Tyre kickers

[Mark Bassett]

We used to get folks call up Turtlerock and ask Rick whether he'll master a track for free, in a competitive scenario where other mastering engineers were doing the same, with the job (album) going to the mastering engineer that the band / label like the most. Rick never went for this, but assured them that all the work done at Turtlerock was 100% guaranteed, and if the client wasn't happy with the output, we'd work that out, usually in my experience at no cost until the client was happy. Some clients decided to book the session and some didn't. Some came back to us after having their record mastered by the winner of such a competition, unhappy with the results.

I'm wondering if tyre kickers are common in other audio fields.

Working as an acoustician, this type of character was common. Most common were the folks who emailed me asking a litany of questions regarding their room, essentially they were asking for me to share my knowledge and expertise, for nothing, over email, with zero intention of booking my services.

Then there's the type that wants to do 99% of the job they think I would do in advance, then send me the details and cut the whole time and cost into a quarter. You don't turn up to the Dr having already taken your blood pressure, biopsy in hand, and give it to the Dr with instructions that she analyse what you've collected now do you? I'm far from a Dr, but you get the point.

I understand that some people have been screwed over at some time by an ‘acoustician’ who charges them $800 to turn up, and does little else, I get it, but there's a fine line between providing helpful, professional advice to someone who is genuinely interested in what you do / can do (gauging your suitability for the project) and essentially performing the analysis and treatment of their room by proxy for the sum total of $0.

My approach to my services, like Rick's were and still are, is to do what is needed to make the client happy. I provide contact details of clients I've worked with in the past in the early tyre kicking stages (if requested), and specifically describe what I will be doing and what processes are involved and of course the cost of my services. I specifically state that this fee does not include the treatment itself or its installation.

It took me a long time to work out that many folks want me to provide them with specific advice on their space in order to confirm to them that they are doing the right thing. I have no issue with this, but this process isn't free.

Do folks who repair amps get people calling them up saying their amp is dead, but they’ve tried replacing (insert component name) but that didn’t work? “What (insert name of component) would you try?” they may ask. The tech may reply “well I’d really need to get it on the bench and have a look / test the (insert electronics terms).” The tyre kicker would then say “I’ve opened it up and here’s 8 photos of the amp. I’ve also put a multimeter on the (insert component name) and here’s the readings, what do you think?”. The tech might finally reply “Mate, I really need to get it in front of me to asses it and give you an idea of what the issue is and what it’ll cost to repair, can you bring it into the shop?” This is the point where the person usually stops writing emails.

Maybe tyre kicker is the wrong term here, not sure.

Has anyone else had such experiences in audio land?

[Drumstruck]

A few.....

edited into the void.....

[Sammas]

I think they are common in all aspects of life, particularly in this day and age when information can be so readily available. I don't doubt that every doctor has a story about parting heaven and earth to provide an 'emergency' consultation... only for the patient not to show up. Likewise - I don't doubt there is an abundance of patients that arrive with attempted self-diagnoses based on a google search of their symptoms.

Tyre kicker probably is the right word, but I do think it can be applied in certain degrees from both directions depending on perspective. I guess that is what makes building relationships with clients so important.

[Wiz]

I just got a new puppy... the dog trainer and I are swapping time for time, me teaching her guitar, she teaching me to teach the dog... the dog isn't teaching anyone.

We were discussing this just yesterday... she gets it all the time.. people ringing and asking for advice and taking up hours of her time each week.

I get it constantly with my little shallow end of the gene pool studio.

Also, people tend to treat me like shit when I don't charge them, not turning up, turning up hours late.. etc


Its a frustrating trait, I can see it souring the dog trainers view, and she is maybe 22 and just started her own business and really doing a great job.....

[lonearranger]

Hi Mark,

Perhaps you just need to have a way for people to request an email/skype consultation with you, which involves them making a payment upfront - this would mean you are compensated for your time and the client gets the benefit of your expertise. Would think you could setup a paypal product to handle this and add this easily to your site. For cold emails you just have a canned reply telling how to engage you and make an upfront payment.

And maybe some blurb on the process of designing/building a studio that covers the logical points for your involvement, pros/cons of you attending, getting involved at the start of the project etc, and even some indicative costings and examples of how people can reduce costs and frustration involving you earlier.

Suspect a few of the other tyre kicker stories relayed in this thread could be mitigated by collecting some payment upfront.

Cheers

[Chinagraf]

Hi Mark, can you please tune my room, I have no money but I will tell lot's of people about it if it sounds good, the exposure will be great. You can put up some stickers and leave a business card or two lying around as well.

Funny, I just totally replumbed a house we own and the plumber wasn't interested in doing it for the exposure.

[Sammas]

Hi Mark, can you please tune my room? You will be doing the first one for free, and if it sounds good I will pay for you to tune the rest.

[wez]

Hi Mark, I just had someone tune my room... it sounds ok but I'm not sure if it's as good as it could be.

Could I get you to have a go at it? If it's better than the other guy's work, I'll use (and pay for) yours.

(Oh but his name will be on the credits because a) the artwork's already done, b) he's a nice guy and we didn't want to upset him, and c) well he's a pretty big name, and you know, it looks better than yours. Don't take it personally though.)


Would be funny if I had that happen to me just the once. More than once it starts getting old.

[rob]

Sheesh....
I get it regularly. Probably every day. Probably spend up to an hour a day giving free advice.

I helped someone fix their SSL over the phone this morning
I've just finished sending an email to someone who wants advice on building a routing unit. He has offered to pay but at what point in the dialog should I start the clock running.
later this evening I need to find and scan some technical documents for a guy Iceland.

I have folks wanting their guitar amps repaired but want to supply all the parts.

I get phone calls at 7pm on a Saturday night from someone who wants to shoot the breeze about some equipment wet dream they've had.

I consider all this as par for the course.

[Mark Bassett]

Hilarious, folks, keep em coming.

Acoustician isn't may day job and as busy as I was I had the luxury of being to walk away from it when I moved to the desert. Now that I'm back in Aus and getting bites again from folks who know that's something I do, it's interesting coming from a position where I'm not obligated to chase and make concessions, if it's too much hassle it's not an issue - so I really have nothing to complain about. For for those cats who need to deal with this stuff as part and parcel of the job, guys I feel for you. Just putting the feelers out to see how common it is.

[Kurt]

I got a phone call a few days ago from someone who used to be in a band I did a demo for. He's in a new band and they're asking "a few guys who do recording stuff" to record one song, whoever does it best gets to record their album.

My guess is that a few guys will each record a different song, they'll get an EP for free...

I said no.

[The Tasmanian]

This industry is nothin!
Try the film industry - its 100% run on tyre kiking.
oh - i forgot - there is no film industry anymore.... just a shell....with "runners"

It really feels nice to say no sometimes....
you can smell the kickers too - even over the phone..

[dave01.cooper]

Amen Chris about the film industry, I got approached once to quote on a short that was taking place over a wknd. Cool I thought, small setup with a couple of lavs & a boom, should be easy.

Not cool - the shoot went for 48hrs straight with no pay and I had to fit the bill for the hire costs as all the money was going to color grading.

Rob - I think I might be guilty for picking your brain over the phone at least once... sorry for that!

[rob]

don't be sorry Dave. I do see it as a part of the reality of what I do.

I am in the service industry and providing service is the fundamental starting point and it has nothing to do with electronics or fixing stuff

[gigpiglet]

and provide a great service you do!!!
most of the time "above and beyond" on the phone etc
but there are some pretty tasty invoices scattered in there as well...
;-)

[rob]

exactly. when I'm charging i'm not cheap. but before i'm charging there is plenty of room for discussion so everyone enters the job on the same page

[Analogaudioguy]

The "I'm not technical, but it shouldnt take more than an hour for you to repair" enquiry.

[TAFKAT]

The old saying of "if I had a dollar " comes to mind.

Yeh, I get it all the time from guys who haven't bought a system off me for what ever reason, usually because they have gleaned the perfect spec/loundry list from a forum, etc, and/or a local shop or friend has done it cheaper believing that all PC's are created equal when it comes to DAW work as long as they have similar specs.

Often I get the " I have copied your system specs ( quite entertaining when I don't give specific details) but I can't seem to get the performance I need out of it ", which then is followed by an attempt at getting me to diagnose and fix the issue, divulge system components details, settings, tweaks, etc.

I also get the after the fact , fact finding mission - I bought brand X interface from ( fill in blank ) and the tech sales guy who is very knowledgeable about all this music computer stuff sold it to me saying its perfect for my requirements, but it isn't performing as expected, what do you think ?

I have had some classic "crickets' moments when I have actually told them what I thought of their product purchase for their respective working requirements ..lol

I will remain polite and at times have even solved issues for some of the callers in the chance that being the good guy will hold me in good stead for a future purchase , but in the end it comes down to - How Much Is Your Time Worth ?