All things headphone

[scott]

I have a pair of Sennheiser 650s and Beyer Dynamic Dt770 which are both great. Had some expensive Audio Technicas that fell apart in short order. I'm looking for about 4 pairs so nothing too expensive I guess. Has anybody got any of those total extreme isolation headphones? Do drummers like them? Any others I should look at? What headphone distribution systems are everybody using too, I've been making do with the a deadringer and that will probably have to do for a while unfortunately.

[TimS]

I have a pair of Sennheiser 650s and Beyer Dynamic Dt770 which are both great. Had some expensive Audio Technicas that fell apart in short order. I'm looking for about 4 pairs so nothing too expensive I guess. Has anybody got any of those total extreme isolation headphones? Do drummers like them? Any others I should look at? What headphone distribution systems are everybody using too, I've been making do with the a deadringer and that will probably
have to do for a while unfortunately.

Is Be@i$g&r* that bad just for a headphone mix? - I wouldn't think so..
Unless you had clients complaining about the headphone mix/sound, why change? Is only additonal cost (to you!)
Just my 2c worth..
T..

[OzDrum]

Yes the be!@#$%^& can make a huge difference to the headphone mix - we previously thought it was ok - until we changed!!. We have recently removed the crap from our studio and added an old Yamaha power amplifier with a couple of 4-way headphone split boxes we made up with resisters/caps in them. It's amazing the difference (night and day!) no distortion and you get your stereo spread back!

We have a few pairs of the DT770's as well as recently added a set of the Extreme Isolation Headphones which have only been used on 2 sessions but both drummers have been very happy - also good when you are wanting to move a mic with headphones on in front of a quadbox etc!! Not the best sounding headphones but the isolation definately makes a difference for a drummer and more useable than the 770's for drums but I still use the 770's for vocals!

We've been selling a few of these Audio Technica headphones and were impressed with their sound quality for a cheaper alternative to the Beyers : http://www.ausband.com.au/shop/index.ph ... ductId=358

[Text_Edifice]

Maybe try

Sony V6's $99US - apparently the same as the 7506's without the gold plated jacks, can't verify this but they sound totally reasonable.

Soundelux HD660 ('modeled' after the dt770's) $50US - one of my work colleagues has a pair of these and they're totally decent, good isolation (like the beyer's) and the sound is fine for tracking.

Equation Audio? prices range but are around 100 -200 Aus dependent on model - haven't heard these myself but the RP-21 has generated a couple of glowing reviews as a really nice sounding closed headphone.

Haven't used the extreme isolation headphones but from memory they're dirt cheap so for something a drummer is probably going to sit on they'd probably be fine.

[Text_Edifice]

oh quick question for anyone using headphones in a mobile rig - have an Mbox 2 for mobile recordings with a laptop and a pair of the dt770's (250 ohm) - anyone have any experience using a dedicated headphone amp (thinking about building a little cmov amp) versus the built in MBox amlifer.

Just got the Beyer's and haven't had time to play with them properly but was advised they could be difficult to drive when I bought them.

Thoughts?

[smash]

If it's a straight MBox 2, then it's running off USB, ie it is running off a total of 500 milli amps of power.

I can't imagine what pushing out a cpl of sends of headphones would do to the already really limited headroom of the Mic Pre's.

In the end you are not just talking about the sound of the cans, you are also talking about the sound of the Pre's too.

[chris p]

I reckon its horses for courses with phones & amps - depends greatly on what you're doing with them.

In my mobile rig I use a be!@#$%^& original HA4000 amp (yes, when they were made in Germany!) and for the musos cans, frankly anything - in fact I ask if they have a fav pair I get them to bring it along. Its really just got to carry the song. But I'm really at the bottom of the food chain where clients are astounded that they can get a headphone mix at all.

[Text_Edifice]

ok so now I'm wonder how much juice you need to drive a set of cans? The CMOY design runs of a 9v battery and is apparently totally worthwhile, but perhaps it's just hype. Have to build it and see I guess.

would only use the pre's in the mbox as a last resort - now have a set of AM16's to take with me.

thanks for the assistance.

[graemeh]

Drummers like the extreme isolation cans and they're so tight to wear that even the most manic drummer won't need to gaffa them on!

[astrovic]

ok so now I'm wonder how much juice you need to drive a set of cans? The CMOY design runs of a 9v battery and is apparently totally worthwhile, but perhaps it's just hype. Have to build it and see I guess.

I've built A CMOY, for use by a drummer to be able to hear a backing track and click (off an iPod) while playing live. They get pretty bloody loud, and pretty unlistenable at upper volume levels (ie ear-piercing treble), but the upper volume levels are in Townshend world anyway. As a volume boost to help a drummer hear the backing track over his own playing, it worked quite well - cerytainly loud enough! With the cost of the parts being 4/5ths of bugger all, it's worth a crack. And there are variations/other versions/improvements that can help out if required.

[Text_Edifice]

thanks for the feedback on the cmoy. will track down some parts but sounds like fidelity wise it might not be much of an improvement on the mbox headphone outs?

will have to suck it and see.

Thanks again.

[astrovic]

yeah, the cmoy is pretty much as simple as it gets - just putting an opamp to its duty. I can't imagine it would sound any better or worse - and possibly is practically the same circuit.

Jaycar will have everything you need for one.

[toadmark]

I'd say all the drummers I've had through like the extreme isolation head clamps! If they broke I'd definitely replace with same again.

[bennyboy]

hey guys dont get on this forum much but i am currently in the stage of working out and puting in a good head phone system we are currently making do with elcheapo dead ringers and l#o equivilants for now but i dont want it to be perminant as i put a set of cans on the other day and was apauled by what i heard

any sugestions on what i should do there just dosent seem like a no brainer of the shelf solution
so it looks like im gona have to get my hands dirty and atempt to build or blow up something

what i have is 3 rooms i want in the 3 rooms is room1 15 headphones /room2 4 head phones /room3 10 headphones
i want to be able to switch these over/between 4 sends/cues independantly

i have currently looked at 4 large power amps that can handle the voltage drop of this many phones and using a step down transformer or resistors is there an easier way to do this as i seem to be going around in circles and i want to have a good head phone mix in my studio

i have also looked at the hear system and aviom but i think this will just confuse my customers

[JulienG]

Not quite the right thread for it, but I actually finally ordered my new headphones to replace my ancient Sony's.

I ended up ordering two pairs, AKG K240S for daily use, and Sennheiser 650's for reference (and they were $150 off, I couldn't not do it). Along with a Total BitHead amp these should keep me going for a few years.

[rick]

i have an old beringer headphone system and it absolutly rocks, it one of the best systems ever made for studio cans
i used to highly recommend them .
however the ones you can buy today look the same but have nothing like the same circuit in side.
Andy Stewart heard mine about ten years ago and flipped out , his beringer even then was switched over to elcheapo crap .
so no doubt your system sucks , but dont feel isolated nearly every headphone system in any studio i have ever heard sucks .


if you are going to go down the power amp build out resistor route , know that many studios have been trying to get that system right for thirty years
it is hard work and in fact not as easy as a most techs will tell you .

my advice is buy two chinese tube audiophile amps off evilbay and do it with low wattage class a tube amps instead of cheap crap old pa amplifiers that every body else figures out makes sense

or buy me those tube amps and i will give you my first gen beringer head phone amp as trade

if rob squire reads this post know this when we get over the current pile ( shipped) of gear your a racking and sorting out for us i am starting on a low watt tube studio headphone system so if your bored with life, best get a head start on thinking about that :)

[JulienG]

if you are going to go down the power amp build out resistor route , know that many studios have been trying to get that system right for thirty years it is hard work and in fact not as easy as a most techs will tell you.

I like the idea that was in an old AT, use 100v line amps for shared headphones, never have tried so *shrug*.

[rob]

erk!

those early B-hinger HP amps had the smoking ingredient...headroom. Sending muso's unprocessed audio with the possibility of huge dynamic peaks requires a HP amp that can swing to something like +/-30V peak. You don't need lots of current, just the volts. You don't get that sort of headroom out of a 25watt HI-FI amp and once the build out resistors are added you get even less. I reckon if you want to do the build out thing with a power amp you should be looking at around a 100watts into 8 ohm amp.
Then there are the unbalanced inputs that lead to ground loop problems....

so a tube HP amp hey Rick....will it have meters??

Rob

[wez]

if anyone ever sees one of these tube-tech can amps can you please let me know, i've wanted one for years

...ok i'm sure you used to be able to upload pics here. oh well.

[Kris]

Purple have just released a 500 series headphone amp. Not sure if it's what you're looking for but may be worth a look.

[rick]

so you say 100 watts Rob....? thats low wattage isnt it ...?
you should see the tube amps sitting in the front of our main that are going to run our new main monitors

ie 20 x kt-88 tubes = high powered tube wattage !

will the turtlerock tube headphone system have meters..?
err, you know its not its not a question of if rob ....its a question of how many :)

[rick]

oh btw rob , i have heard a headphone system where each send ran on its own macintosh tube amplifier ( 2 stereo sends) and it was one of the smaller mac amps unbalanced in , it was the actual experience that turned me onto the "clean tube sound" as opposed to the "tube character" that everybody craps on about ,
i think they were 17 watt amps .

[rob]

I have some HP amps here waiting for someone to try them, decide they like them and then shell out a stupid amount of money and buy them. They are just a stereo HP amp with a balanced +4 input and an unbalanced -10 input and a volume control. So not that handy for tracking, but could be just the ticket for monitoring your mixes. These are very low distortion, wide bandwidth units. They'll drive any HP from 8 ohm to 600 ohm and unlike most HP amps or power amps with build out resistors have a very low output impedance. This changes the way the bass in your cans sound, as the bass control is tightened up. Just as when choosing a power amp to drive speakers we look for a low damping factor ( output impedance ) in the power amp to give tight bass control, i've applied this principle to the HP amp.
The volume control unlike most stereo volume controls tracks within +/- 0.5dB between left and right across 90% of it's range

Now back to what i was saying about headroom and volts. It's not about the watts. The 100watt amp i mentioned is specified not so you can get 100watts out of it, but so you can get the voltage swing. If a 100watt amp is driving a 32 ohm headphone through say a 47ohm build out resistor then when the amp clips, you will only be drawing .36 amps and the amp will be delivering 10 watts. But it will be delivering 28 volts RMS or a peak voltage of nearly 40 volts. This will be ear blisteringly loud and destroy most headphones if sustained. On a snare crack that lasts for milliseconds it could be just the ticket. Clipping distortion in headphones is very ugly.
Of course this is all moot unless you have good headphones to begin with.

There is the chance that the 17watt tube amps you trialled Rick were 17watts into 16ohm amps. If so, then they could deliver 16 volts RMS or 23 volts peak ( around what the B-hinger HP amps do from memory ). Plus when they clipped there is a good chance that the clipping was a bit softer than that from sand-state devices. To say nothing of the contribution of the "valve sound" to begin with.

Rob

[tall_phill]

what i have is 3 rooms i want in the 3 rooms is room1 15 headphones /room2 4 head phones /room3 10 headphones
i want to be able to switch these over/between 4 sends/cues independantly

i have currently looked at 4 large power amps that can handle the voltage drop of this many phones and using a step down transformer or resistors is there an easier way to do this as i seem to be going around in circles and i want to have a good head phone mix in my studio

Im currently on tour mixing a theatre show where all front of house audio is delivered to the audience via headphones. If you chose to go down this path the following may help you:

We use 4 output distro boxes made by proco. They have volume pots and stereo / mono switches. The volume pots are 100 ohm, and the build out resistors are around 50 ohms from memory. These boxes have seen a few years of touring and they are quite robust. We have had problems with one, once in the time I have been mixing the show (all year). main in and out are on xlr. cables are 3 core power cables terminated in xlr. I am sure you could build equivalent boxes easily, I know I could, but these work quite well (Though I have been thinking of opening them all and removing the volume pots from the circuit as they are only a source of error for us).

According to the maths of the sound designer, we can run 28 pairs of 32 ohm headphones on an amp that can drive 2 ohms.

The only potential trick is the negatives terminals of the power amps are tied which some amps don't like (lab.gruppen fp+ for instance). True Earth Negative amps will be a-ok with this.

Depending on the voltage gain of the amp I run 20dB or 30dB pads on the outputs of the mixing desk (then usually pull the attenuators on the amps back a bit).

Its not a truly hifi system, but compared to 99% of sound reinforcement systems, its pretty nice to mix on.

[Luke Garfield]

Just to throw in 2c and a less known brand. I picked up a set of EP 3070's by Equation Audio while over in the states the 1st time. They were cheap as (bottom of the line) but are built really well (folding design), have a 3m cable removable with gold plated jacks on both ends, great isolation and are fairly accurate in the bottom end and not to taxing on the top end. The price? $30 US!! I kid you not, these are awesome headphones for the price.

I was going to post about them on the forum a while back buuut got side tracked.

If you're interested I could help out with aquiring you some (or anyone else for that matter). Not sure if they have distro in Oz. PM me.

http://www.equationaudio.com/Alpha/alpha-eartools.htm (actually first time I'd been to the site - they have other goodies that I might check out hmmm)

Cheers,

Luke.

[Ausrock]

Luke,

First off, Matt said to say Hi if I saw you around here. I think he was catching up with Pete this evening then going to catch a reformed Luna Rodent (think about it :-)......) at the Cambo.

Audio Chocolate in Melb handle some of the Equation Audio range but only the "Pro Series" cans are on their website, prices start at $119 for the RP-10 up to $229 for the RP-22X.

ChrisO

[rick]

benny boy turned up at the studio the other day and i was locked down on a session so i did not have any time to talk , i gave him my old beringer headphone amp to try and asked him, to report back ,
was it different to yours ben ...?
does it solve any problems or just cause some more ?

have i started a run on the "classic" beringer headphone amps ,
or was it a piece of audio crap like the rest of the beringer empire ...?

stay tuned ....

[chris p]

have i started a run on the "classic" beringer headphone amps

Sure hope so. I have one and will gladly swap it for a pair of racked Neve 1072s.

[rick]

i am yet to see a neve 1072 chris
you better quit the search while your nevitis
is still in its "hey but those numbers don't quite match up stage " :)

[Ausrock]

Would someone care to offer a clear (and simple) explanation of how you use a power amp for headphone feeds.

:-)