by draping material over two boom stands to dampen the reverb a bit around the performance space if needed.
Great monitoring in a seperate room is also essential along with taking time to set it all up so the recording sounds as close to the end product as you can get it.
I would have a back up mic set of spot mics to compliment the stereo pair and to have the option of using these other mics to focus any given instrument in the stereo feild, especialy if you are after lushness. Also they are handy if you end up with a bit too much room sound in the recording. Obviously in the mix, the spot mics, if needed are bought up under the stereo pair and placed in the same place as the instrument in the stereo image.

It's also worth saying that some mics for reasons unknown to me are far better than most at what I think is referred to as reach, in that they seem to be able to focus on the depth of the sound stage and not over emphasising those instruments closer to them.
The more you can experiment the better and this is one area where you really do learn on the job, as in the more you do it the better you get at it. With this in mind its a great option to book the space twice so you can do a second recording session using the first as a reference to make adjustments. I have done this a few times as a learning experience and also as it is performance based recording it gives the added bonus of a bit of room to relax and have the option of choosing the performance the players feel has the best mojo.

[jasound]

Hi Jeffereson,
I would generally start at about 3 - 3.5 metres up and back from a small sound source like the one you'll have. Angle with omnis isn't as important as cardioids. Again it all depends on the acoustic of the space, ie the more reverberant it is the closer you will have to go and vice versa.
Vocals are a tricky thing with stereo micing, performers tend to move and if they're to close to the stereo pair you'll
get movement in the stereo image, which can take you "out" of the story telling.
I'd put spot mics on all sources just incase the ensemble isn't balancing itself.

[Milo]

Yes, mate, I was also going to add that spot mics should be on everything for backup purposes.
If its a good-sounding room, you could try an MS setup for the main pair, where you probably wouldn't have the stereo image shift compare to a spaced pair if they're moving around.

Do you know what choice of mics are available?

Milo

[Ben M]

Yes +1 for additional spot mics.
If you try the MS setup..try an omni/figure 8 configuration. Could be better for your scenario than a cardioid/figure 8 config.
The room and placement will be key so plan how you want the stereo image to pan out, add a smidge of the spot mic's just supporting and complimenting the stereo mic setup and placement of musicians.

Best of luck!

[jefferson]

Thanks Chris, Jason, Milo and Ben,
All useful and informed info which is greatly appreciated.
I was originally thinking of placing the mic's at an average standing height of say 1.5 meters (based on listening for 'the flame' - aka Stav) but maybe I may take a ladder and start at the 3 to 3.5 Meter height ( based on the suggested experience) .
I will definitely be spot miking (as suggested) but this of course adds some challenges with achieving high definition ( min 96 kHz and more pristine pre's)?
I was wondering how you guys have approached eliminating 'amp noise' from this kind of recording?
For the stereo pair, I was hoping to get a hold of either neuman, dpa, scheops Omni condenser's but have not been able to source anything at this point? If anybody has any knowledge of where I may be able to source these (or equivalent / better - if such a beast exists) please let know?
Thanks again for all your assistance.
Kind regards
Jefferson

[jasound]

Coda audio hire cardioid Schoeps, not sure about omnis.
Omni centre MS will give a great low end.

[AlCraig]

Jefferson,
I have the following pairs of mics if you'd like to hire any of them:
Neuman U87
Neuman KM84
Neuman KM88
Neuman SM69
B&K 4011
Rode Classics
AT 4050

PM me.
Al Craig

[jefferson]

Thanks Jason and Al.
I'll contact both shortly?
Hey Al, is the sm69 a stereo mike in one?
Regards

Jefferson

[AlCraig]

Yes, the 69 is basically a double headed 87 in the one housing. One capsule rotates in relation to the other so you can pre-set your "width".
In your case, and if you have at least 8 tracks to play with, I'd put the SM69 dead center in double figure 8 mode (Blumien method), then another pair way out wide (maybe the B&K) with another coincident pair right there with the B&Ks but pointing back into the room (maybe the KM84) with finally a big wide spaced pair of omni's (87s or 4050s) towards the rear of the room.
That way, when you get to mix down, you have choices.
Is there a live audience involved?
If not, and you have a wide open floor, you might even try a stereo boundary mic on the floor (this gets rid of one of the early reflections that smears the source).
Good luck.

ta
Al Craig

[Barney Loveland]

Time. Not the band, yours. Of the limited recordings i've done like this the ones where I had more time to get it right in set up they worked out better at mixdown.

[jefferson]

Hi Al, Barney and Chris,

Wow Al, you certainly love keeping options open? Some great ideas there. I'll pm you to discuss possible hire soon.

I will have to more seriously consider the risks if I try and stay minimalist (stereo pair + spots) versus the possibilities of multiple stereo setups?

Barney, yep I have been right down your thinking when it comes to not being under the clock for prep?
As a matter of fact, I have taken the approach of having no clock for anybody?
These guys are real pro muso's and earn their total living and way around the world 100% with their music? I am hoping to do as much as I can for them as reasonably as possible?

Chris, your initial thoughts on binaural? I recently bought a chesky binaural series recording where they used the Neumann head and it does sounds unbelievable with headphones (literally 3D) which was my understanding of the purpose of binaural? Was that what you were thinking? p.s. I am listening to the album (Amber Rubarth) on my home stereo while typing this conversation, and it does not appear to exhibit the same sonic quality as normal high definition recordings ( but, of course, that is not the case when listening to it through headphones)?

Love these totally interesting conversations - thanks again all !!!!

Kind regards
Jefferson

[Chris H]

Chesky..... I had one of their recordings demonstrating blumlein. I mentioned the dummy head only as an option if you wanted to recreate the "purist stereo listeners perspective" type of thing. I don't use the technique myself, though have tried it along with most other options including the Calrec soundfeild and setting up a B format encoder in logic. In the end I prefer a single stereo pair of cardoid mics, usually ORTF and two omni mics one left and the other right of the centered stereo pair. Sometimes instead of the ORTF i use M/S + the omnis either side. Most of this for me has been with un amplified music though once a year I do a school Jazz concert with a stereo pair and spot mics which has been great for experimenting with different setups. I never work with more than one stereo pair though in the final mix. Setting up different stereo pairs for experimentation, hearing how they compare is not a bad idea, though it might not inspire confidence from the musos. I think the adage "less is better really applies to hi def stereo recording, getting as best you can from the stereo pair and using the spots only where needed.

[Drumstruck]

If your venue is larger..... Decca Tree baby

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/991 ... urtext.pdf

[jefferson]

Thanks Chris and drum struck.
I am certainly on the same page with less is best.
I am fairly confident I will be using your basic concept mic setup Chris? I think I'll end up experimenting with the middle combo as exampled by everybodies suggestions (i.e. ortf, Ms etc)
Chris (or anybody), one more question if I'm not crossing the line, what has been your most successful pre's with your stereo recordings (particularly with regards to noise)?

Thanks again for all the help!!

Jefferson

[Chris H]

For mic pre's I always use my Amek 9098 dual mic pre for the stereo pair and Optro 7500 for spot mics and the side omni pair.